K-A

A little surprised to hear this from a C400, but I think this review is spot freaking on. I was quite unimpressed with the C300 for very similar reasons, and drew near identical conclusions. Where the interior excels, the driving dynamics suffer (further away in sportiness from the 3 Series than a Mercedes has been in at least 1 to 2 generations, and that's even considering the new 3 is "further away from BMW" than any 3 before it, itself), though it is comfortable, a fine commuter car, etc. Though so is a Camry for that matter (not saying it's the same, but it drove like what I'd expect from a high line rental car in a sense, obviously not counting appointments as those are much nicer in the C). I'm happy to see Mercedes stopping the BMW chase and going back to their roots with a car that's more luxury-oriented (in attempted design and drive compared to the W204, imo), but it better be class leading in luxury by a mile, in interior (nailed the old-world Benz fancy charm on that, though the eyesore of a screen tries to dampen that) AND drive, and I'm still unsure on the latter (simply because I need more wheel time).

3,850 is very heavy for this kind of car. Surprised to hear that. And if M-B is going to force the 4 Matic on the C400 (which I think they do in the U.S?) it's time they finally launch a true AWD that's every bit as performance driven as winter-driven. 4Matic has to be the blandest, most regressive-to-dynamics, utilitarian 4WD out there, imo, or at least battling it out with BMW's which is also pretty underwhelming. Certainly not Quattro or Porsche levels of AWD prowess here, universes away. And that price is INSANE for a C Class! Either M-B are going to successfully move this car upmarket, or it will be the most discounted car in M-B history, which says a lot as some of their current and previous cars have seen discounts that I think are highest in the industry.

Eilers

Amazing photo !

c4004matic

QUOTE=K-A;6237673]A little surprised to hear this from a C400, but I think this review is spot freaking on. I was quite unimpressed with the C300 for very similar reasons, and drew near identical conclusions. Where the interior excels, the driving dynamics suffer (further away in sportiness from the 3 Series than a Mercedes has been in at least 1 to 2 generations, and that's even considering the new 3 is "further away from BMW" than any 3 before it, itself), though it is comfortable, a fine commuter car, etc. Though so is a Camry for that matter (not saying it's the same, but it drove like what I'd expect from a high line rental car in a sense, obviously not counting appointments as those are much nicer in the C). I'm happy to see Mercedes stopping the BMW chase and going back to their roots with a car that's more luxury-oriented (in attempted design and drive compared to the W204, imo), but it better be class leading in luxury by a mile, in interior (nailed the old-world Benz fancy charm on that, though the eyesore of a screen tries to dampen that) AND drive, and I'm still unsure on the latter (simply because I need more wheel time).

3,850 is very heavy for this kind of car. Surprised to hear that. And if M-B is going to force the 4 Matic on the C400 (which I think they do in the U.S?) it's time they finally launch a true AWD that's every bit as performance driven as winter-driven. 4Matic has to be the blandest, most regressive-to-dynamics, utilitarian 4WD out there, imo, or at least battling it out with BMW's which is also pretty underwhelming. Certainly not Quattro or Porsche levels of AWD prowess here, universes away. And that price is INSANE for a C Class! Either M-B are going to successfully move this car upmarket, or it will be the most discounted car in M-B history, which says a lot as some of their current and previous cars have seen discounts that I think are highest in the industry.[/QUOTE]



Poor BMW hater boy. If you wish I'll show your 335 what getting a new feels like.

K-A

Lolwut?

alsyli

+1. I thought it was a very positive review. Saying the car feels like a miniature version of what is possibly the best mass-produced luxury car in the world isn't an insult.... ::shrug::

mihaelb

The C300 is comparable to the 328i xDrive, which actually ends up costing $5K more when similarly-equipped the way I'd want it (upgraded sound system, sun roof, addition of the driver assist package on the BMW, leather seating, upgraded lights). In Canada anyways (I don't think it'd be cheaper in the US, would it?).

Oh, and the BMW weighs just 200lbs less...huge difference engineering-wise, and racing-wise, but not to the average (or even advanced, I'd venture) driver.

alsyli

Probably makes a diff in fuel economy....

c4004matic

Those 200 are more than compensated by 30 additional HP and 50 some lbs more torque.

K-A

200 lbs makes a very big and notable difference in dynamics, especially for a "smaller" sedan.

It's one thing if the weight contributed to a bull-strong feeling, and while the car feels nice and solid in its own right, IMO somehow the W205 feels a little softer and less "tank like" than the previous gen, and I've seen other people here comment on that.

mihaelb

Ofcourse.

The C300 4matic is more fuel-efficient than the 328xi too, by the way, according to the EPA combined numbers (more efficient in the city, less so on the highway, but 27mpg combined vs 26, if you care about specifics)

alsyli

Er, heavier car + bigger and more powerful engine usually equals lower fuel economy.

mihaelb

200lbs is 5%. I don't know if it would be that noticeable.

What people talk about with the 'tank-like' feeling is the way the doors feel and shut. Yes, the doors weigh a LOT less. Don't forget it's not just the 200lbs savings over the old model, but also achieving this in a BIGGER car, so every component is not just 5% lighter, but more, to achieve that.

c4004matic

I'm paying 63k for a car that has 330 HP, does 60 in less than 5 seconds and drinks only premium fuel. I think gas is the least of my concerns. I'm swapping my F150 so I'm already doing the environment a big favor!

alsyli

I assumed posters were referring to the C400 since the thread title is "Car and Driver C400 review..." The C300 is lighter than the 328i, the C400 is model that's 200 lbs heavier....

mihaelb

Oops...my mistake. But then we need to compare it to the 335...Price difference is smaller, but the C class is still cheaper (again, the way I'd configure it)...So my point stands with regards to K-A's assertion that the "price is insane" for a C-class.

as for fuel economy, it's identical (according to the EPA) for the 335xi and C400 4matic, and the weight difference is just 100lbs between the two, so again, the C400 is not THAT heavy (in regards to K-A's "very heavy for this kind of car")

K-A

It also depends on where the weight is. Many of us complain about the high weight of the current 5 Series, which has really hampered driving dynamics, and it comes in at not too much more than the C400 actually, which to me makes the C very heavy for what it is.

200 lbs is quite noticeable. Put a 200 pound guy in your car and you're gonna feel a difference, you'll feel the extra weight being dragged along. On a luxury car and luxury type of drive, it won't make such a difference, but on a sportiness measure, it will.

100 lbs isn't gonna make as big a difference (a tiny girl, for example), but it's still there. 100 lbs is generally equal to 10 HP, to put a sort of number on it. Then you have steering, braking, handling, body roll, etc. that are a factor from it.

Even if the 335i 4WD is "just" 100 lbs lighter, they're both porky for these kinds of cars, IMO. The 3 simply disguises it better because it's furthered the sportiness gap against this generation of C Class (or M-B has furthered the gap in luxury, it goes both ways).

alsyli

My posts had nothing to do w/ K-A's statements. You stated that 200 lbs isn't that significant on a daily basis. And my contention is that lighter cars tend to get better fuel economy (which, for both the 3-series and C-class, are true....). Differences aren't necessarily HUGE, but fuel economy over the lifetime of a car can be important (IMHO).

MB-JIM

Don't forget, if you get the C300 RWD, you save 177 Pounds!

Eilers

The official numbers from MB for the C400 4matic, is 1645 kg x 2.2 = 3619 lbs

Eilers

THe official numbers for BMW 335Ix Automatic, is 1665 kg x 2.2 = 3663 lbs

ddeliber

The issue that I have with your assessments (not just this one) and those of the C & D review is not necessarily the content, but the choice of words. What I am looking for in a professional review is a neutral bias. The author of the C & D article does not have this, he obviously prefers feeling the road more so he is BMW/sport biased as are you (this is not a criticism, just an observation that I don't believe you would disagree with). This bias is conveyed in presenting what at its roots should be a compliment but comes off as criticism. A professional writer knows this and IMO it is intentional. Based on what I have read from you, I would guess that you fall into this category as well, eloquently lacing praise with sarcasm and hyperbole to the point of flipping the opinion in the same sentence.

By way of example, when someone says things like:
-"The just-average 0.88-g skidpad is a byproduct of the 4MATIC’s ability to create understeer. "
-"But this particular C400, optioned up to $61,755 (the larger E400 4MATIC is $56,775 to start) and weighing a mighty 3850 pounds, takes a quarter-step back from the handling heights achieved by others in the Mercedes catalog. It is a little soft and feels a lot heavier, undoubtedly because it is rather heavy."
-"Sport dials up the right suspension and shift-map settings for eager driving but locks out top gear unless you take manual control. So you must needlessly waste fuel if you just want the car to feel a little firmer. "

and
-"the driving dynamics suffer (further away in sportiness from the 3 Series than a Mercedes has been in at least 1 to 2 generations"
-"Though so is a Camry for that matter (not saying it's the same, but it drove like what I'd expect from a high line rental car in a sense, obviously not counting appointments as those are much nicer in the C)."

Eliminating the negative bias could an author could say the same thing but convey a totally different message with something like this instead:
-Although the C seemingly leans more towards luxury, its .88 skid pad is quite close to the that achieved by the much more sport focused RWD 335i coming in at .89g's (from earlier C&D tests results).

-The C400 starts at $49,515, it comes in at about $5 thousand more than its predecessor the C350. But considering what it provides in terms of both performance and features the price does not seem off base (just adding AWD would cut that difference in half if it were available on the C350). If you were to compare it to a similarly equipped 335xi the premium shrinks to about $2000, and maxed out, they are about the same. It also tips the scales at 3850lbs which is actually less than the smaller C350 (if it had AWD) and a meager 100lbs more than the supposedly svelte 335xi.

-With the Airmatic suspension the agility switch provides sport and sport+ options that noticeably tightens the suspension and steering while also holding the gears a bit longer. Transforming this comfortable cruiser to a fine tuned precise handling beast whenever you feel the urge have some fun. If you don't want to waste fuel you can customize these settings to keep the sport feel while maintaining the standard transmission settings.

and

-The handling characteristics are improved dramatically from the w204 virtually eliminating the harsh edge and lateral jolts that are amplified as the road conditions get worse. All this while significantly improving overall grip as shown by the skid pad numbers going up from .85g to .88g. It might feel softer, but this does not mean weaker handling, it is just better across the board.

-I don't have a way to reword the Camry comparison in a neutral way as there is no way to mistake this as in any way complimentary. It is just intended as an insult even though you try to soften it by saying the C is appointed better. Many people mistakenly equate smoother for worse handling. You obviously feel that getting jolted by every irregularity in the road as a minimum requirement. The new C significantly improves both comfort and handling and you seem to be incapable of processing this, to the point of comparing the C to probably the worst handling well rated sedan on the road in the Camry (with the exception of the down pillow equipped Toyota Avalon). I mean Kias and Hyundais handle significantly better than this floater. Sure you seem to praise the C's luxury, but simply mentioning the word Camry totally negates any seeming positive. Sure a 335 is going to be a bit tighter across the board. Add in M-sport and put your dentist on speed dial. I'll take a small decrease in handling with a large improvement in comfort every day of the week.

Not sure what your point about "3850 is very heavy for this kind of car" 100lbs more than a 335xi and the words "very heavy" simply doesn't fit with your BMW bias and all.

I absolutely agree with you about 4Matic. It is archaic and not up to par with everything else in the current Mercedes lineup. Quattro is so much better and it is even getting old. The engineering team at MB has to know this. I wonder what is holding them back. Same thing can be said for the 7gtronic plus. As if the plus pulls it out of the Jurassic period.

However, your "price is INSANE" dig is floating off in your BMW clouded haze. About $2k more than a 335xi but with a leather dash, collision prevention, Burmaster sound, LED lights std, and a gozillion degree improvement in interior everything. Insane is probably more appropriate directed towards the 335xi. And this from a guy that just ordered a VW, I mean Porsche! Come on, you have to be able to do better than that.

WCBenzDrvr

^^^ This guy.

Germancar1

The E400 is not 56K, it is more like 62K to start.

M

Germancar1

WOW.

M

ddeliber

I know, just quoted what they had though.