E55 supercharger on a C55?

[CThirtyTwo]

I am new to Mercedes. I just got an 05 C55. I am curious about making more power in the future. Can you take the SC from an E55 and bolt it on a C55? Do you need to use the E55 PCM or can you just have the C55 Tuned for the SC. Just curious for a little extra power that you can feel.

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[TruTaing]

I believe there was someone in the w211 forums who did this swap, but with a custom larger supercharger pulley to keep boost levels down. OJwerks is doing the same kinda conversion w/ his slk320 and a c32 SC.

[CThirtyTwo]

Links??

[crazeazn]

what about compression ratio?

[CThirtyTwo]

I'm looking for a low boost. It should not be a problem I don't think

[JToups386]

This is an upgrade I hope to do one day, when finances allow. Our motors are 11:1, therefore they would obviously not tolerate as much boost as the lower compression E55 setup, however we certainly can still put a supercharger on the car and run lower boost levels. Today's fuel management systems allow for much more tunability and therefore fuel delivery. It's simply a matter of getting enough fuel to compensate the extra air from the SC, and managing the other ignition-related parameters. As someone else mentioned, you'd simply have to use a bigger pulley to lower the boost levels, and then do some testing with an air/fuel ratio monitor to find a safe operating range for the boost.

I'd love to see more people undertaking this task so we can develop a learning curve along the way. For me, it'll have to wait, but I'm certainly anxious to see good results from others who make the move.

[CThirtyTwo]

But will the SC from the E55 just bolt on with no fuss. How would I manage the engine? A flash or take it to a shop and have it tuned?

Do you think I would need an ECU tune running 4psi?

[crazeazn]

i dont thick the stock ecu can handle the extra air. i have no clue about the engine management/ecu/black boxes for mercs but some obd2 cars are not easy to modify.not to mention you would probably still need to upgrade injectors/fuel pump even for low boost no?

[c32AMG-DTM]

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you make your name "CFiftyFive"?

As for the "add an E55 S/C to C55" - I'm sure it'd work fine, but I'd be worried that it'd cost an arm and a leg to source a problem-free (or brand new, which would be even more expensive) E55 S/C, then have any/all of the custom parts you'd need fabbed, then have it all installed, tuned, etc.

You might be better off price-wise and peace-of-mind just going with Renntech or Kleemann for their C55 S/C kits, even though they're certainly not cheap. All of the R&D's already done, so you'd potentially avoid some headaches, and it'd maintain value much better than a "parts-hanger" that you piece together yourself, if that's important to you.

Or, if you want even bigger gains, just do a full E55K engine swap into your C55, like Motorwerks is doing right now

[CThirtyTwo]

I was going to get a C32. But the dealer was giving me nothing but problems. The car was not ready on 2 occasions..I found a C55 that I liked and decided to get it. I put a request to change my SN.

I figured that since the E55 and c55 have same basic engine, that it would be easy to fit the E55 S/C onto the C55 with very little modification.

[Quick Silver]

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you make your name "CFiftyFive"?

As I am another "Newbie", I was wondering the same thing since you only have 5 posts

But thanks for the question. I've been wondering the same thing.

[suicidal4life]

mbenzman did it to his CLK55

Project Chrome Dome Part 2.1

He also has vids of it posted. It sounds like he is still trying to work out all the kinks and that there were a lot of kinks to work out.

[Quicktwinturbo]

Too much hassel, time, money imo....
Just buy E55 and call it a day...

[Slater126]

Originally Posted by Quicktwinturbo

Too much hassel, time, money imo....
Just buy E55 and call it a day...

I'll second that. I'm no MB tech by any means but from what I know of the complexity of these cars, this would be a huge hassle, and probably more expensive in the end than simply buying an E55 ready to roll.

[TemjinX2]

you know just because there the same engine doesn't mean the internals are the same.

The e55 block has forged pistons, rods, ...etc. The c55 block was designed for NA, so the components would not hold up well in a FI environment.

NA High compresson pistons + FI = engine go boom


Since your in california, you would auto fail smog by the way. Unless You have a carb legal supercharger or turbo kit. Since the e55 is on a different chassis then a c55, its technically considered a different engine. So adding a supercharger from e55 to a c55 would be a illegal mod.

You can

1. You can go with the breather options like intake, header and exhaust. Call it a day. Maybe upgrade cams, springs and valves later.

2. Sell your c55 and buy a used e55 (makes the most financial sense)

3. Spend $10-12k to build your engine for FI and a turbo

4. Buy a c55 supercharger kit, if its not carb legal your are taking a risk when you smog or if a cop gives you a ref ticket.

[CThirtyTwo]

New cars don't have to be smoged for 5 or 7 years, I forget which it is. Im not worried about passing smog or an officer looking under the hood.
I understand the differences between the c55 engine and the E55 engine. But my logic is that if the supercharger "fits" the E55, I would not think it would be that hard to make it work.

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by CThirtyTwo

New cars don't have to be smoged for 5 or 7 years, I forget which it is. Im not worried about passing smog or an officer looking under the hood.
I understand the differences between the c55 engine and the E55 engine. But my logic is that if the supercharger "fits" the E55, I would not think it would be that hard to make it work.

Its 5yrs from the production of the car if its after 2001 model. So if you have a 2005, you have to smog 2011.

If you get a ref ticket it doesn't matter that you have 2011, you still gave to go to the state ref.

Granted since your in a mercedes, you have less of chance of being pulled over, long as you understand the risks.


Just because it fits doesn't mean it'll work correctly. Your going to need the e55 ecu or retune your stock ecu to run the correct air and fuel maps.


Even then considering how oversensitive the mercedes sensors are, you still might get some cels. If this is your daily driver, i would recommend against this, unless you can afford a lot of down time on your car.

[SaMaS]

+1...

Originally Posted by Quicktwinturbo

Too much hassel, time, money imo....
Just buy E55 and call it a day...

[bmjdevelopment]

Best way to supercharge of C55 is with Kleemann.

http://www.kleemann.dk/site/Main/eng...es/nav8engines

Other board members have done it with great success.

[JToups386]

[QUOTE=TemjinX2;2765283]you know just because there the same engine doesn't mean the internals are the same.

The e55 block has forged pistons, rods, ...etc. The c55 block was designed for NA, so the components would not hold up well in a FI environment.

NA High compresson pistons + FI = engine go boom


Since your in california, you would auto fail smog by the way. Unless You have a carb legal supercharger or turbo kit. Since the e55 is on a different chassis then a c55, its technically considered a different engine. So adding a supercharger from e55 to a c55 would be a illegal mod. END QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ ____________

I'm not completely convinced of this logic. Here is my dissertation in reply...
I realize the smog laws are ridiculous in California, and the rest of the nation has CA to thank for screwing us all. But that's a whole different debate in itself.
However, if you were using a supercharger from an E55, it would obviously be a legal replacement/addition. It's the same friggin' part, whether used on the E55 or the C55. The thing you have to worry about is changes to the catalyst system, which you would not be changing. The theory above suggests it's illegal to add a supercharger to a vehicle in CA, which is certainly not the case at all, assuming the vehicle will still pass emissions standards. An OBDII car is "tested" via hooking up to the ECU and taking a reading to determine if there are any "error codes" related to emissions. If not, then the car simply must pass the visual inspection w/ the typical other tests.

As for comments about the engine not being strong enough --- that's a bit silly. The engine in the C55 is certainly up to the task of handling boost as long as you compensate for fuel and spark management issues, hence the tuning process. Most performance cars today come w/ over-engineered fuel systems capable of providing more than they're required to, ie GM's LS-based motors. I've seen many stock LS2 engines w/ aftermarket superchargers bolted on, taking them from their stock 400-ish hp range to upwards of 525 rwhp on the stock injectors and fuel pumps. I tend to believe MB would be no different. The C55 is not using the full duty cyle of the injectors nor the full capacity of the fuel pump. However, that's not to say you wouldn't have to put a larger injector in the car depending on your boost levels. It's simply a mathematical formula based on the supply ability of the stock injector vs. the necessary fuel required to run "X" amount of boost / horsepower.

As for the durability of the engine itself --- here is a direct quote from MB on the C55 engine:
Engine AMG-built 5,439-cc SOHC 24-valve 90 degree V-8 Engine. High-pressure die-cast alloy cylinder block. Reinforced crankshaft and valvetrain. Alloy heads. Lightweight camshafts. Reinforced engine block, oil pan structure, pistons, connecting rods and crankshaft.

This motor would do just fine with a little extra air flowing through it. Again, the only downside we face is the fact it's already at 11:1 compression, therefore you'd have to run less boost than a lower compression E55 setup. However, you could still make very similar power numbers w/ less boost on the higher compression, as long as you stay conservative enough to not damage anything through detonation. The simple solution is to manage the air/fuel ratio and avoid detonation. ECU tuning would absolutely be necessary!

When I bought my first turbocharged car in 1991, I learned some hard lessons about what happens when you add more boost but don't add more fuel. Since then it's been much easier to compensate for both, and therefore make much more power. If you pursue doing this, make sure you research all the options and decide accordingly. The Kleemann package would be nice, but it's outrageously priced, and I'd love to see a successful budget E55 SC swap as an interim solution...
Just my .02...

[CThirtyTwo]

Thanks

[SoCalCLK]

Originally Posted by JToups386

I'm not completely convinced of this logic. Here is my dissertation in reply...
I realize the smog laws are ridiculous in California, and the rest of the nation has CA to thank for screwing us all. But that's a whole different debate in itself.
However, if you were using a supercharger from an E55, it would obviously be a legal replacement/addition. It's the same friggin' part, whether used on the E55 or the C55. The thing you have to worry about is changes to the catalyst system, which you would not be changing. The theory above suggests it's illegal to add a supercharger to a vehicle in CA, which is certainly not the case at all, assuming the vehicle will still pass emissions standards. An OBDII car is "tested" via hooking up to the ECU and taking a reading to determine if there are any "error codes" related to emissions. If not, then the car simply must pass the visual inspection w/ the typical other tests.

As for comments about the engine not being strong enough --- that's a bit silly. The engine in the C55 is certainly up to the task of handling boost as long as you compensate for fuel and spark management issues, hence the tuning process. Most performance cars today come w/ over-engineered fuel systems capable of providing more than they're required to, ie GM's LS-based motors. I've seen many stock LS2 engines w/ aftermarket superchargers bolted on, taking them from their stock 400-ish hp range to upwards of 525 rwhp on the stock injectors and fuel pumps. I tend to believe MB would be no different. The C55 is not using the full duty cyle of the injectors nor the full capacity of the fuel pump. However, that's not to say you wouldn't have to put a larger injector in the car depending on your boost levels. It's simply a mathematical formula based on the supply ability of the stock injector vs. the necessary fuel required to run "X" amount of boost / horsepower.

As for the durability of the engine itself --- here is a direct quote from MB on the C55 engine:
Engine AMG-built 5,439-cc SOHC 24-valve 90 degree V-8 Engine. High-pressure die-cast alloy cylinder block. Reinforced crankshaft and valvetrain. Alloy heads. Lightweight camshafts. Reinforced engine block, oil pan structure, pistons, connecting rods and crankshaft.

This motor would do just fine with a little extra air flowing through it. Again, the only downside we face is the fact it's already at 11:1 compression, therefore you'd have to run less boost than a lower compression E55 setup. However, you could still make very similar power numbers w/ less boost on the higher compression, as long as you stay conservative enough to not damage anything through detonation. The simple solution is to manage the air/fuel ratio and avoid detonation. ECU tuning would absolutely be necessary!

When I bought my first turbocharged car in 1991, I learned some hard lessons about what happens when you add more boost but don't add more fuel. Since then it's been much easier to compensate for both, and therefore make much more power. If you pursue doing this, make sure you research all the options and decide accordingly. The Kleemann package would be nice, but it's outrageously priced, and I'd love to see a successful budget E55 SC swap as an interim solution...
Just my .02...

Nicely put, JT. Although buying an E55 straight out mught have been the easier road to take initially, now that all is said and done, the man has a C55. I like the possibility of a Kleemann S/C for the engine, but nothing wrong in asking the question of applying an E55 S/C instead.

My concerns are primarily:
1) ECU tuning
2) Air/Fuel mixture, making sure not to run lean, since our compression ratios are already high
3) Installation. Do you have a really good MBZ tech who can do this job and get parts if necessary?

[crazeazn]

Originally Posted by SoCalCLK

Nicely put, JT. Although buying an E55 straight out mught have been the easier road to take initially, now that all is said and done, the man has a C55. I like the possibility of a Kleemann S/C for the engine, but nothing wrong in asking the question of applying an E55 S/C instead.

My concerns are primarily:
1) ECU tuning
2) Air/Fuel mixture, making sure not to run lean, since our compression ratios are already high
3) Installation. Do you have a really good MBZ tech who can do this job and get parts if necessary?

your biggest question should be reliability. the compression ratio throws a ring into all the above.

[TemjinX2]

[QUOTE=JToups386;2766192]

Originally Posted by TemjinX2

you know just because there the same engine doesn't mean the internals are the same.

The e55 block has forged pistons, rods, ...etc. The c55 block was designed for NA, so the components would not hold up well in a FI environment.

NA High compresson pistons + FI = engine go boom


Since your in california, you would auto fail smog by the way. Unless You have a carb legal supercharger or turbo kit. Since the e55 is on a different chassis then a c55, its technically considered a different engine. So adding a supercharger from e55 to a c55 would be a illegal mod. END QUOTE]
__________________________________________________ ____________

I'm not completely convinced of this logic. Here is my dissertation in reply...
I realize the smog laws are ridiculous in California, and the rest of the nation has CA to thank for screwing us all. But that's a whole different debate in itself.
However, if you were using a supercharger from an E55, it would obviously be a legal replacement/addition. It's the same friggin' part, whether used on the E55 or the C55. The thing you have to worry about is changes to the catalyst system, which you would not be changing. The theory above suggests it's illegal to add a supercharger to a vehicle in CA, which is certainly not the case at all, assuming the vehicle will still pass emissions standards. An OBDII car is "tested" via hooking up to the ECU and taking a reading to determine if there are any "error codes" related to emissions. If not, then the car simply must pass the visual inspection w/ the typical other tests.

As for comments about the engine not being strong enough --- that's a bit silly. The engine in the C55 is certainly up to the task of handling boost as long as you compensate for fuel and spark management issues, hence the tuning process. Most performance cars today come w/ over-engineered fuel systems capable of providing more than they're required to, ie GM's LS-based motors. I've seen many stock LS2 engines w/ aftermarket superchargers bolted on, taking them from their stock 400-ish hp range to upwards of 525 rwhp on the stock injectors and fuel pumps. I tend to believe MB would be no different. The C55 is not using the full duty cyle of the injectors nor the full capacity of the fuel pump. However, that's not to say you wouldn't have to put a larger injector in the car depending on your boost levels. It's simply a mathematical formula based on the supply ability of the stock injector vs. the necessary fuel required to run "X" amount of boost / horsepower.

As for the durability of the engine itself --- here is a direct quote from MB on the C55 engine:
Engine AMG-built 5,439-cc SOHC 24-valve 90 degree V-8 Engine. High-pressure die-cast alloy cylinder block. Reinforced crankshaft and valvetrain. Alloy heads. Lightweight camshafts. Reinforced engine block, oil pan structure, pistons, connecting rods and crankshaft.

This motor would do just fine with a little extra air flowing through it. Again, the only downside we face is the fact it's already at 11:1 compression, therefore you'd have to run less boost than a lower compression E55 setup. However, you could still make very similar power numbers w/ less boost on the higher compression, as long as you stay conservative enough to not damage anything through detonation. The simple solution is to manage the air/fuel ratio and avoid detonation. ECU tuning would absolutely be necessary!

When I bought my first turbocharged car in 1991, I learned some hard lessons about what happens when you add more boost but don't add more fuel. Since then it's been much easier to compensate for both, and therefore make much more power. If you pursue doing this, make sure you research all the options and decide accordingly. The Kleemann package would be nice, but it's outrageously priced, and I'd love to see a successful budget E55 SC swap as an interim solution...
Just my .02...

The california air resource board existed before the EPA was even formed. Because of that, CARB got grandfathered in. So states had the option to go with the california standard or the federal standard. In the past states that have dense populations within a small area went with the california standard, for example new york, vermont and maine. Other states went with the federal standard.

This might change will the passage of the new federal gas bill, currently its in the courts.

When it comes to California, you are wrong on the super charger comment. Since the c55 did not come with a super charger from the factory, its considered a illegal modification.

In the past you can get away with it, if you took a engine from another model using the same chassis, which was considered a engine replacement.


For example, a 01-05 civic and a 02-06 rsx used the same chassis. The government considers it the same car. So tuners would swap the 200hp rsx engines into there civic, this is a legal mod long as you have it bar'ed.

Another example is 03-07 accord 4 cyclinder uses a k24 motor. The honda element uses the same k24 motor, since the element uses a truck chassis, it would be illegal to swap the k24 from the element into the accord. The government considers it a truck motor, even the its the same engine.


As for the engine, the quote you put doesn't say it comes with forged pistons or rods. Thats my concern, the weakest link in a NA engine when it comes to force induction is the block, its not really fuel because you can easily upgrade your injectors.

Yes he can tune it, but your still taking a chance and you are reducing your factory reliability.

I just want the poster to be aware of that. Adding FI is not as simple as adding intake or headers. Your introducing a environment that the engine was not originally intended to work in.

At the end of the day, its his engine. If he wants to do it more power to him. Post a thread about it. People should do more research on forced induction before just strapping on a turbo or a supercharger.

[Quicktwinturbo]

This is what I learned from mod'n/ tuning cars..
Do not try to make slow car go fast... Get a faster car from the start and enjoy driving it... I'm not saying C55s are slow but E55 would murder C55..

Yes, it is possible to slap on an E55 SC with mod'n and tune'n but trust me...you will have problems sooner or later. If not, it will take AWHILE to make it run right. Then you'll have some sort of problems.. Could be small as re-tune'n or big as replaceing internals of ur engine... Once u starts to have problem, you need to spend more money and less time enjoying the ride..

If it was like swaping Type R motor into a civic, everyone with C55 would've done it already... I learned that it's alot more complicated with benz cars and if one thing goes wrong, it will cost alot to fix..

But, if you have $ to blow, time to waste, it would be a neat project for sure... hell, if you got all that, why not just drop in SL65 motor...


Just my 2cents..