Dealership STUMPED. Can Not Find Problem.
10-26-2016, 08:55 AM
#1
Super Member
Thread Starter
Dealership STUMPED. Can Not Find Problem.
Let me give you some backstory on my car. Had the wiring harness, ME, MAF, and Cam Sensors replaced last year because of the oil leaking from the cam sensors which I already had the recall done on. Car was running great after I got those things replaced and showed no issues of rough morning start and rumbling.
About 6 months ago my car started to get hung up on shifts and would go into limp mode if I floored it. Hoses would pop off of the engine indicating that there was some kind of back pressure going on. I have a close friend that works as a tech at a dealership and he took it in to do diagnostics on it off the books for free. He and the foreman both looked at the car and could definitely tell that there was a problem with shifting and a great loss of power. They found a 2 cracked hoses that they replaced but the problem persisted. They found a crack in the exhaust but they did not believe that to be the issue. They opened up the engine and checked the timing chain and the timing was perfect and the chain showed no slack and was tight. They also removed the precat 02 sensor to see if the cat was clogged but engine still ran the same. They unplugged the cam shaft position sensor, pressure tested the boost system and everything came back normal but the car still ran bad. All they know is that the car is running too rich and they cant figure out why and are truly stumped. They said all the dealer can do is put the car on the books and charge me at least 3 hours labor to start taking apart the supercharger or calling MBUSA and have them start throwing parts in a car thats over 12 years old.
I am still thinking that it is a clogged cat and that I need a new exhaust system. I almost want to buy a magnaflow system with headers and exhaust for around $800 to see if that lets the engine breath because right now it's not working right. I feel like thats the only explanation on why the car misses and gets hung up on shifts, has no power, and has this terrible whistling sound of air escaping from the headers.
Some thoughts please.
About 6 months ago my car started to get hung up on shifts and would go into limp mode if I floored it. Hoses would pop off of the engine indicating that there was some kind of back pressure going on. I have a close friend that works as a tech at a dealership and he took it in to do diagnostics on it off the books for free. He and the foreman both looked at the car and could definitely tell that there was a problem with shifting and a great loss of power. They found a 2 cracked hoses that they replaced but the problem persisted. They found a crack in the exhaust but they did not believe that to be the issue. They opened up the engine and checked the timing chain and the timing was perfect and the chain showed no slack and was tight. They also removed the precat 02 sensor to see if the cat was clogged but engine still ran the same. They unplugged the cam shaft position sensor, pressure tested the boost system and everything came back normal but the car still ran bad. All they know is that the car is running too rich and they cant figure out why and are truly stumped. They said all the dealer can do is put the car on the books and charge me at least 3 hours labor to start taking apart the supercharger or calling MBUSA and have them start throwing parts in a car thats over 12 years old.
I am still thinking that it is a clogged cat and that I need a new exhaust system. I almost want to buy a magnaflow system with headers and exhaust for around $800 to see if that lets the engine breath because right now it's not working right. I feel like thats the only explanation on why the car misses and gets hung up on shifts, has no power, and has this terrible whistling sound of air escaping from the headers.
Some thoughts please.
10-27-2016, 11:03 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Northwest Arkansas
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2016 C450
It's easy to determine if the cat is clogged. Surprised they didn't check. At operating temperature use an infrared thermometer and test the temp of the pipes before the cat and after the cat. A significant difference is an indicator of the cat being clogged.
10-28-2016, 11:04 AM
#3
MBWorld Fanatic!
Does the tranny go into limp mode or the engine? If it has the 5-speed tranny and that's what's going into limp mode, has the conductor plate been replaced? I just went through this at 106k miles. Just a thought...
10-29-2016, 07:27 PM
#4
Super Member
Thread Starter
10-31-2016, 08:43 AM
#7
Super Member
Thread Starter
I've been calling around for quotes to replace my headers up to my second cat. Seems like most places have quoted me for 5 hours of work. Does that seem legitimate? It just seems like its a little too long.
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10-31-2016, 09:15 AM
#8
With factory parts? I think from cat with manifold is around 2 hours, the other piece shouldn't be more than 1
10-31-2016, 11:59 AM
#9
Super Member
Thread Starter
Mr. Muffler, lol, which is around my house quoted me $2400 with parts and labor. I told them how? The same magnaflow unit they were pricing me out is $2100 there yet online it is $900. Then they charge me $300 labor if I use their parts, otherwise its $500. Crazy. On to the next shop.
10-31-2016, 06:55 PM
#10
MBWorld Fanatic!
I tell you, I just order the cat and then go to
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
The following users liked this post:
PeteyV (11-01-2016)
11-01-2016, 08:21 AM
#11
Super Member
Thread Starter
I tell you, I just order the cat and then go to
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
11-01-2016, 12:58 PM
#12
Super Member
I tell you, I just order the cat and then go to
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
a muffler shop, hand it to them to well.
Shouldn't cost more than $50.
Since you're not in CA, shouldn't be too expensive.
Isn't there a 49 state approved aftermarket cat for your car?
There's a long list for the 2002 with the 2.3L.
I had magnflow twice, and now I'm using Walker.
The walker seems to be holding up.
5 year, 50K mile warranty.
Imho, aftermarket primary convertors last ~50K miles. Imho, anything over that is good.
I don't know about Calf, but in most of the States, it's very rare for a shop to install parts brought in by a customer. There are many reasons for that.
Also, auto repair in Southern Calf has very little in common to auto repair in most of the Country (USA). Most of the country has snow and rain. Therefore, rust is prevalent.
*I* always find it interesting when people in Southern Calf say "spray penetrating oil on it" and that will work.
LMAO.
Yea, they have very little experience with typical rusting.
That is great for people that live in Southern Calf or places like Phoenix.
Fwiw, want to replace a front caliper on a car that's 10+ years old? Well, in a snow state, that could result in replacing all of the calipers, hoses, and brake lines. That's real life in a snow State. :-| That is an extreme example. But, it does happen. For the ~~5% of the people that it happens to, it's a harsh reality with living in a non-desert environment.
Fwiw, for me, I'll take the endless trees anytime.
Last edited by RedGray; 11-01-2016 at 01:11 PM.
11-01-2016, 01:10 PM
#13
Super Member
One of the best places, and also a sponsor of the forums, is
Pelican Parts.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/
Also for parts, the most common site on the web, that also has a huge selection, is RockAuto.
http://www.rockauto.com/
Here's a dealer that has good prices on MB parts, and a good online catalog:
http://www.benzpartsdirect.com/auto-...ber=2711402209
For primary convertor and manifold -- ~$860 (with s&h).
For secondary pipe and convertor --~$550 (with s&h , not counting the refundable $200 core charge - return the old pipe and convertor).
Also, Magnaflow does make both a manifold and primary convertor, and pipe and secondary convertor for an M271 engine. I just got a Magnaflow pipe and secondary convertor.
As I said above, it's very rare that a shop will install parts brought in by a customer. Especially if the shop hasn't had a long relationship with that customer. So, imho, beware of a shop that does say that it's okay.
Last edited by RedGray; 11-01-2016 at 01:13 PM.
11-01-2016, 01:30 PM
#14
SPONSOR
Thanks for the post RedGray. Yes, we should have the Exhaust Manifold with Catalytic Converter for your W203 here: http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/..._pg1.htm#item0. If you need anything else or ever have parts inquiries in the future please do not hesitate to let me know.
11-01-2016, 02:17 PM
#15
Super Member
Thread Starter
Did you replace the primary or secondary convertor many times?
Imho, aftermarket primary convertors last ~50K miles. Imho, anything over that is good.
I don't know about Calf, but in most of the States, it's very rare for a shop to install parts brought in by a customer. There are many reasons for that.
Also, auto repair in Southern Calf has very little in common to auto repair in most of the Country (USA). Most of the country has snow and rain. Therefore, rust is prevalent.
*I* always find it interesting when people in Southern Calf say "spray penetrating oil on it" and that will work.
LMAO.
Yea, they have very little experience with typical rusting.
That is great for people that live in Southern Calf or places like Phoenix.
Fwiw, want to replace a front caliper on a car that's 10+ years old? Well, in a snow state, that could result in replacing all of the calipers, hoses, and brake lines. That's real life in a snow State. :-| That is an extreme example. But, it does happen. For the ~~5% of the people that it happens to, it's a harsh reality with living in a non-desert environment.
Fwiw, for me, I'll take the endless trees anytime.
Imho, aftermarket primary convertors last ~50K miles. Imho, anything over that is good.
I don't know about Calf, but in most of the States, it's very rare for a shop to install parts brought in by a customer. There are many reasons for that.
Also, auto repair in Southern Calf has very little in common to auto repair in most of the Country (USA). Most of the country has snow and rain. Therefore, rust is prevalent.
*I* always find it interesting when people in Southern Calf say "spray penetrating oil on it" and that will work.
LMAO.
Yea, they have very little experience with typical rusting.
That is great for people that live in Southern Calf or places like Phoenix.
Fwiw, want to replace a front caliper on a car that's 10+ years old? Well, in a snow state, that could result in replacing all of the calipers, hoses, and brake lines. That's real life in a snow State. :-| That is an extreme example. But, it does happen. For the ~~5% of the people that it happens to, it's a harsh reality with living in a non-desert environment.
Fwiw, for me, I'll take the endless trees anytime.
I have never replaced the cats or any exhaust components on my car. In all honesty all I have ever replaced were wear and tear items like rotors and brakes. I also have changed the spark plugs a few times. I just rolled over 100,000 miles so I guess I may be due. I am going with the aftermarket magnaflow route because of price point. Thanks for the info!
Last edited by PeteyV; 11-02-2016 at 08:32 AM.
11-01-2016, 02:20 PM
#16
Super Member
Thread Starter
Since it seems like you don't do the work yourself, it's understandable that you're not familiar with the common places to get parts.
One of the best places, and also a sponsor of the forums, is
Pelican Parts.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/
Also for parts, the most common site on the web, that also has a huge selection, is RockAuto.
http://www.rockauto.com/
Here's a dealer that has good prices on MB parts, and a good online catalog:
http://www.benzpartsdirect.com/auto-...ber=2711402209
For primary convertor and manifold -- ~$860 (with s&h).
For secondary pipe and convertor --~$550 (with s&h , not counting the refundable $200 core charge - return the old pipe and convertor).
Also, Magnaflow does make both a manifold and primary convertor, and pipe and secondary convertor for an M271 engine. I just got a Magnaflow pipe and secondary convertor.
As I said above, it's very rare that a shop will install parts brought in by a customer. Especially if the shop hasn't had a long relationship with that customer. So, imho, beware of a shop that does say that it's okay.
One of the best places, and also a sponsor of the forums, is
Pelican Parts.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/
Also for parts, the most common site on the web, that also has a huge selection, is RockAuto.
http://www.rockauto.com/
Here's a dealer that has good prices on MB parts, and a good online catalog:
http://www.benzpartsdirect.com/auto-...ber=2711402209
For primary convertor and manifold -- ~$860 (with s&h).
For secondary pipe and convertor --~$550 (with s&h , not counting the refundable $200 core charge - return the old pipe and convertor).
Also, Magnaflow does make both a manifold and primary convertor, and pipe and secondary convertor for an M271 engine. I just got a Magnaflow pipe and secondary convertor.
As I said above, it's very rare that a shop will install parts brought in by a customer. Especially if the shop hasn't had a long relationship with that customer. So, imho, beware of a shop that does say that it's okay.
11-01-2016, 06:48 PM
#17
Super Member
Iirc, there are around 6 options for the manifold and primary cat.
Imho, the Magaflow is the best direct replacement option I saw. That's assuming that the ~~50K to ~~75K mile life is okay.
Otherwise, get the MB OEM.
I got the Kleeman header and primary cat. That is not a direct replacement. It requires cutting and fitting to the under-the-car exhaust pipe. Plus, it takes ~1 week+ to come directly from Germany. Also, it may not be smog legal for some areas.
The remove the header and cat, you (/the mechanic) will need heat. A DIY person should use MAPP gas and a torch-head on a hose. A Mechanic will use Oxy/act. Regardless, care has to be taken with where the flame is pointed and where the heat spreads to.
The two oxygen sensors must also come off. Those will also have to be heated to get them off. If they are re-used, then the correct amount of anti-seize must be used on the threads. Too much and it will contaminate the oxygen sensor. Too little, and you may ruin/rust the fitting on the cat/pipe.
Fwiw, I didn't have any problems getting the nuts off the head/manifold. I also used heat (MAPP) and a heat-blocking-mat. Some studs came out with the nuts. Some nuts came right off. Pelican (or the dealer) has both.
The studs/bolts/whatever that connected the convertor to the pipe broke. Whatever. :-) A new nut and bolt are fine with me.
Under the car, there is also a lower bracket (#3 in the diagram that I referenced before) that supports the cat, and has a bolt that bolts to the cat. That bolt broke when I removed it.
I suggest getting a new primary Oxygen sensor at the same time. But, that's not cheap (~$300).
Fwiw, parts like cats and mufflers fail because of use and age. So, ~12 years is not bad for a cat.
Good Luck.
Imho, the Magaflow is the best direct replacement option I saw. That's assuming that the ~~50K to ~~75K mile life is okay.
Otherwise, get the MB OEM.
I got the Kleeman header and primary cat. That is not a direct replacement. It requires cutting and fitting to the under-the-car exhaust pipe. Plus, it takes ~1 week+ to come directly from Germany. Also, it may not be smog legal for some areas.
The remove the header and cat, you (/the mechanic) will need heat. A DIY person should use MAPP gas and a torch-head on a hose. A Mechanic will use Oxy/act. Regardless, care has to be taken with where the flame is pointed and where the heat spreads to.
The two oxygen sensors must also come off. Those will also have to be heated to get them off. If they are re-used, then the correct amount of anti-seize must be used on the threads. Too much and it will contaminate the oxygen sensor. Too little, and you may ruin/rust the fitting on the cat/pipe.
Fwiw, I didn't have any problems getting the nuts off the head/manifold. I also used heat (MAPP) and a heat-blocking-mat. Some studs came out with the nuts. Some nuts came right off. Pelican (or the dealer) has both.
The studs/bolts/whatever that connected the convertor to the pipe broke. Whatever. :-) A new nut and bolt are fine with me.
Under the car, there is also a lower bracket (#3 in the diagram that I referenced before) that supports the cat, and has a bolt that bolts to the cat. That bolt broke when I removed it.
I suggest getting a new primary Oxygen sensor at the same time. But, that's not cheap (~$300).
Fwiw, parts like cats and mufflers fail because of use and age. So, ~12 years is not bad for a cat.
Good Luck.
Last edited by RedGray; 11-01-2016 at 06:56 PM.
11-01-2016, 07:22 PM
#18
Junior Member
I appreciate all the info you just gave me! I will definitely take a look at these websites for any other parts I may need for my car. For the exhaust manifold and test pipe I went ahead and bought the magnaflow brand because of the pricing. A rebuilt exhaust manifold cost about $1000 where as I got the exhaust manifold and test pipe for about $850 from magnaflow. Just trying to save some money on a car thats already 13 years old and I have had since day 1.
I realize this doesn't help you now, but always check your local yard before you shell out the money for expensive parts and repair. (and not to mention its a great place to practice removal and replacement so you don't damage your own car "learning" how to do this).
Last edited by purplecat001; 11-01-2016 at 07:25 PM.
11-01-2016, 07:36 PM
#19
MBWorld Fanatic!
Really?
I've done it 2 or 3 times already with cats, had mufflers exchanged,
resonators added, and then had it all removed and put back to stock,
and at least 4 different shops.
Not one ever said anything except, how much it would cost.
$40- $50.
Muffler shops don't care, just pay them to weld.
I've done it 2 or 3 times already with cats, had mufflers exchanged,
resonators added, and then had it all removed and put back to stock,
and at least 4 different shops.
Not one ever said anything except, how much it would cost.
$40- $50.
Muffler shops don't care, just pay them to weld.
11-01-2016, 07:37 PM
#20
MBWorld Fanatic!
And also, check your junk yards. I actually saw the magnaflow entire exhaust system (from the transmission area back) at my local yard for an 04 (I think) c320 a month ago. I would have pulled it for you had it been timed right since I pulled the manual shifter from that car which required unbolting from the bottom. I realize this doesn't help you now, but always check your local yard before you shell out the money for expensive parts and repair. (and not to mention its a great place to practice removal and replacement so you don't damage your own car "learning" how to do this).
I realize this doesn't help you now, but always check your local yard before you shell out the money for expensive parts and repair. (and not to mention its a great place to practice removal and replacement so you don't damage your own car "learning" how to do this).
11-01-2016, 07:39 PM
#21
MBWorld Fanatic!
I appreciate all the info you just gave me! I will definitely take a look at these websites for any other parts I may need for my car. For the exhaust manifold and test pipe I went ahead and bought the magnaflow brand because of the pricing. A rebuilt exhaust manifold cost about $1000 where as I got the exhaust manifold and test pipe for about $850 from magnaflow. Just trying to save some money on a car thats already 13 years old and I have had since day 1.
What about rockauto? Ebay?
As far as sensors goes, go Rockauto.
For the M111 at least it's about 100 bucks each for OEM bosch.
11-01-2016, 09:32 PM
#22
Super Member
Thread Starter
Iirc, there are around 6 options for the manifold and primary cat.
Imho, the Magaflow is the best direct replacement option I saw. That's assuming that the ~~50K to ~~75K mile life is okay.
Otherwise, get the MB OEM.
I got the Kleeman header and primary cat. That is not a direct replacement. It requires cutting and fitting to the under-the-car exhaust pipe. Plus, it takes ~1 week+ to come directly from Germany. Also, it may not be smog legal for some areas.
The remove the header and cat, you (/the mechanic) will need heat. A DIY person should use MAPP gas and a torch-head on a hose. A Mechanic will use Oxy/act. Regardless, care has to be taken with where the flame is pointed and where the heat spreads to.
The two oxygen sensors must also come off. Those will also have to be heated to get them off. If they are re-used, then the correct amount of anti-seize must be used on the threads. Too much and it will contaminate the oxygen sensor. Too little, and you may ruin/rust the fitting on the cat/pipe.
Fwiw, I didn't have any problems getting the nuts off the head/manifold. I also used heat (MAPP) and a heat-blocking-mat. Some studs came out with the nuts. Some nuts came right off. Pelican (or the dealer) has both.
The studs/bolts/whatever that connected the convertor to the pipe broke. Whatever. :-) A new nut and bolt are fine with me.
Under the car, there is also a lower bracket (#3 in the diagram that I referenced before) that supports the cat, and has a bolt that bolts to the cat. That bolt broke when I removed it.
I suggest getting a new primary Oxygen sensor at the same time. But, that's not cheap (~$300).
Fwiw, parts like cats and mufflers fail because of use and age. So, ~12 years is not bad for a cat.
Good Luck.
Imho, the Magaflow is the best direct replacement option I saw. That's assuming that the ~~50K to ~~75K mile life is okay.
Otherwise, get the MB OEM.
I got the Kleeman header and primary cat. That is not a direct replacement. It requires cutting and fitting to the under-the-car exhaust pipe. Plus, it takes ~1 week+ to come directly from Germany. Also, it may not be smog legal for some areas.
The remove the header and cat, you (/the mechanic) will need heat. A DIY person should use MAPP gas and a torch-head on a hose. A Mechanic will use Oxy/act. Regardless, care has to be taken with where the flame is pointed and where the heat spreads to.
The two oxygen sensors must also come off. Those will also have to be heated to get them off. If they are re-used, then the correct amount of anti-seize must be used on the threads. Too much and it will contaminate the oxygen sensor. Too little, and you may ruin/rust the fitting on the cat/pipe.
Fwiw, I didn't have any problems getting the nuts off the head/manifold. I also used heat (MAPP) and a heat-blocking-mat. Some studs came out with the nuts. Some nuts came right off. Pelican (or the dealer) has both.
The studs/bolts/whatever that connected the convertor to the pipe broke. Whatever. :-) A new nut and bolt are fine with me.
Under the car, there is also a lower bracket (#3 in the diagram that I referenced before) that supports the cat, and has a bolt that bolts to the cat. That bolt broke when I removed it.
I suggest getting a new primary Oxygen sensor at the same time. But, that's not cheap (~$300).
Fwiw, parts like cats and mufflers fail because of use and age. So, ~12 years is not bad for a cat.
Good Luck.
I was thinking about replacing the 02 sensors, actually both of them, but when I had my car looked at by one of my buddies that work at MB Service at the dealer before I had my cats cut he told me that my 02 sensors were in good working order. However, that info comes with a grain of salt now that he and the shop foreman assured me my cars cats were okay and to disregard the 0420 code my car was pulling
RedGray, Like always I appreciate all your information! It is really helpful.
11-01-2016, 09:35 PM
#23
Super Member
Thread Starter
And also, check your junk yards. I actually saw the magnaflow entire exhaust system (from the transmission area back) at my local yard for an 04 (I think) c320 a month ago. I would have pulled it for you had it been timed right since I pulled the manual shifter from that car which required unbolting from the bottom. I realize this doesn't help you now, but always check your local yard before you shell out the money for expensive parts and repair. (and not to mention its a great place to practice removal and replacement so you don't damage your own car "learning" how to do this).
I realize this doesn't help you now, but always check your local yard before you shell out the money for expensive parts and repair. (and not to mention its a great place to practice removal and replacement so you don't damage your own car "learning" how to do this).
11-01-2016, 09:37 PM
#24
Super Member
Thread Starter
I did check eBay, RMeuropean, and all of the other sites mentioned in this thread. Magnaflow is the cheapest "name brand" option besides getting no name headers from eBay for $150 but then I'd still have to buy 2 universal cats which would probably cost me a total of $600.
Last edited by PeteyV; 11-01-2016 at 09:40 PM.
11-06-2016, 10:11 AM
#25
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Finland, Europe
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
W203 C200CDI
I experienced clogged cats also in my car. One day it drived just fine, but on the next it literally had no power, had to floor it really hard even to do 30mph.
CDIs have 2 cats also and the quote from dealer was €2000 ~ $2200
Car worth less than 3000
Hope you get it solved
CDIs have 2 cats also and the quote from dealer was €2000 ~ $2200
Car worth less than 3000Hope you get it solved
