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Hey all,
I currently have the euro spec springs on my car with bilstein sport shocks, but im still quite unhappy with the amount of body roll (Note: i drive my car mostly at autocross and track day events, i know... thats not what its meant for, yadda yadda yadda).
In doing some suspension research, im worried that the bilsteins may be too stiff for the euro springs? the euro springs were a "stock" part so maybe they aren't all that stiff, just lower ride height? does anyone have any knowledge that the H&R sport springs might be stiffer and therefore better for body roll?
I read that the load rating for springs is not a universal measurement so its hard to compare between manufacturers. also im specifically referencing the H&R SPORT and NOT the super sport as i dont want anything lower than the euro spring height, i love where my ride height is at currently. the vogtland and H&R supersport springs are a 2" drop and thats too much for my taste and i still want some room for suspension travel.
the eibach pro springs are also listed as a 1.2" drop so i guess they may be comparable. It would be great if there is anyone from europe that upgraded from their stock euro spec springs to the h&R sport or eibach pro that can attest to the difference?
if i changed the springs i might also change to the koni adjustable shocks at the same time.
the setup i have now (bisltein sport/euro springs) really tightened up the car and i would not want to go any stiffer for public road driving but its just not quite enough for the track.
My KW suspended c43 still rolls a lot despite a strong shock rebound setting. Heavier sway bars are necessary to counteract this phenomena, but then you have to get bespoke items made as I have never seen any options on the market. You really need to do some trail braking to the apex in order to transfer the weight to the front axle.
Also I have noticed that when you are really working on the twisties, the steering has difficulty keeping up (not direct enough), not forgetting the brakes which have some difficulty keeping cool. So that's three negative factors concerning the 43.
well, i had the euro spring setup before and i never liked it!
my car was very stiff with stock factory stuff which was good, but bodyroll was like a turd.
wheelgap was 2 fingers factory height before
now with my new toys fitted last year, i have a brand new car when it comes to suspension.
koni yellow on hardest settings and vogtland springs is a good combo for me, i loev my ride now.
it doesn't feel harsh, car rides very nice on good quality tarmac
she is very stable in illegal speeds.
she wasn't that before with my old suspension
you can't go wrong with koni/vogtland
the drop is very nice looking with half finger wheelgap
my spring pad combo is #1 front and #4 rear on ET35 18 inch rims
i have no rub issues which is good
well, i had the euro spring setup before and i never liked it!
my car was very stiff with stock factory stuff which was good, but bodyroll was like a turd.
wheelgap was 2 fingers factory height before
now with my new toys fitted last year, i have a brand new car when it comes to suspension.
koni yellow on hardest settings and vogtland springs is a good combo for me, i loev my ride now.
it doesn't feel harsh, car rides very nice on good quality tarmac
she is very stable in illegal speeds.
she wasn't that before with my old suspension
you can't go wrong with koni/vogtland
the drop is very nice looking with half finger wheelgap
my spring pad combo is #1 front and #4 rear on ET35 18 inch rims
i have no rub issues which is good
Kowalski,
thanks for the feedback, but you changed your shocks and springs at the same time right? so its hard to tell if the difference you are noticing is more from the shocks or the springs alone. was hoping to get advice from anyone who ONLY swapped the springs out...
and yea the vogtland springs are too low for me, i dont like the car to look that low. right now i have a bit under 2 fingers int he front and i love it.
My KW suspended c43 still rolls a lot despite a strong shock rebound setting. Heavier sway bars are necessary to counteract this phenomena, but then you have to get bespoke items made as I have never seen any options on the market. You really need to do some trail braking to the apex in order to transfer the weight to the front axle.
Also I have noticed that when you are really working on the twisties, the steering has difficulty keeping up (not direct enough), not forgetting the brakes which have some difficulty keeping cool. So that's three negative factors concerning the 43.
yea i thought about getting the KW coilover kit, but sucks to hear that you still get a lot of body roll.
did you find that you can fine tune each corner so that it balances the understeer a bit? does not put so much weight on the outside front tire in tight corners?
for instance making that front outside shock stiffer than the others and ride height a bit higher in the front left than the other 3 to move the center of gravity away from that corner? im looking mostly to make it handle better at the track and reduce the understeer and destruction of the shoulder tread of the driver front side tire
I have the crash bolts to run a bit of negative camber. i guess next step would be the fully adjustable front camber kit but not sure how much more it will help to run 1-2 more degrees of camber vs looking at adj shocks or stiffer springs (not lower!).
yes you are right the rear sway bar is really a good solution... but none exist to buy without customization
not forgetting the brakes which have some difficulty keeping cool. So that's three negative factors concerning the 43.
i haven't really had any issues with my brakes once i upgraded the pads and lines. but at the track days im only going hard for 5-6 laps at a time before cool down so its not too crazy. Im on the brakes pretty good, but probably not as hard as i could be to pick up another second or so each lap. id rather try to make it up on correcting the cars desire to understeer.
what tire pressures do you run? i have to run about 46psi hot in the fronts to keep them from rolling over badly. i run about 36 hot in the rear, if i go much higher in the rear it starts getting a bit loose. i know some people will raise the pressure in the rear to try to balance the looseness in the rear with the understeer but i just see it as sacrificing the grip in the rear that the car does have. again, im talking at track days here.
Kowalski,
Appreciate your comments on all issues. What Koni yellow sport product number are you using. Only number I could find here was for W210 E55 Konis is 1317 sport & 1318 sport on sale at $121. each. Great price but is this correct number for C43 What made you pick Koni's over Bilstein's.
Kowalski,
Appreciate your comments on all issues. What Koni yellow sport product number are you using. Only number I could find here was for W210 E55 Konis is 1317 sport & 1318 sport on sale at $121. each. Great price but is this correct number for C43 What made you pick Koni's over Bilstein's.
hey bud
i got koni's because i wanted to try something new and more racier, people had good things to say about these Dutch shox and they were helluva lot cheaper than factory shox
partsnumber you found is not for C43, they are for E55
these are the correct #'s for C43AMG
front 8041-1315SPORT
rear 8041-1316SPORT
just wanted to add some more speculative discussion to this topic.
i do a lot of autocrossing and i have lots of pics of my car on the courses, i found 2 pics that appear to show the car at full lean (obviously no way to know for sure). but out of many pictures these were the ones i found in both suspension setups where the car had THE MOST body roll, leading me to believe the car is in full lean.
The pic on the left is a couple seasons ago with my stock dampers and euro springs.
the pic on the right is bilstein sport dampers with euro springs.
I rotated and resized the photos so that the rear tires are on the same plane and as close to the same angle as possible and so that the overall diameter of the rear tire is the same in both, so its as true of a comparison as i can try to get.
the uppermost red line is at the very bottom edge of the rear fender of the right photo, its in the same position of the left photo, where you can see with the stock dampers the fender is noticeably higher... more body roll.
ballpark guess is that its about 12-15mm more fender height on the left?
again, just trying to learn more about how shocks/springs affect the cars handling in real life. i know there are many other variables in this situation, but this is the best representation i have seen anyone try to show with our cars. and knowing these courses i can attest that the turns and speeds of the car were very similar in both cases.
I dont know what your skill level is but ive talked to a few very experienced drivers on this subject and what i got out is that a little roll doesnt hurt at all and can even be a good thing....maybe not at auto cross where its usually a small and tight track but on real circuits i guess it allows for more fun handling.
from those pictures the car doesnt look bad at all. You should see the US stock version. My car was like a 4x4 when it was stock.
nice pics!
though they may be a bit deceiving, it looks as though you are on a pretty steep incline/embankment, which is a completely different dynamic. my shots were on virtually flat ground.
i have some pics of a monza bowl secton of a road track near me that looks similar yours, though my tires may not be tucked as much
and yea you are right about body roll not always being a bad thing. E36 M3's have tons of body roll at autocross and track days, yet they handle/drive through the courses much faster (even after equalizing the driver).
thats what makes suspension tweaking so complex, because it takes so many other factors into account. the biggest difference between those E36 cars and ours being weight distribution and overall weight IMHO.
the F/R distribution on an E36 M3 is 49.8 front and 50.2 rear, with a curb weight of 3219 lbs.
our car is listed as either 57/43 or 55/45 with a curb weight of 3450.
the main thing our cars need is to reduce some of the load on that front outside tire in corners. since we have no sway bar options we have to try to do it with dampers and springs.
so what im saying is that if we had more balanced weight distribution the body roll may not be so much of an issue (like how its not as much of an issue on the E36)... oh well, still like the C43 better :-)
Last edited by Dziner82; 07-17-2014 at 04:15 PM.
Reason: typo
I understand you probably dont wanna alter the car too much but my friend here had his sun toof deleted on that c36 and he says the difference is really noticeable just by doing that.
The car doesnt have that extra weight on top of it that wobbles around when you rail corners. It makes quite a difference
True but that only means even less roll on a flat surface.
Btw on slicks hes gripping way more which means more body roll.
probably need to get someone to verify that is smarter than me but i dont think either of these statements are necessarily true, at least pertaining to this particular instance.
- im pretty sure there would be more roll on a flat surface, on that steep incline the car is already heavily leaning towards the inside via gravity being that its an on camber turn, and the turn is fighting that momentum so its where hypothetically you are getting the 'least' body roll. off camber turn woudl give you the most 'hypothetically and flat surface i guess being in the middle
most of the suspension compression in your photo is due to centrifugal Force pulling the car lower to the ground at all corners vs body roll.
- if it were a flat surface the slicks would make a much greater difference, the steep embankment is mean to increase grip in the corners so the car has TONS of grip in those bowls no matter the tire. so yea on a flat surface the slicks would put more roll into the chassis, but in that bowl i dont think they are making much difference in the roll. assuming its relatively tight and he is not doing 80+ mph through there.
either way i dont even know what we are discussing at this point... if you have pics of that car leaning on a flat surface that would be a nice addition with my comparison photo
I understand you probably dont wanna alter the car too much but my friend here had his sun toof deleted on that c36 and he says the difference is really noticeable just by doing that.
The car doesnt have that extra weight on top of it that wobbles around when you rail corners. It makes quite a difference
i did htink about doing some weight reduction on the car but it just didnt seem like the right thing to do to the car
which is why im now comtemplating not doing too much else to the car and just trying to get a tad better handling and just try to drive it as best i can... then get another car that i can gut out for weight reduction and that has a better suspension aftermarket and lower weight
Hey all,
I currently have the euro spec springs on my car with bilstein sport shocks, but im still quite unhappy with the amount of body roll (Note: i drive my car mostly at autocross and track day events, i know... thats not what its meant for, yadda yadda yadda).
In doing some suspension research, im worried that the bilsteins may be too stiff for the euro springs? the euro springs were a "stock" part so maybe they aren't all that stiff, just lower ride height? does anyone have any knowledge that the H&R sport springs might be stiffer and therefore better for body roll?
I read that the load rating for springs is not a universal measurement so its hard to compare between manufacturers. also im specifically referencing the H&R SPORT and NOT the super sport as i dont want anything lower than the euro spring height, i love where my ride height is at currently. the vogtland and H&R supersport springs are a 2" drop and thats too much for my taste and i still want some room for suspension travel.
the eibach pro springs are also listed as a 1.2" drop so i guess they may be comparable. It would be great if there is anyone from europe that upgraded from their stock euro spec springs to the h&R sport or eibach pro that can attest to the difference?
if i changed the springs i might also change to the koni adjustable shocks at the same time.
the setup i have now (bisltein sport/euro springs) really tightened up the car and i would not want to go any stiffer for public road driving but its just not quite enough for the track.
thanks for any feedback!
Hi, May I ask if you still have your C43? Is it current on H&R Sport spring / Bilstein B8 shocks? I recently working on restore a 98 C43, the OEM shocks is dying and I am trying to replace with the W208 Bilstein B8 / H&R Sport, but I am worry about it will be lower than my expectation, my original plan is going with as OEM look as possible, handling upgrade is a plus, therefore I hope to learn how the car looks with Bilstein B8 and H&R Sport spring, do you have picture to share?
Hi, May I ask if you still have your C43? Is it current on H&R Sport spring / Bilstein B8 shocks? I recently working on restore a 98 C43, the OEM shocks is dying and I am trying to replace with the W208 Bilstein B8 / H&R Sport, but I am worry about it will be lower than my expectation, my original plan is going with as OEM look as possible, handling upgrade is a plus, therefore I hope to learn how the car looks with Bilstein B8 and H&R Sport spring, do you have picture to share?
Are you looking to go the OEM North American look or the European and ROW look? They are different, if you didn't know. The N. American makes it look like a SUV, while the others are more "normal" looking.
P.S. BTW you can tune the suspension height to a certain amount by playing with the pads. They come in different thicknesses.
Are you looking to go the OEM North American look or the European and ROW look? They are different, if you didn't know. The N. American makes it look like a SUV, while the others are more "normal" looking.
P.S. BTW you can tune the suspension height to a certain amount by playing with the pads. They come in different thicknesses.
Thank you for your reply, either OEM North American look or European look is fine with me, as I know the European version is slightly lower than North American version, which is OK, it does looks better, however from what learn here, my assumption is even with H&R Sport(Not Super Sport), it will drop the car for 2" which is lower than European version and it is too low for me, therefore hopefully we have members here with Bilstein B8 / H&R Sport setup which can validate my assumption?
Hi, May I ask if you still have your C43? Is it current on H&R Sport spring / Bilstein B8 shocks? I recently working on restore a 98 C43, the OEM shocks is dying and I am trying to replace with the W208 Bilstein B8 / H&R Sport, but I am worry about it will be lower than my expectation, my original plan is going with as OEM look as possible, handling upgrade is a plus, therefore I hope to learn how the car looks with Bilstein B8 and H&R Sport spring, do you have picture to share?
HI - yeah I do still have my C43 - and I also had since acquired a 2001 CLK55.
I transferred my H&R super sport springs and the B8s to the CLK. I ended up ordering the Euro spec springs for the C43 and Just last year I replaced the OEM euro shocks with Bilstein B6. B6 is the closer equivalent to OEM for the C43 - though still a bit firmer. B8 as i understand it have the same rebound/damping rates as the B6 they are just in a shorter housing for less travel on lowered cars, and therefore with less travel the feel is a bit different. (I believe they recommend 2" lowering for the B8). I would not recomment the B8 for anyone who wants to be close to OEM or is not autocrossing or tracking the car (which is what I do with my CLK). Im pretty sure im probably the only person that is currently running both shocks and in the past 3 different sets of springs on the C43 (super sports, NA OEM, and Euro) , maybe im wrong there - someone else probably has in the past.
For what you are describing I think you have 2 options, but both would involve bilstein B6
1. B6 shocks, H&R SPORT springs, and then experiment with the spring perch pads.
2. B6 shocks, OEM EURO springs, and then experiment with the spring pads, but I can tell you if you use the euro springs you will want probably 3nub or 4 nub spring pads to not have it be quite low.
See attached photos, this is my C43 just a couple days ago, B6's about 1.5 years old on it with the euro springs and I think I now have the 1 num (thinnest) spring pads on it. lighting is not perfect, but I have probably a 1.5 finger gap in the front and 2 in the back. the front is quite low but im happy with it, the gap on the fenders are close to uniform all around the tire - which is the look I wanted.
HI - yeah I do still have my C43 - and I also had since acquired a 2001 CLK55.
I transferred my H&R super sport springs and the B8s to the CLK. I ended up ordering the Euro spec springs for the C43 and Just last year I replaced the OEM euro shocks with Bilstein B6. B6 is the closer equivalent to OEM for the C43 - though still a bit firmer. B8 as i understand it have the same rebound/damping rates as the B6 they are just in a shorter housing for less travel on lowered cars, and therefore with less travel the feel is a bit different. (I believe they recommend 2" lowering for the B8). I would not recomment the B8 for anyone who wants to be close to OEM or is not autocrossing or tracking the car (which is what I do with my CLK). Im pretty sure im probably the only person that is currently running both shocks and in the past 3 different sets of springs on the C43 (super sports, NA OEM, and Euro) , maybe im wrong there - someone else probably has in the past.
For what you are describing I think you have 2 options, but both would involve bilstein B6
1. B6 shocks, H&R SPORT springs, and then experiment with the spring perch pads.
2. B6 shocks, OEM EURO springs, and then experiment with the spring pads, but I can tell you if you use the euro springs you will want probably 3nub or 4 nub spring pads to not have it be quite low.
See attached photos, this is my C43 just a couple days ago, B6's about 1.5 years old on it with the euro springs and I think I now have the 1 num (thinnest) spring pads on it. lighting is not perfect, but I have probably a 1.5 finger gap in the front and 2 in the back. the front is quite low but im happy with it, the gap on the fenders are close to uniform all around the tire - which is the look I wanted.
Thank you very much for your help Sir! This is really helpful, do you still remember B6 Product Number on your C43? Visited Bilstein website, they don't have anything for C43, should I get something for W205 CLK55? or CLK430?
06-25-2014, 04:56 PM
but ive talked to a few very experienced drivers on this subject and what i got out is that a little roll doesnt hurt at all and can even be a good thing....maybe not at auto cross where its usually a small and tight track but on real circuits i guess it allows for more fun handling.
