My verdict on the 190E AMG 6.0
12-04-2007, 04:57 PM
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1966 250SE Cab, 1985 500SE Euro, 1985 190e 2.3-16 AMG, 1986 300E LeMons Car
My verdict on the 190E AMG 6.0
Reference: http://www.geocities.com/shvoldum/conversions/amg.html
Since I’m collecting AMGs lately, I thought I’d investigate this red 190E AMG 6.0 that pops up every few years - it was on ebay in 2005 and it was on craigslist early in November. If it was real, then I’d buy it and restore it to its formal glory – if proven to be BS, then I have no interest in it.
• The Seller (I’ll keep his name private) is a used car dealer in New Hampshire – and not a very reputable one. He’s had that car for a very long time, and there are lots and lots of stories about his rudeness. I even found a disgruntled customer who was given the business card of the Seller with the name “Gary Sunshine” on it – “Sunshine” is the name of the Seller’s boat – what kind of used car salesman has fake business cards? The Seller is trouble, but that doesn't mean the car isn't real.
• The engine was recently rebuilt by a local engine shop in Dover – they used forged pistons, billet crankshaft, billet camshafts, and polished/ported heads. I never got to speak to that engine shop to see if they rebuilt what was already there, or if they got an M117 block and made it themselves, but the Seller says that the engine shop "rebuilt the engine" - implying the M117 was already in the car at that time.
• The VIN (WDBDA28D4HF330118) comes back as a 1987 190E 2.3 in tan metallic over tan. Since this car has 16v seats and 16v center gauges, I was sure this car was a 16v that was converted, and then had the primary gauge cluster swapped back to the 2.3 to hide the mileage (you can see “cluster scrapes” on some pics I have). Now, I don’t know. Perhaps the VIN the Seller supplied is wrong, and perhaps this was originally a 2.3 that was painted red and given a black interior. Yeeesh. How many real miles are on this car? God knows.
• Comparing the body kit to an ‘80s AMG catalog I have, I think the body kit is a real wide-body kit. It looks identical to the catalog, but it still could be an exact forgery – they’re out there. Since the engine was expensive as hell, I’d bet the kit was real.
• Buxbaum, the ex-head of AMG of North America, says he is 99% certain that AMG Germany didn’t build that car, and he’s 100% certain AMG of NA didn’t build it.
• Hartmut Feyhl, head of RennTech, says that (1) AMG never built a 190E with a V8, (2) he doubts the 6.0 was an AMG engine because AMG never had forged pistons because they were too noisy and had high oil consumption, and (3) AMG never used billet cams or crankshafts nor had stainless exhaust systems (handmade mild steel only).
Someone spent a lot of money on that 190E AMG 6.0, but its history is completely undocumented, the Seller is a documented jerk, and the engine rebuild wasn’t done all that well as evidenced by the leaky head gaskets. If the VIN the Seller gave to me is accurate, the car is a 1987 190E 2.3 that had a real AMG body kit put on it, then had the engine yanked and installed the highly modified M117 including a stainless exhaust – all of this done at some monstrous expense – and had the whole car painted red and a whole new black interior installed. If the Seller gave me the wrong VIN, then we're back to he's a documented jerk who can't be trusted.
Who originally commissioned this work and who installed all that stuff? The seller has no history on the car, so he doesn't know. Not AMG of NA, that’s for certain – they’ve never even heard of a 190E with a V8. Someone spent a lot of money on that car, and it’s an absolute killer toy for someone who has lots of time to play with getting it right, but it was never built by AMG, and I would think that level of work would require some input from AMG Germany or AMG or NA.
That's the results of my investigation.
Since I’m collecting AMGs lately, I thought I’d investigate this red 190E AMG 6.0 that pops up every few years - it was on ebay in 2005 and it was on craigslist early in November. If it was real, then I’d buy it and restore it to its formal glory – if proven to be BS, then I have no interest in it.
• The Seller (I’ll keep his name private) is a used car dealer in New Hampshire – and not a very reputable one. He’s had that car for a very long time, and there are lots and lots of stories about his rudeness. I even found a disgruntled customer who was given the business card of the Seller with the name “Gary Sunshine” on it – “Sunshine” is the name of the Seller’s boat – what kind of used car salesman has fake business cards? The Seller is trouble, but that doesn't mean the car isn't real.
• The engine was recently rebuilt by a local engine shop in Dover – they used forged pistons, billet crankshaft, billet camshafts, and polished/ported heads. I never got to speak to that engine shop to see if they rebuilt what was already there, or if they got an M117 block and made it themselves, but the Seller says that the engine shop "rebuilt the engine" - implying the M117 was already in the car at that time.
• The VIN (WDBDA28D4HF330118) comes back as a 1987 190E 2.3 in tan metallic over tan. Since this car has 16v seats and 16v center gauges, I was sure this car was a 16v that was converted, and then had the primary gauge cluster swapped back to the 2.3 to hide the mileage (you can see “cluster scrapes” on some pics I have). Now, I don’t know. Perhaps the VIN the Seller supplied is wrong, and perhaps this was originally a 2.3 that was painted red and given a black interior. Yeeesh. How many real miles are on this car? God knows.
• Comparing the body kit to an ‘80s AMG catalog I have, I think the body kit is a real wide-body kit. It looks identical to the catalog, but it still could be an exact forgery – they’re out there. Since the engine was expensive as hell, I’d bet the kit was real.
• Buxbaum, the ex-head of AMG of North America, says he is 99% certain that AMG Germany didn’t build that car, and he’s 100% certain AMG of NA didn’t build it.
• Hartmut Feyhl, head of RennTech, says that (1) AMG never built a 190E with a V8, (2) he doubts the 6.0 was an AMG engine because AMG never had forged pistons because they were too noisy and had high oil consumption, and (3) AMG never used billet cams or crankshafts nor had stainless exhaust systems (handmade mild steel only).
Someone spent a lot of money on that 190E AMG 6.0, but its history is completely undocumented, the Seller is a documented jerk, and the engine rebuild wasn’t done all that well as evidenced by the leaky head gaskets. If the VIN the Seller gave to me is accurate, the car is a 1987 190E 2.3 that had a real AMG body kit put on it, then had the engine yanked and installed the highly modified M117 including a stainless exhaust – all of this done at some monstrous expense – and had the whole car painted red and a whole new black interior installed. If the Seller gave me the wrong VIN, then we're back to he's a documented jerk who can't be trusted.
Who originally commissioned this work and who installed all that stuff? The seller has no history on the car, so he doesn't know. Not AMG of NA, that’s for certain – they’ve never even heard of a 190E with a V8. Someone spent a lot of money on that car, and it’s an absolute killer toy for someone who has lots of time to play with getting it right, but it was never built by AMG, and I would think that level of work would require some input from AMG Germany or AMG or NA.
That's the results of my investigation.
Last edited by POS; 12-04-2007 at 05:02 PM.
12-06-2007, 11:25 AM
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Thanks for the update. It would be a really cool car if gone through and done correctly...documented, pics, etc.
The sad part is AMG doesn't have a lot of records of work completed before Mercedes bought them because most of the work was done at independent shops, etc.
Thanks again for sharing all your hard work.
I have recently been thinking about a 190 16v Evo II as a new toy. One with a 5.5 would be a great play thing.
Mick
The sad part is AMG doesn't have a lot of records of work completed before Mercedes bought them because most of the work was done at independent shops, etc.
Thanks again for sharing all your hard work.
I have recently been thinking about a 190 16v Evo II as a new toy. One with a 5.5 would be a great play thing.
Mick
12-08-2007, 03:34 AM
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2008 S63=AMG: Black (Savanna/Cashmere) Kleeman Delimited 200MPH
How are you going to get a 190 16v Evo II imported? I was unaware there were any in the states.
I will take one if you find two of them.
I will take one if you find two of them.
Thanks for the update. It would be a really cool car if gone through and done correctly...documented, pics, etc.
The sad part is AMG doesn't have a lot of records of work completed before Mercedes bought them because most of the work was done at independent shops, etc.
Thanks again for sharing all your hard work.
I have recently been thinking about a 190 16v Evo II as a new toy. One with a 5.5 would be a great play thing.
Mick
The sad part is AMG doesn't have a lot of records of work completed before Mercedes bought them because most of the work was done at independent shops, etc.
Thanks again for sharing all your hard work.
I have recently been thinking about a 190 16v Evo II as a new toy. One with a 5.5 would be a great play thing.
Mick
