Mike5215

Hi all. I'm generally on the W221 (S Class) forum answering audio questions, but I was contacted via PM the owner of a 2011 E Class and I decided to answer here in the event other E/C/CLS Class owners are interested.

My experiences with upgrading my S550 Harman Kardon Logic 7 into a killer system are chronicled in the blog (link is in my sig), but virtually all Logic 7 systems of the same era use identical components in identical configurations. I'll get into the E Class Sedan here:





Harman Kardon uses the same 600 watt 14 channel DSP Audio Gateway in most of its Logic 7 installations in Mercedes and BMW. It also uses the same array of speakers, with some minor variations between sedans and coupes, and some minor variations between models. There is also a version of amplification with a 450 watt main amp/DSP and a 160 watt booster amp.

The 80mm are 4" midrange speakers, and they sound hollow and thin. Harman Kardon must of gotten a hell of a deal on these since they're all over the car. Two in the front doors, two more on the rear deck as surround sound and one more for good measure on the dash as a center channel.

The 43mm tweeters are your basic off-the-shelf 2" silk dome tweeters. Nothing special and nothing objectionable either. There are two in the front door (mirror sail panel), two in the rear door.

The 165mm (6.5") woofers in the front and rear doors are made from the same cone material (Alumaprene) as the 4" midrange, but aren't as objectionable since they're not as bright.

The 8 x 10" oval dual voice coil shallow mount subwoofer on the rear deck is the best performing speaker of the bunch, but not without a different EQ and amplification.

(The S Class varies from the E only in that the front doors also get shallow mount 8" dual coil subwoofers instead of the 6.5" woofers in the E, so the upgrade path and tuning will be similar)

I think the system proposed in the PM by the shop is a bit of overkill, and unnecessarily expensive. They have the right idea though. Here's how I would approach it:

Instead of the Audison Bit One, which is a terrific stand alone DSP (digital signal processor), plus a stand-alone four channel amp, and an additional 600 watt mono amp to a ported 12" subwoofer box in the trunk:

-Use an Audison Prima 8.9 DSP amp. It's a great DSP, and an 8.1 channel amp in one. It's about the size of a hardcover book, runs very cool and gives you the advanced signal processing capabilities of the Bit One without the need for a separate amp.

-Take the unpowered 9th channel from the Prima as a subwoofer out to a smaller (300 watt) mono sub amp, and then to the factory sub. No box.

Every shop I spoke to about my Logic 7 system and the Prima was worried about three things.

1) There are 14 channels coming out of the Harman/Kardon amp, and the Prima only has 8. What happens to the orphaned speakers?

You're going to configure the Prima's eight powered channels as follows:

1) Left front door woofer
2) Right front door woofer
3) Left front door midrange
4) Right front door midrange
5) Left front door tweeter
6) Right front door tweeter
7/8) Left rear door woofer/tweeter on a crossover
9/10) Right rear door woofer/tweeter on a crossover

The un-powered 9th channel is out to a sub amp.

The orphaned speakers remain on the factory amp:

11) Center dash midrange
12) Left rear deck midrange
13) Right rear deck midrange


2) The factory amp is rated for 600 watts. The Prima is 35 watts x 8 (280). What if it's not enough to drive the speakers?

A huge chunk of the factory amp's 600 watts is going to the rear deck sub, which is a stout little power hungry mo fo. The cabin speakers are actually low power handlers (high efficiency) and a good match for the Prima.

The Prima 8.9 configured the way I have it here is easily twice as loud as the factory amp. Power is not a problem.

3) How do you blend the orphaned speakers still on the factory amp with those on the Prima?

Not an issue. The three orphaned surround speakers put out very little signal relative to the rest of the cabin speakers to begin with, and the Prima has enough power to overcome them, so its just a matter of deciding how much of them you want to let in. They of course still respond to the tone controls in COMAND, but I push Bass/Treble to full to give the Prima the most possible signal to work with.

Other considerations:

Do I need to replace the speakers?

No, but you do need to apply sound deadening material to the inside of the doors which necessitates pulling the interior door panels off. Once you're in there, it's a simple matter to replace the speakers but not required.

I'd recommend a nice efficient 6" two way component system for all of the doors. I use Hertz DSK 165.3, $149 a set at Amazon, but any efficient 6.5" two way will work and drop right in. Leave the 4" mid ranges alone.


You also need to deaden the rear deck, because that sub will pound away in this config.


Is it hard to configure the Prima?


The initial config is done by the installer. That includes setting the physical preset (Preset 5 in this case), and running the de equalization. The tuning is done by connecting a Windows laptop to the Prima via USB and running their software. There are some factory tuning configs built in to the software that are good starting points, the rest by ear. Or download my config file from the blog and work from there.

Each channel on the Prima gets this level of signal processing:




Should I just tear out the factory amp and start fresh?

Not feasible. The amp is a combination of a gateway (controller) for all of the audio in the car...telephone, Navi, voice control, etc, a digital signal processor and a 14 channel amplifier. It receives input via a single fiber optic cable, so you can't access the signal from the pre-amp side. Your only option really is to leave the amp alone, pull speaker level signals from it and then add DSP and amplification.

Cost:

Prima 8.9 $900
JL Sub Amp $300
Labor $600

Difference vs Stock:

There is no comparison. My S was in for service on Monday, and I had an annoying rattle I wanted diagnosed. I had two service writers (one was in training) and a mechanic ride around with me listening for the rattle. One of the writers joked, "Can't you just turn up the radio?", at which point I turned up the radio. Aside from the Focal tweets that are flush mounted there are no visual cues that the system isn't stock. "Holy crap! What's in this thing?!" was the first guy's reaction. The other guys wanted to know what music I had. Do you have any Eagles? (played some Eagles) How about Boston? How about Aerosmith?

So the four of us are sitting in the car, in the service lane just blasting the audio system for a solid fifteen minutes. It reminded me of high school except of course nobody brought any weed.

For me, the difference transformed the car's driving experience completely, and if you love great audio and hate your stock H/K system, spend the money and get the Prima.

Yaadman_AMG

This is awesome info!! Thanks for posting.

Do you happen to have a wiring guide specific to how you wired in the Prima 8.9 into the speaker level inputs or however you did it? Looking for wire colors and locations.

Mike5215

I have them for the 221, I'll see if I can find them for the E.

Yaadman_AMG

Coo. I actually have a W218 CLS63 but im assuming the E63 would have the same wiring?

Mike5215

Probably but with MB who knows? Your local Audison retailer will have access to the wiring schematic and color codes for your specific car though. I'll still try to hunt them down for the 212 and 218.

Mike5215

Ok, so for whatever reason the CLS is different from the E in a couple of ways:

http://mercedes.harmankardon.com/en/...technical.aspx

Instead of using a 6.5" woofer in all four doors as in the E, the CLS substitutes a 6" subwoofer in the front doors. The specs claim the 6" subs are Alumaprene, so it does not appear these are just smaller versions of the 8" dual coil subs in the doors of the S Class, and the specs don't indicate that they're dual coil either. These appear to simply be stouter versions of the regular 6.5" woofer, fed a lower frequency band.

In other words, I would treat them like a regular woofer on the Prima, but experiment with feeding them more bottom to see what they're comfortable handling. Less a true subwoofer and more a woofer with an enhanced low frequency range, and likely more power handling.

The other difference is that where the E gets the standard 600 watt DSP amp, the CLS gets a 450 watt main amp and then a 160 watt "booster" on the rear shelf. No idea the rationale for that. I would guess given its location that the booster is for the rear shelf subwoofer but your installer would need to verify that. It doesn't change anything as far as the Prima is concerned, but it could save you some money if that's a dedicated sub amp with conventional low level inputs (not fiber optic) since that could be substituted for the separate sub amp and fed signal from the Prima.

Yaadman_AMG

Nice. Thanks for digging that info up. I think Ill first start by getting the car acoustically sound with deadening material just about everywhere and then plan out the system.


I'll look into Audison dealers/installers in my area and see what they have and how to go about improving on the factory system.

Mike5215

Maybe it would make sense to start with a budget and let that dictate your strategy. The basic Prima install plus the extra sub amp with labor should run you around $2k out the door. You may find there's enough processing power in the Prima to get the results you want from the factory speakers without ever cracking open a door panel.

Don't pull the door panels off until you know what you're doing with speakers. No sense paying the labor and the wear and tear on the car if you're going to have to go back in again later.

The "safe" route from the shops standpoint will be the one in the OP... Bit One + multichannel amp+Sub amp and box. Mine was the first S Class the shop had done a Prima in and everyone was a little nervous about the power output, how the stock sub would perform on the JL amp, how the tuning would go with the orphaned channels. We had a Bit One, amps and a sub box on hand if it turned out the Prima wasn't cutting it but it ended up being the right call.

It won't be the shops first call, so show them the write up in my blog. It'll cost you less than half what the "safe" route will be. Good luck!

jbondox

Hate to tell you this, but the E class and the S class are completely different. The S class amp is the audio gateway and the E class 2009+ audio gateway is in the COMAND.

the prima is a decent amp but there is a lot more to be desired from it. 09 and above e/cls/sls/c/g/ml/gl we take the factory most amp out of the loop and code for no amp, the comand puts out a pretty solid 4 channel 20-20k signal which
a) you can use a bit 10 or an alpine h800 for EQ if you want
b) skip the whole processor and run an alpine pdx9 5 channel amp to the factory sub and the factory front speakers with a passive x-over network or replace them with aftermarket

you can't truthfully believe that retaining the center off the factory amp and adding aftermarket amp is going to work or even sound correct!?! acoustically impossible and physics is the **** block on it. x-over points, and time alignment alone is the give away.

the center on the 221 is robust, and a ***** to replace, but done it several times utilizing both a Hertz Mille and the hi Energy 70 mm. further once you turn on Logic 7 or put a DVD in with DTS decoding the EQ is out the window

done way too many audio systems to these vehicles to believe your voodoo

Mike5215

__________________

I want to make sure I'm following you. You propose eliminating the existing factory 14 channel DSP amp with active crossovers in favor of coming out of the HU directly with 4 channels line level, and then adding a processor, or an EQ, or a 5 channel amp and passive crossovers. And maybe aftermarket speakers.

Getting 4 channels from the original 14.

And this is somehow preferable in your mind to taking 9 channels from the factory amp, running them thru the Prima for post processing and amplification, and then back out to 11 of the speakers, leaving 3 speakers on the factory amp, and retaining all 14 channels. What am I missing?

With respect to the sin of leaving the center channel on the Harman amp:

It's not robust at all. It's the same flimsy 4" Alumaprene speaker as the ones in the doors and on the rear shelf. It's probably a pain to replace given its location, but it's nothing special.

As far as blending the center fill on the Harman with the tweets and mids being on the Prima, have you never configured one of these? Have a look at the screen grab in the OP. Each tweeter and mid on the Prima can be adjusted for time correction (red outline), level (bright blue outline), equalization(blue outline) and cross-over point (actually band pass, lo pass, hi pass or through) (yellow outline) Trust me, with that degree of control it's not difficult at all to compensate for time alignment or EQ, or any other aspect of the physics. It doesn't require voo doo, just a trained ear and an understanding of the equipment.





As far as DVD DD or DTS playback, in my system nothing changes as far as multi channel decoding. The factory amp is still handling all of that as it normally would. The Prima is just intercepting the signal at the end of the chain and passing it on to the speakers. I use the Logic 7 for music as well so the system is tuned for surround, but DVDs play back fine.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

jbondox

Absolutely! The sound quality is amazing preferred to taking an adulterated signal that is dsp'd then adding 3 speakers to get the full range audio like I would have on the E doing it my way. You then have to have the Prima de-eq the signal which is more processing the audio signal.... where my signal is not like that, it is clean and unmolested.

so this is your signal : already dsp'd, combining 3 speakers to get a full range signal, dsp'd then de-eq'd, then eq'd again....

Vs mine 20-20k hz +/- 3db straight out of the source. I win! Same thing with Porsche vehicles also. I usually the bit10 because of the small size, don't need to de-eq....

BTW been doing audio since 92, had great mentors, and great friends that have recording studios for hi-end audio, so I do understand what it should sound like, not to mention 7 years at MB!

Mike5215

It actually sounds a lot like a system I had back in 1992. So you're full range out of the HU, 4 channels. Are those the traditional LF/RF/LR/RR?

You'd come off the HU into the Bit 10, do whatever DSP it needs, or into an analog EQ, then pass those 4 channels to an outboard 5 channel amp. 4 out to the doors, and one channel out for the sub

In the front doors you'd use a 3 way passive crossover for the woofer, mid and tweeter. In the rear doors you'd use a 2 way passive crossover for the woofer and mid. The center and rear surround speakers are deleted I guess.

So it's your basic old school 4 channel analog system with traditional passive crossovers , 3 way components in the doors, 2 way components in the rear doors and a sub in the trunk. No Dolby Digital, DTS, or Logic 7 3D sound. Honestly, that's a tried and true formula for car audio that's been around for decades so I can't recommend against it, especially having never heard your install.

Labor wise, you're running RCA cable x 4 from the dash to the trunk. Then 4 speaker wire runs from the trunk back to each door. Plus 12v. With the Prima you're using the existing speaker wires so it's just a matter of getting 12v to the trunk. Unless you're replacing speakers there's no need to open the interior door panels. You've got to build the cross overs and find a place for them in each door, not necessary with the Prima. If you're not happy with your cross over points or roll off you need to physically change the crossovers vs a couple of mouse clicks on the Prima.

If I hadn't been introduced to Audison DSP gear at my shop, that's probably the system I'd envisioned, especially if it was possible to pull flat, line level x4 off the factory HU. You're right. The concept of digitizing an analog speaker level signal, dropping the voltage back to line level, applying a convolution filter, applying equalization, a band pass filter, and time correction in real time and then putting that through an onboard 9 channel amp sounds like a recipe for artifacts and colorization. Crazy, right?

But here's the thing...it works. Beautifully. The sound quality is also amazing. It's so easy to tune the entire system with a laptop, experiment with different configs and either save them or reload the default. It's the future, baby.

In the S, where there's no way to get analog signal from the HU, it's a great option that drastically reduces your parts list. One unit, no external amp, no passive crossovers, and all 14 channels are preserved. I would recommend it without hesitation to anyone with a Harman Kardon Logic 7 system.

Now, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, having never heard your system, that I would like the way it sounds. Give me the same courtesy. You're not the only human being on the planet with a long background in music, studio recording, pro sound and car audio.

dirtyguido

So I have read this thread with great interest....

I have NEVER been impressed with the MB HK system. This is our 3rd MB with it. First my 2011 E550, then our 2013 E350, and now I just picked up a 2013 CLS550 4matic (which is the car I wanted all along). This car is CPO till 4/13/18 with unlimited mileage so I'm going to have it for at least the 2.5 years.

My primary complaint with the HK system is that there isn't enough low end punch, and it becomes a buzzy rattly mess when pushed. I'm actually afraid of blowing the rear sub or one of the door woofers. The HK system in our Range Rover HSE kicked butt! That has to be one of the BEST factory stereos I have ever heard out of the box.

My initial thought with my CLS was to add an amp and a sub box with a pair of sealed 10's in the trunk. I did that with decent results in my old BMW e60 535i. It filled the low end in.. I don't listen to music at ear splitting volumes anymore. I don't need bass the neighbors can feel or that you can hear approaching down the block, but the reinforcing of the bottom end gives a much more stout and powerful feel to the stereo, even at moderate volumes.

From my taking notes on what you guys have said. I'm thinking of approaching this in two phases. First adding the aforementioned subs, and see how they fill out the bottom end. Then if that doesn't make the stereo palatable, going the full replacement route. I really don't want to tear the car apart if I don't have to. With the battery in the trunk, the install seems like it would be pretty straightforward.

1) the CLS uses a different setup than the W220 S Class - one amp driving the interior speakers and a separate "booster" amp driving the rear deck sub. IF one were to add an extra sub amp, and a pair of subs - would you disconnect the stock rear deck sub? Will this cause any problems with the setup? I know you guys are talking about gutting the entire stereo and using that audison amp with the DSP etc, but I don't know if I want to get into the stereo that far yet.

2) Apparently the CLS can be "coded" using the star diag to "amp not present" and you can get a line level signal out of the command unit. - That would probably be the way I would go if I were to gut the car. - would this interfere with any of the other stuff - nav, bt phone, streaming etc?

Thanks in advance,

George

Mershady_925

Wow. This discussion has really heated up. Thank you Mike5215 for the detailed write up and advice.

To address your initial opinion on the the proposed system being "overkill". I fully agree. And thats what i'm going for . I know many benz owners aren't in to big boomy systems you can hear down the block but thats exactly what i'm going for. I need the deep bass that the stock sub, no matter how well amplified, can deliver.

I have already pulled the trigger on the Audison Bit One so that will be utilized. And talking to the shop again, to get use of the center channel, I will be using a JL Audio XD600/6 channel amp for the doors, rear deck and center channel.

and

A dedicated JL Audio XD600/1 channel amp for the aftermarket sub. And removing the factory sub of course. Plus sound deadening in the trunk.

The shop mentioned they will also be building their own crossovers, and also utilizing the factory amp. I really have no idea how this is going to all be wired up but I will leave it up to the shop to figure out.

This is all going to cost a lot but in the end, i believe it will be worth it.

Mike5215

Sorry for the massive edit. I got unnecessarily long winded. I want to make sure I understand the shop's proposal completely.

How do they plan to assign the 6 powered channels on the XD600/6? It sounds like they plan on going one channel to each front door 3 way with a passive crossover (2 channels), one channel to each rear door 2 way passive (2 channels). That leaves two channels for the center, left rear surround, right rear surround and sub (4 more channels). It seems like they're short.

Could you post the price breakdown parts and labor for the shops proposal? I think I can get you better results with the same or less money with fewer amps, processors and crossovers and redirect that money into upgrading a few key cabin speakers. Are you stuck with the Bit One or can it be exchanged?

Mike5215

Hey George

For the sake of clarity, the Prima would be the least invasive (no gut job) solution. It was designed as an OEM integration unit specifically for cars like ours with deeply integrated infotainment systems. The entire install can take place in the trunk without ever cracking open a door panel or running any new speaker wires. You're just intercepting the speaker signal coming from the OEM amp, processing it and sending it back out thru the factory wiring to the speakers. That Windows config interface is a little intimidating, but there are preloaded tuning maps for each type of configuration you can select, and modify as well. Really the downside of the Prima is the cost at $900 plus another $600 or so in installation labor.

We do seem to have the same taste in audio. You want fidelity, clarity and punch. You want to feel the bass drum hit, but the bass guitar needs to be full, tight and precise too. You want the mids, the vocals, guitars and keys, to be smooth and clear but not tinny or hollow. You want the highs to be pure and distinct without peeling your scalp off. I feel ya, brother.

The HK has a couple of problems. No low end, as you mentioned, but also a very shrill, hollow and bright mid range. That's what's destroying the sound. If you push the volume up to get the bass to wake up, the mids come up as well. You'll never win. The question for me was, is the shrillness and over emphasis the fault of the midrange speakers themselves, or the built in factory EQ? It turned out to be a bit of both, but the EQ, and the way the factory amp assigned levels (too much to the mids, not enough to the low end) was far and away the main culprit. You can get an unbelievable level of performance out of the HK speakers with the right EQ and levels. I honestly think MB intentionally choked them back to prevent customer complaints about rattles, which is why the sound deadening is necessary. The sub on the rear deck was my favorite surprise. Put it on its own 300 watt amp and it will pound away like a jackhammer if you want. It's natural to hear that stock system and think the speakers are junk, but they're really not.

Now you can add a sub box (and remove the factory sub to vent the trunk to the cabin space) and put so much signal in it that it allows you to get the bottom end on top of the shrill mids and highs, essentially drowning them out a bit in favor of more lows. I tried that as well. As I mentioned in the previous post, a sub is happiest with a tight cut off. Once you start pushing it into mid bass turf, which you'll need to do, even a sealed cabinet will get loose and boomy. It's just physics.

As for recoding the HU for no amp and building an analog 4 channel system from scratch, you're getting very little control. Basically the Bass and Treble controls on the HU, and those haven't done you any good so far, right? Yes, you could add a physical equalizer unit, adding the potential for noise at the same time, as well as cost and complexity. Plus the outboard amps. Plus the crossovers. And taking a 14 channel DSP surround system and making it into a 4 channel analog system. No thanks.

If right now, you prefer the Logic 7 3D sound to be toggled "on" for music listening (even though it makes an already bright sound a little brighter), don't do a 4 channel gut job. Save yourself the expense of new amps and speakers and wiring and do an OEM integration unit like the Prima. It's built to solve our exact problem, while being as non-invasive to the car as possible. When it's time to trade, remove it, reconnect the factory speaker wires in the trunk and put it in your next car. If its a Mercedes, it'll probably need it.

It is tempting to take the system upgrade in small bites. Maybe just add a sub. Maybe just swap out the front door speakers. I wish I had just bitten the bullet and paid for the Prima up front instead of dicking around with two years worth of half measures and getting a little closer each time but never getting what I really wanted. Two hours of tuning the Prima and I was done. Haven't touched COMAND Bass, Treble or Fader since. Nirvana for audio geeks. Nothing feels quite as satisfying as clicking a mouse and dragging those horrible shrill mids down to the basement. Or pushing up the lows as far as you'd ever want or need and have them sound great.

My rec is still Prima 8.9, 3 way active front, 2 way passive rear, sub channel out to a 300 watt mono amp then to the factory sub. On the CLS, the only change would be that you'd pull your sub signal input from the powered side of the "booster" amp rather than the powered side of the main amp. No net difference.

No gut job, no new speakers, no sub box, no new speaker wiring, all 14 channels intact, easy to undo and put the car back to stock. If for some reason the factory sub isn't cutting it, you can always add in the box, but I'll bet you a case of scotch that you won't want to.

PS

I know I'm coming across as a Prima sales rep on commission, but I can't emphasize enough how thrilled I am to get into the car every morning knowing how phenomenal the stereo system is since the Prima went in. It really transformed the driving experience, and in an S Class that's no small thing.

I'm in Gainesville, Florida. If anyone is in the area, or in Jax, Orlando or Tampa and would like to audition my system, just PM me.

dirtyguido

Hey Mike,

Thanks for your insight. I agree that the prima is prob the BEST way to approach things... Here's where I'm at in my mind.

Right now here's where my stereo is set:

Treble flat, Bass +1, Fader +2 towards the front (I'm pretty tall so I sit far back and otherwise the image gets pulled to the rear) and the Logic 7/ Surround processing off. I actually can't stand the effect, to me it sounds distorted and almost like nails on a chalk board. It's an over processed mess almost like you are running a song through a compression formula similar to what FM radio broadcasts use to limit dynamic range, and in turn bandwidth. Then they add a bit of a time delay / echo to the mix which while designed to create a broader sense of space to me just sounds unnatural. - Call me old school LOL.

The only thing I've done so far is played with my mac and my music collection a bit (all 320kbps mp3), I managed to get a Toshiba Canvio 1tb hdd formatted to exFAT, and got the MB stereo to recognize it and catalog the MP3's. I have about 40gb of music on it currently, and although I think it takes a while to organize and index initially it seems to be working fine. I wonder if I will hit a wall over a certain amount of music / files. We'll see.

Maybe I'm falling into the trap that you describe of doing it in bits and pieces... But here was my thought process. My biggest gripe is the sheer lack of low end. IF I had to fix one thing about the stereo that would be it. I agree your approach fixes the ENTIRE setup.

I actually considered leaving the stock sub in place (possibly disconnected), but adding a pair of 10" subs in the trunk running off an aftermarket amp. Not to try to drown out the midrange by virtue of overpowering it with midbass, but to fill out the bottom end. It seems any info below about 65hz causes the stock sub (and the midbass drivers in the doors) distress. I don't know if there is a resonant frequency around there, or if the enclosure sucks but I can tell you specific songs and notes where the rear sub is gonna rattle, when the front doors are gonna rattle a bit, or when the rear doors are gonna rattle.

I was planning on crossing over the subs in the trunk @ 80hz using a 12db / octave active xover. Just to fill in the low end. Give the stereo the grunt it just doesn't have. My car has fold down seats so the trunk shouldn't be sealed, and that low frequency bass should still find it's way into the cabin. Im iffy about removing the rear sub to vent the enclosure bc you start to get weird transfer functions by essentially creating a bandpass enclosure, where the trunk is the front chamber and the vent into the cabin acts as a port.

Which brings me to my next question. DO you know any of the factory crossover points, and or impedances of the speakers.
My next thought was to take a BIT of the stress off the factory door midbass drivers, and I don't really think they have a high pass filter on them on the low end. I was considering using some filter capacitors to try to tone down the extreme bottom end that they just cant handle anyway.

I have only had this car for a week, so more to come as I do more research and consider more things. BTW - I can't find an audison dealer anywhere. Is that Prima amp still around? I looked on ebay and the only thing I could find was an Italian seller with a bunch of them.

Take care,

George

Mike5215

I did my Prima install this summer so as far as I can tell it's still an active product for Audison, and Audison itself is massive...into DSPs, monsterously powerful and expensive amps and their own multiple lines of speakers as well. Check Audison.com and I'm sure they have a list of authorized dealers on there.

Bits and pieces are fine, as long as you can use the gear you've accumulated in the final set up.

The HK speakers are all standard 4 ohm. No idea on the factory crossovers. The 6.5" "subwoofers" in the CLS front doors will be a standard 4 hole mount, so depending on depth, any 6.5" will work. Those might be a key target for replacement if they're struggling on the low end. Something like these might do the trick:

http://www.parts-express.com/goldwoo...4-ohm--290-351

I had a set of these on the rear shelf of a 2005 GTO and I loved them. They hit like crazy. Not sure the mounting depth on the CLS enclosure. When I did the S I bought several used OEM speaker modules on EBay so I could test fit aftermarket speakers (and listen to them) in the factory modules before I tore the car open and installed something I wasn't sure about.

If your preferred source are MP3s, have a look at the Glovebox EQ mod in the blog:

https://w221audio.wordpress.com/2014...ve-box-eq-mod/

You'd need to put your library on a player of some sort with a headphone jack. Essentially you put a little 12v Clarion EQ unit in the glovebox, come out of your MP3 player into the EQ, then out of the EQ and into the car's Aux In. Draw 12v from the outlet in the glovebox (presuming the CLS has Aux in and 12v in there). Under $100.

Then you have a 7 band equalizer you can fiddle with to compensate for the factory EQ, bump up the lows, push down the mids, etc before the signal ever gets to the factory amp. Not the most elegant solution in the world but it does make a significant improvement and you can't beat the price. If it seems like that's a step in the right direction, then the Audison would be the next big step. I listened to that set up for a couple of years and was happy with it. Ultimately I wanted to also be able to get EQ globally so I could use the Bluetooth audio, an SD card etc and that led to the Prima. Along the way I had added a $750 set of Focal front components, Hertz rear door components and lots of Hushmat, so none of that bits and pieces money was ultimately wasted.

Agree if the car has fold down rear seats (and you don't usually need the rear seats) a powered sub in the trunk can't hurt. I've installed Infinity BassLink units in both my 220 and 221 S Class. The built in amp is efficient enough to draw power from the trunk, and that's where you'll find the OEM sub's speaker leads to tap into for signal as well, so it's a fairly painless install. It has a 10" driver and a 10" passive radiator, built in variable crossover and phase control and auto sensing on/off. I believe it's 200 watts.

Or do the twin 10's sealed you were thinking about, although you'd probably need to run power from the battery for an amp to run it.

dirtyguido

Def thinking twin 10's. I believe the CLS has the battery mounted in the trunk like the w212 E class does. (Sad That I haven't pulled up the trunk liner to check). I had a basslink once upon a time in a Jaguar XJR as an add on to the alpine system and was thoroughly unimpressed.

The CLS has the aux in, USB / Media interface and 12V power in the center console instead of the glove box. I was actually kind of annoyed at the lack of a 12v socket in the glove box bc it would have made for a good way to hardwire my radar detector.

I really want to map everything out before I pull the trigger on anything. So I'm sure this discussion will carry on. I actually have a set of JL audio XR component speakers here, as well as some other stuff, so that may end up in the front.

Take care,

George

Mike5215

Yeah, I know nothing about the specifics on the CLS or E. For a lot of stuff it's like the S is built by an entirely different company. Do they put the fuse blocks on the ends of the dash in the CLS? That's a good place to tie in for radar. Also the rear view mirror enclosure has 12v.

Agree the Basslink is not a powerhouse, but I figured if you could put the rear seats down it might do the trick. It was useless in the 221 because the trunk is so air tight, but it worked in the 220s. Battery in the trunk is a huge labor saver. I guess the plan is to start with the subwoofer and amp and see if filling out the low end gets you where you want to go.

jbondox

First lets just clarify that I have more experience with MB's, MB sound systems and anything Audison. So telling me about wiring and the processor is going to get you schooled.

Again, I have been installing the Audison products for years, so what the processor section of the Prima amp does is not new to me, same basic concept of the Bit1 and Bit10 which I have been playing with since they introduced them in the USA. I understand it is new to you, and the magic voodoo allows for sound, but it is not optimal the route you went.

I stated the way to get a clean signal, from there you can do what you want with it. There is no need to de-equalize and condition the signal, as it is a clean signal out of the SOURCE unit.

Also to clarify for the people that read this, the Prima is a 35 watt by 8 channels, not 9 as you stated, the 9 comes in as it can output a low level signal out to another amp to drive a sub. And at 35 watts, 80 max... it really doesn't have a lot of power. especially for a large mid-bass driver in the door that anchors the sound up front.

Also I don't use RCA's behind the radio, I use 9 wire 18 gauge all in 1 cable for the audio back to the processor or amp in the trunk, from their I utilize the factory amp wires. And depending on the audio gear selected I would utilize a passive x-over that comes with the speaker set, or the processors on-board x-over. Or, I would build them as I have done since 1990.

Personally if you took it to a shop that specializes in MB's, they would of done what I recommended as they know what I am talking about.

The S class AND the CL, is a different animal, and to truly get it right you need to use 2 processors to get it perfect. BTDT

jbondox

1.) If doing aftermarket disconnect the sub, a single decent 10" sub will work wonders in the vehicle. Alpine Type R, Hertz Millie (my favorite), JL Audio 10W6, etc... with about 500 watts of power. Did 100's of those setups over the years and seems to fill out the system. I recommend an amp with a bass knob or adjustment from the front for fine tuning as we all know the sources are different and music is not created equally.

Further you can take the signal from the input of the sub amp or the speaker itself. Also last but not least, for a bit more impact, you can spend a few hours removing the factory (disconnected) subwoofer if you chose to go aftermarket sub.

2.) Yes the best way to go, it does not interfere with anything. But take the amp out of the loop physically. BMW has some MOST optical bypass's

jbondox

LMAO

as soon as you turn Logic 7 on, your de-equalized Prima setup becomes invalid, as the HK system adds its own processing...

That has to be the funniest thing I heard yet...

jbondox

Mike5215, Lets just say what your S (and a CL) does is not the same as the rest of the MB's as you have an Audio Gateway built into the amp, All other mb's after 09 are in the COMAND with an outboard amplifier. So the modern vehicles can get a true 20-20k signal that is clean and not modified.

As for the S/CL I would probably spend the time and design a SPDIF connection on the MOST inteface controller within the AGW on the stream output of it... if it was my vehicle. I took the 08 221 AGW apart back in 08 to accomplish it, but ran out of time.

Mike5215

Yeah guys, I should point out that the Prima is going to be met with resistance by a lot of retailers/installers who would much prefer you let them design, fabricate and install a bunch of stuff they're more familiar with and comfortable recommending. The Prima is a fairly recent addition, and a niche product, where the Bit One or Bit Ten gives you more flexibility and a broader selection of applications. (I'm not sure why the DSP in the Prima produces "voodoo", over-processed sound, but the exact same DSP in the Bit One is perfectly fine. If you wouldn't install the Prima as a DSP in a customer's car, why in the world would you ever have anything to do with a Bit One?)

It's not that the shops are uninformed or greedy. It's that they don't want to sell you something they're not sure you're going to be happy with, and they're naturally going to gravitate to the tried and true, regardless of how complex, invasive and expensive that may be. The Prima is a bit of a gamble. They may be fine recommending one to a guy with an Accord, but in a $100,000 Mercedes it's not going to be their go-to proposal.

My shop was a little hesitant as well but luckily they'd just done a couple of Primas in BMWs, with a similar HK Logic 7 speaker array as the Benz, and they were then comfortable enough with the Prima's performance to try it in the S Class. (They also had a Bit One on hand, and a JL 8 Channel amp, and would have given me a full credit on the Prima if it wasn't getting the job done. We also had a sub box and bigger amp picked out if the factory sub and 300 watt amp weren't cutting it).

We all shared jbondox's concern about leaving the orphaned center and rear surrounds on the factory amp and blending them. At one point we discussed a delete (by disabling their speaker leads back at the amp) or a toggle, or a second processor, but it was a non issue. They contribute such a tiny fragment of the overall output generally it wasn't an issue we needed to overcome. And yes, they still contribute to the Logic 7 effect exactly as they did before.

Physically, the Prima is a little nothing of a thing and it's hard to imagine it powering a multi channel set up in a big car like the S Class. The first time they handed me one I thought they were joking, like it was just a controller for some properly massive amp they were going to install as well. But nope, just the little Prima is back there, and it blows away the factory Harman amp in fidelity and volume.

I would say if it can do that in an S, it has to be enough power for a CLS/E.

Obviously, reading two guys arguing on an internet forum tells you exactly zero about how the car actually sounds, so I would encourage anyone in the North Central Florida area to PM me and arrange to meet for an audition.