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Old 09-25-2008, 02:06 PM   #1
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Redline tranny fluid, ATF D6 or D4?

Changing the transmission fluid this weekend! I'm going to use Redline Tranny fluid in lieu of MB brand fluid.

The manual specifies a transmission fluid with a Dexron III rating. Redline Synthetic D4 ATF meets that requirement.

Redline D6 ATF is Dextron VI approved. However, in the spec sheet, it reads,

"dextron VI fluids can be used were Dexron III fluides were previously recommended. The D6 ATF also provides significantly pimproverd gear protection adn will provide GL-4 level of gear protection, making it a superior product for transmissions and transaxles.

Anyone here have an thoughts on using D6 on a 5g-tronic 722.6 tranny?

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Old 09-25-2008, 04:08 PM   #2
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Why do you want to use a non approved product? It might be very good in certain applications and from the limited info provided seems to use good synthetic base stock. However the minute manufacturers weasel word their way around things and say "meets the requirements of" or "is suitable for use in", instead of "is approved for use by Mercedes Benz" you should be suspicious. Why do they not hold an approval?

Lubrication of gears, planetary sets, bearings etc in an auto box is the easy side of things. Producing a fluid with the required frictional properties to ensure desired clutchpack lock-up duration & controlled slip to ensure smooth change & no shift shock is where the balancing act comes (lock-up too quick = shift shock. Lock up too slowly = excessive slip = damaged friction materials & burnt clutchpacks). The minute a fluid is supposed to be "suitable" for a whole lot of makes then compromise is involved.

For smooth operation & long life, use only approved MB fluids. They have the correct frictional characteristics. They also meet GL 4. Nothing special about that! The Benz fluid is also synthetic.

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Old 09-25-2008, 04:24 PM   #3
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Well, on the same token, I'll be changing my fluid this weekend and using Chrysler ATF+4. After researching the whole fluid issue and seeing the Chrysler description of the fluid, I'm more convinced than ever that it's the same stuff that Benz sells at their dealers for triple the price.
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Old 09-25-2008, 04:29 PM   #4
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Funny, but just recently I was going through my MB file collection, and saw this one....
Note in the fine print on pg 7 where it says, "Do ot for use in 722.6 or 722.9 tranny"

Thats for the older 4 speed, not ours.

As far as buying from a Chrysler dealer, I tried that too, and the price wasn't any better.
Tell them you need fluid for a 300 or Crossfire.
I got quoted something like 16-18 a quart.

I noticed here http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2004/21-004-04.htm
" A new transmission fluid (ATF+4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions.It is recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with ATF+4."

So there's 2 ATF+4's. The 9602 stuff would be the right stuff.

I paid 15 + tax and shipping I think for mine online?
But if you go back, you'll see i had problems with the shipment.
Leaked, and got thrown in the back of the UPS warehouse as
"Toxic waste". Went the warehouse in person, and it took them a 1/2 hour to find my package and it was only going about 50 miles.

Considering it's something you'll likely do once or twice in the life of the vehicle, and considering the price of possible failure due to wrong fluids,
I think I'd just stick with the MB stuff.
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Old 09-25-2008, 05:04 PM   #5
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Well, on the same token, I'll be changing my fluid this weekend and using Chrysler ATF+4. After researching the whole fluid issue and seeing the Chrysler description of the fluid, I'm more convinced than ever that it's the same stuff that Benz sells at their dealers for triple the price.
If it's the same STUFF it will hold an approval and say so. Do you have any idea how many conflicting requirements there are out there for auto transmissions. I was in the industry for 37 years until recent retirement. You can't do the research without a proprietary friction test rig.

I'm not saying you have to buy the MB fluid. I'm saying buy an approved product from the approved service products listing (What started as the DB Blue Book, became the Silver Book, the Micro Fische and so on)

The fact that there are so few products listed - each with it's own license number - I think about a dozen - shows how few really shape up.

It's your vehicle for you to bugger up. Good Luck

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Old 09-25-2008, 05:10 PM   #6
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Considering it's something you'll likely do once or twice in the life of the vehicle, and considering the price of possible failure due to wrong fluids,
I think I'd just stick with the MB stuff.
+1 - sorry our messages crossed one another - thanks for attaching a digest of "Approved Service Products"

Yesterday it was Honda coolant

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Old 09-25-2008, 07:00 PM   #7
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So there's 2 ATF+4's. The 9602 stuff would be the right stuff.
That's the stuff I bought - ATF+4 MS9602.

The description on the bottle jives with our requirements too (and I'm not basing my descision solely on this...):

Quote:
"Specially formulated from a Very High VI (VHVI) base stock and a unique additive package. Engineered to be a "Fill For Life" Automatic Transmission Fluid under normal driving conditions. Designed for Chrysler automatic transmissions. Also recommended for certain manual transmissions and (post 1998) power steering systems.

ATF+4 is fully compatible with all transmission applications where ATF+, ATF+2 or ATF+3 Automatic Transmission Fluid is specified."

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As far as buying from a Chrysler dealer, I tried that too, and the price wasn't any better.
Tell them you need fluid for a 300 or Crossfire.
I got quoted something like 16-18 a quart.
I bought at my local Jeep dealer and paid substantially less than that.
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:06 PM   #8
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Yesterday it was Honda coolant

I don't recall reading anyone calling you crazy for your alligience to Benz-only products. I prefer to investigate my options and pay less for the same product if possible.
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:43 PM   #9
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That's the stuff I bought - ATF+4 MS9602.

The description on the bottle jives with our requirements too (and I'm not basing my descision solely on this...):
I bought at my local Jeep dealer and paid substantially less than that.
The Lubrizol - SK Corp etc. GpIII ATF+4 technology is well known in the industry. It is not MB approved and it is most certainly not the same as the MB fluid. Go talk to a competent Oil Company.

MB transmissions used in Chrysler vehicles are not identical & don't enjoy the same expectations of durability or smoothness. Use MB approved fluids.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:24 PM   #10
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I don't recall reading anyone calling you crazy for your alligience to Benz-only products. I prefer to investigate my options and pay less for the same product if possible.
I was not calling you crazy - That was for Rev 2 Liv - yesterday he wanted to put Honda coolant in his Merc - BTW, all I try to do is give good advice to people on this forum - if they choose not to listen that's fine with me. I do know lubrication.

I have no allegiance to MB products. I have allegiance to MB approved products. I use my heritage oil company's approved synthetic engine oil not Mobil 1 as an example

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Old 09-25-2008, 09:30 PM   #11
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i agree with glyn..on this. I would just stick with the mercedes approved fluids. The pricing for the MB fluid isn't terribly high, but the price for repairing or replacing a mercedes transmission is.

Even if the other fluid is somehow better then MB fluid, i doubt your tranny would shift any faster or more smoothly then it already is. I just think the risk to reward ratio is too high to make it worth your while.

The thing about honda is when they design there engines, they try to design it to work with fluids and filters you can buy off the shelf to keep maintence costs low. Thats why the maintence cost on a honda and acura are the same.

Mercedes seems like they make there engines more proprietary to them. So there very well can be special requirements that mercedes requires in there fluids that other manufacturers don't.
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:59 PM   #12
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The Lubrizol - SK Corp etc. GpIII ATF+4 technology is well known in the industry. It is not MB approved and it is most certainly not the same as the MB fluid. Go talk to a competent Oil Company.

MB transmissions used in Chrysler vehicles are not identical & don't enjoy the same expectations of durability or smoothness. Use MB approved fluids.
Isn't Lubrizol the same company that supplies M-B with the additive package used in their transmission fluid? I thought I read somewhere that Benz tranmission fluid specifications specifically required the Lubrizol additive package, and not just one that met the same standards...?
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:19 PM   #13
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...I was in the industry for 37 years...
Could you ring a former tribologist colleague to share with us what is in this stuff that makes it so ‘good’?

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Old 09-25-2008, 10:23 PM   #14
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I don't recall reading anyone calling you crazy for your alligience to Benz-only products. I prefer to investigate my options and pay less for the same product if possible.
THanks for understanding. With the Honda coolant, I didn't want to have to buy a gallon of MB coolant only to have to top off 20oz and have it sit in my garage for 2yrs.

In regards to the tranny fluid. Mercedes factory approved service products pamphlet for MY2000 does not explicitly state to only use MB ATF fluid.

In fact, it lists many different vendors besides MB. Castrol, Chevron, Citgo, Exxon, Halvoline, Texoaco, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Sunoco, Valvoline and others are factory approved. The only requirement is that it be Dextron III rated.

My main criteria when selecting fluid is it's ability to enhance the longevity of the part.



My main concern is if it is okay to use a Dexron 6 rated fluid for a car that specifies Dexron 3.

thanks,
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:39 PM   #15
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i agree with glyn..on this. I would just stick with the mercedes approved fluids. The pricing for the MB fluid isn't terribly high, but the price for repairing or replacing a mercedes transmission is.

Even if the other fluid is somehow better then MB fluid, i doubt your tranny would shift any faster or more smoothly then it already is. I just think the risk to reward ratio is too high to make it worth your while.

The thing about honda is when they design there engines, they try to design it to work with fluids and filters you can buy off the shelf to keep maintence costs low. Thats why the maintence cost on a honda and acura are the same.

Mercedes seems like they make there engines more proprietary to them. So there very well can be special requirements that mercedes requires in there fluids that other manufacturers don't.
I disagree, Honda specifically states to use Honda brand p/s fluid, IIRC coolant and especially brake fluid as well. Honda's do not cost less because they design them to use off the shelf fluids/filters.

In fact, Honda's should be more maintenance heavy given that they run hotter and redline higher.

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Old 09-26-2008, 12:58 AM   #16
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I disagree, Honda specifically states to use Honda brand p/s fluid, IIRC coolant and especially brake fluid as well. Honda's do not cost less because they design them to use off the shelf fluids/filters.

In fact, Honda's should be more maintenance heavy given that they run hotter and redline higher.
you can use simple dot 3 or dot 4 fluid from any autozone for the power steering and brakes, it even saids in the manual. The honda coolant is simple 50/50 glycol based anti freeze and water, its the same anti freeze you can buy at the grocery store for $17.

Honda engines do not get any hotter then any other engine..the redline of a engine has nothing to do with the maintence cost of the engine.

If you redline your engine all the time, you do use up slightly more oil then normal but never to the point where it goes below the minimum levels.

the maintence costs on honda's are one of the lowest in the industry and part of the reason they have such high resale values. Your on crack if you think the maintence cost on honda would be higher then any european brands.
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:52 AM   #17
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Isn't Lubrizol the same company that supplies M-B with the additive package used in their transmission fluid? I thought I read somewhere that Benz tranmission fluid specifications specifically required the Lubrizol additive package, and not just one that met the same standards...?
Yes - Lubrizol make thousands of additives. It's the complete formulation that requires to pass the MB approval testing
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Old 09-26-2008, 04:23 AM   #18
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I capitulate.
It's ok to put crap in your car.
You will save $100-200 in 100,000 miles.
Please do and tell us the result.
But whats the point in asking us if it's ok to do what MB says not to? I've used non-approved motor oil, but I didn't ask everyone for validation. I did it, sent out a sample for analysis and posted the result, which were good, but not definitive.

Get real. This isn't group therapy.

Thanks.

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Old 09-26-2008, 04:27 AM   #19
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Could you ring a former tribologist colleague to share with us what is in this stuff that makes it so ‘good’?

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Hi John,
He can call me or contact me by e mail. I'll PM you my details. I'm a member of our local institute of tribology and we can have a discussion. But I think that people are missing my point. I'm not saying buy the MB fluid & that it is some magic mouse milk. I'm saying buy an approved fluid that has been through the MB testing & approval process. You have a choice of about 12 from, Chevron, Texaco, Shell, Pennzoil etc. etc. They are not exorbitantly expensive. MB seem to charge too much for their fluid that is, after all, made by a certain major for them.

Talk to your tribologist friend. I won't be telling him anything he does not know. The balanced formulation that meets Benz requirements is Lubrizol additive based (a specific pack, antiwear, antiox, incl. VI improver etc.) - contains specific base oils that that also effect frictional properties & partly dictate life. Contain specific friction modifiers & requires to be shear stable, stay in grade, for long life and consistent performance. It's not magic. I choose to use basic language on the forum so that people understand.

So all I'm saying is use the right product for the job & make sure it's approved. I'm off the air from tomorrow doing some consulting for my old company in Mauritius & Reunion. Back in 10 days.

No magic - you would consider me a jerk if I said oil is oil and someone experienced a failure.

I'll be in the office later today & pull the formulation. I will on no account publish it, however.

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Old 09-26-2008, 05:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C230 Sport Coup View Post
I capitulate.
It's ok to put crap in your car.
You will save $100-200 in 100,000 miles.
Please do and tell us the result.
But whats the point in asking us if it's ok to do what MB says not to? I've used non-approved motor oil, but I didn't ask everyone for validation. I did it, sent out a sample for analysis and posted the result, which were good, but not definitive.

Get real. This isn't group therapy.

Thanks.

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Old 09-26-2008, 09:02 AM   #21
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Wow. The flock mentality here is a bit disturbing....
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:23 PM   #22
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Wow. The flock mentality here is a bit disturbing....
You mean in terms of using the approved stuff?
Like I said, I used non-approved synth oil...I mean it's motor oil.
But I didn't ask "is it ok?'.
I already know the answer.
The answer is go ahead, but it's not approved by MB and I'm taking my chances.
If I was in warranty it would void it.
I posted the results here, and though there was very little metal content, of course some people thought I was nuts.

But tranny fluid? Wow all kinds of problems could ensue, shifting issues, wear issues, and the replacement costs of a tranny are more than the car is worth. AND it's something I did the 1st time in the 6th year of ownership, and possibly may never or maybe once, do again.

That being said, I did a tranny flush, and posted a nice pdf entitled,
"one man tranny flush" or something like that.
It was an uncomfortable messy job, glad it only needs to be done every 60-100K miles (did mine at 120K), and I wouldn't want to do it twice from using wrong fluid.
Total cost to DIY was about $200 and I got the desired result, my clunky shifting issues went away. I also posted the analysis results.

Redline products are expensive, so tell me I would have saved any money?
What 50 bucks? Even $100 So in the course of say 10000 miles, I would save $2 maybe even $10.00? And risk a. having to do the job twice (it took hours and took 12 quarts of fluid), or worse, b. having to get a new tranny.

Also, I researched it, and what I found was that the MB fluid was specially developed for MB by Shell in Europe, and the only non-mb product is the Shell crap, and it's only available in Europe. I looked hi and low for something cheaper what was approved in this application, and found nothing.
I went to a Chrysler dealer and tried seeing about that too, but the price was just as high.
Of course, maybe I'm wrong.
And I'd be happy to have someone prove that I am.

But asking everyone in this forum if it's ok to ignore the factory recommendations, well...I mean what IS the point?
Honda coolant, redline stuff thats not approved...Whatever.

Do it, or don't do it. Suffer the mega thousand dollar consequences OR pocket the infinitely small savings and be happy.
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:05 PM   #23
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Of course, maybe I'm wrong.
And I'd be happy to have someone prove that I am.
No idea if you're wrong or not, but threads like this are part of the investigation process.

Granted, there might not be another transmission fluid available that meets Mercedes's specifications. One of the bigger questions I have though, is WHY does Mercedes spec the fluid as it does? Are there special materials/components in the transmission that NECCESSITATE this fluid, or is it spec'ed this high simply to get away with having a "Fill For Life" rating?

If there's no NASA-esque components in the transmission, then going with a lower spec fluid in exchange for a more frequent service schedule is not unreasonable, provided that the additive package doesn't change much. Indeed, a best case scenario would be that a slightly lower spec fluid changed on a more frequent schedule would actually be BETTER than the extended (or entirely non-existant) Mercedes fluid service schedule.

So, maybe looking into the fluid is the wrong approach - maybe we need to be investigating the 722.6 transmission itself and determine what is so "special" in there that requires such "special" fluid...?
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:23 PM   #24
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you can use simple dot 3 or dot 4 fluid from any autozone for the power steering and brakes, it even saids in the manual. The honda coolant is simple 50/50 glycol based anti freeze and water, its the same anti freeze you can buy at the grocery store for $17.

Honda engines do not get any hotter then any other engine..the redline of a engine has nothing to do with the maintence cost of the engine.

If you redline your engine all the time, you do use up slightly more oil then normal but never to the point where it goes below the minimum levels.

the maintence costs on honda's are one of the lowest in the industry and part of the reason they have such high resale values. Your on crack if you think the maintence cost on honda would be higher then any european brands.

I own 3 Honda's so am very familiar with the maintenance costs. Honda brake fluid is a DOT4 formulation, but IIRC, the manual states to use ONLY Honda brake fluid. How you deduce that I might think Honda maintenance costs are higher than MB is judgemental and further suggesting that I may be on crack is a wee bit out of line.

I had an Acura RSX Type-S rice rocket and drove that car MUCH differently than the C320. The main reason being is that I could VTEC that car all day and still get 29mpg out of the 200hp 2.0L 4banger.


Look guys, i'm not looking to save money on fluids here. In fact, i'm looking to buy the most expensive ATF fluid I can that will enhance the longevity of my tranny the best.

I am simply researching and exhausting all my options since i'm not a lubrication specialist. I'll go to bobtheoil guy since I think they'll be less judgemental there.

thanks!
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Old 09-26-2008, 04:21 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by venturaII View Post
No idea if you're wrong or not, but threads like this are part of the investigation process.

Granted, there might not be another transmission fluid available that meets Mercedes's specifications. One of the bigger questions I have though, is WHY does Mercedes spec the fluid as it does? Are there special materials/components in the transmission that NECCESSITATE this fluid, or is it spec'ed this high simply to get away with having a "Fill For Life" rating?

If there's no NASA-esque components in the transmission, then going with a lower spec fluid in exchange for a more frequent service schedule is not unreasonable, provided that the additive package doesn't change much. Indeed, a best case scenario would be that a slightly lower spec fluid changed on a more frequent schedule would actually be BETTER than the extended (or entirely non-existant) Mercedes fluid service schedule.

So, maybe looking into the fluid is the wrong approach - maybe we need to be investigating the 722.6 transmission itself and determine what is so "special" in there that requires such "special" fluid...?
What I don't understand is why you are so hell bent on having a go at the fact that MB, that designed the - in this case - transmission, tested the transmission, defined the appropriate lubricant for that design, put in place a testing and approval regime to ensure that the correct fluids were used in the transmission to ensure durability & desired performance, recommend only approved products for service fill.

Approximately 80% of the petroleum specifications, certifications and approvals globally are driven by the American OEMs. GM (Dexron), Mack, Cummins, Caterpillar, Allison, Chrysler, Ford, Eaton, Rockwell, Dana Spicer etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum and institutions such as API, NLGI and so on.

I don't hear any complaint at having to put the appropriate GM Dexron certified fluid in your GM transmission.

MB have just as much right to define what lubricants, fluids etc. require to be used in their designs to protect their customers investments & honour warrantee.

Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 09-26-2008 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 09-26-2008, 04:21 PM
 
 
 
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2006, 300, atf, automatic, change, d4, d6, dana, fluid, mercedes, ml350, redline, rsxs, spicer, transmission



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