Question about 5.4 swap: Labor/skill required
07-15-2014, 05:03 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Question about 5.4 swap: Labor/skill required
hey all,
after being a C43 owner for a few years and absorbing all of the info on here, especially the 5.4 swap thread, i have a couple questions or observations that i would like your opinion on that will sway my decision on whether or not to do the swap on my car:
1. After obtaining the 5.4 engine: it seems that the most important aspect is making sure the engine is in good condition before putting it into the car. inspecting the heads, seals, pistons, rings, as much as possible without completely taking the engine apart piece by piece.
2. During installation: it seems that this is pretty straight forward with the fact that its the same engine as the 4.3 with different bore and stroke. as clearly mentioned in the swap thread the only thing to 'modify' is potentially the oil pan and the water inlet freeze plug depending on the donor chassis.
So here is my question: if I were to get a motor shipped to me, or find one locally, would it make sense for me to directly ship the engine to a good engine shop or certified MB mechanic and give the engine itself an inspection in terms of seals, compression, balancing, etc and once i have sign off from them that its in good shape then im ready to put it in the car?
I ask this because i think between myself and a couple friends we have the ability and the tools to do the actual engine swap ourselves, but i want to make sure the engine is is in good shape before putting it in the car. knowing what needs to be done to the actual engine before it goes into the car is what i am not confident in doing myself.
doing this would save me the 8+ hours of shop labor for the actual swap (is that an accurate estimate?) which is what my main concern is... the overall cost of it all.
its looking like decent mileage engines are anywhere between $1600 and $2000, then maybe a few hundred for valve cover seals, rear main seal, etc (?) assuming the main parts of the engine are in good shape?
so hopefully i could save the $6-$700 in shop labor for the swap?
does this make sense or is it not worth the risk of doing the swap with a few buddies in their garage to save on the actual swap labor? i suppose the extra $700 in labor might be worth it in the long run?
just looking for opinions from people who have done the swap or just know about doing engine swaps in general. Im not any sort of mechanic, im more of a driver
after being a C43 owner for a few years and absorbing all of the info on here, especially the 5.4 swap thread, i have a couple questions or observations that i would like your opinion on that will sway my decision on whether or not to do the swap on my car:
1. After obtaining the 5.4 engine: it seems that the most important aspect is making sure the engine is in good condition before putting it into the car. inspecting the heads, seals, pistons, rings, as much as possible without completely taking the engine apart piece by piece.
2. During installation: it seems that this is pretty straight forward with the fact that its the same engine as the 4.3 with different bore and stroke. as clearly mentioned in the swap thread the only thing to 'modify' is potentially the oil pan and the water inlet freeze plug depending on the donor chassis.
So here is my question: if I were to get a motor shipped to me, or find one locally, would it make sense for me to directly ship the engine to a good engine shop or certified MB mechanic and give the engine itself an inspection in terms of seals, compression, balancing, etc and once i have sign off from them that its in good shape then im ready to put it in the car?
I ask this because i think between myself and a couple friends we have the ability and the tools to do the actual engine swap ourselves, but i want to make sure the engine is is in good shape before putting it in the car. knowing what needs to be done to the actual engine before it goes into the car is what i am not confident in doing myself.
doing this would save me the 8+ hours of shop labor for the actual swap (is that an accurate estimate?) which is what my main concern is... the overall cost of it all.
its looking like decent mileage engines are anywhere between $1600 and $2000, then maybe a few hundred for valve cover seals, rear main seal, etc (?) assuming the main parts of the engine are in good shape?
so hopefully i could save the $6-$700 in shop labor for the swap?
does this make sense or is it not worth the risk of doing the swap with a few buddies in their garage to save on the actual swap labor? i suppose the extra $700 in labor might be worth it in the long run?
just looking for opinions from people who have done the swap or just know about doing engine swaps in general. Im not any sort of mechanic, im more of a driver
07-15-2014, 07:18 PM
#2
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Carlsson CM60 EX:C36AMG'96
sorry for not answering your question. But I wish I could get the swap done for 700. That would make me buy a c43 immediately. I you havent got much experience on this why not trow the cash in? just to be sure I would say
07-15-2014, 08:07 PM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
either way the rest of the post is still valid, change out 700 for 1200 if you want...
07-16-2014, 10:09 AM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would recommend buying an E55 or CLK55 engine if at all possible. That simply requires the coolant pipe change over. I have an S55 engine, which requires changing upper oil pan and oil pump, which I am in the process of sourcing parts for. Having not done the swap yet, that is the extent of personal experience that I can give you on this particular swap.
07-16-2014, 10:45 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I would recommend buying an E55 or CLK55 engine if at all possible. That simply requires the coolant pipe change over. I have an S55 engine, which requires changing upper oil pan and oil pump, which I am in the process of sourcing parts for. Having not done the swap yet, that is the extent of personal experience that I can give you on this particular swap.
07-16-2014, 11:45 AM
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would probably dare to do this my self if i had a place and tools. How hard can it really be?
Things can go in only one way lol, just spend a few weeks researching it and making sure you know what to be cautious about. The 5.4 thread together with a few threads over at club202 give you enough info to write a book on this subject
Things can go in only one way lol, just spend a few weeks researching it and making sure you know what to be cautious about. The 5.4 thread together with a few threads over at club202 give you enough info to write a book on this subject
07-16-2014, 05:45 PM
#7
Super Member
Easiest swap is with MY2000 W208 ME2.0 just need the coolant plug,if its 208/210 ME2.8 then you need your C43 ME2.0 harness(have to remove intake plenum to access knock sensors so new gaskets required for plenum,TB and EGR) and also use some other parts like throttle body etc from C43 due to different plugs.
It could be worth while getting the engine checked out though I am not sure how you would guarantee the valve train/timing is in good shape without running it.
The direct swap is fairly straight forward though I suggest you find a copy of WIS and familiarise yourself with any procedure where you disconnect or replace parts,it will save you in the long run and supply you with all the right torque specs.
I've found its the small stuff which takes longest, ie you want to replace the rear seal, you may need new drive plate to crank bolts these are torque to yield, if you want it to stay dry you'll need a new magnesium housing to go with the seal and maybe an insertion tool to get it lined up on the crank, you might want to use the MB sealant for 2mm spec'd bead which only works well with the MB 50ml corking gun,you will want to use appropriate cleaners and follow the specified sealant path spec'd in WIS. When you disconnect the trans you'll drop the fluid, you may want to replace the pilot bush/filter/sump seal and fluids as well and you'll need the dip stick and SDS to check temp/oil at 80 degree but at minimum a thermo cam. you'll need new alloy crush washers for the trans cooler banjo's these are torque to yeild. the crank pully is different on the 5.4 if its still the recall one you'll probably have to buy a new genuine one with new style bolt,I couldn't find one aftermarket so very expensive,you might also replace the front seal while doing this. if you remove exhaust manifolds you'll need new gaskets and nuts, make sure to clean the studs dry of oil otherwise you will strip the nut at 16nm torque spec.
you get the picture
It could be worth while getting the engine checked out though I am not sure how you would guarantee the valve train/timing is in good shape without running it.
The direct swap is fairly straight forward though I suggest you find a copy of WIS and familiarise yourself with any procedure where you disconnect or replace parts,it will save you in the long run and supply you with all the right torque specs.
I've found its the small stuff which takes longest, ie you want to replace the rear seal, you may need new drive plate to crank bolts these are torque to yield, if you want it to stay dry you'll need a new magnesium housing to go with the seal and maybe an insertion tool to get it lined up on the crank, you might want to use the MB sealant for 2mm spec'd bead which only works well with the MB 50ml corking gun,you will want to use appropriate cleaners and follow the specified sealant path spec'd in WIS. When you disconnect the trans you'll drop the fluid, you may want to replace the pilot bush/filter/sump seal and fluids as well and you'll need the dip stick and SDS to check temp/oil at 80 degree but at minimum a thermo cam. you'll need new alloy crush washers for the trans cooler banjo's these are torque to yeild. the crank pully is different on the 5.4 if its still the recall one you'll probably have to buy a new genuine one with new style bolt,I couldn't find one aftermarket so very expensive,you might also replace the front seal while doing this. if you remove exhaust manifolds you'll need new gaskets and nuts, make sure to clean the studs dry of oil otherwise you will strip the nut at 16nm torque spec.
you get the picture
Last edited by Pagz; 07-20-2014 at 03:29 AM.
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07-17-2014, 01:47 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I've found its the small stuff which takes longest, ie you want to replace the rear seal, you may need new drive plate to crank bolts these are torque to yield, if you want it to stay dry you'll need a new magnesium housing to go with the seal and maybe an insertion tool to get it lined up on the crank, you might want to use the MB sealant which only works well with the MB 50ml corking gun. When you disconnect the trans you'll drop the fluid, you may want to replace the pilot bush/filter and fluids as well and you'll need the dip stick and SDS to check temp/oil at 80 degree but at minimum a thermo cam. you'll need new alloy crush washers for the trans cooler banjo's these are torque to yeild. the crank pully is different on the 5.4 if its still the recall one you'll probably have to buy a new genuine one with bolt new style bolt,I couldn't find one aftermarket so very expensive,you might also replace the front seal while doing this. if you remove exhaust manifolds you'll need new gaskets and nuts, make sure to clean the studs dry of oil otherwise you will strip the nut at 16nm torque spec.
you get the picture
you get the picture
yea i get it, thanks for the post. this is what i was looking for...
basically when i read the swap threads it makes it sound like lego blocks take one out and put one in... and potential oil leaks... so was looking for someone to come out and say the things that you did
i dont drive my car often and store it in the winter, so it would be a winter project for me for sure if i did decide to to it, so the small things wouldn't set me back too much in terms of time.
but im getting the impression that depending on how much free time i have (not a ton) that it might just be worth taking it to a competent shop to get done. maybe i pull my own engine out first, save that part of the labor at least, then tow the car to the shop for the 5.4 install.
still up in the air though, i think for me the money and effort might be more valuable in trying to get the car to handle just a bit better.
07-17-2014, 05:31 PM
#9
Super Member
Sure no problem. I think it depends on how much repairs you would like to do whilst the engine is out and easy to work on.
Generally you need a lot of specific tools to replace parts and avoid damage,If your time is limited as well you would best pay the extra and have the appropriate mechanic install it. ie if you replace the crank pully you'll need a crank pully holder,torque wrench for 200NM and something to torque to yield after that. So savings could be offset by tooling cost a lot of the time.
If so then yes doing as much as possible ie removing your original engine before hand would save a lot of time/money, just make sure all the parts are cleaned ready for reinstallation if needed.
. I think it depends on how much repairs you would like to do whilst the engine is out and easy to work on. Generally you need a lot of specific tools to replace parts and avoid damage,If your time is limited as well you would best pay the extra and have the appropriate mechanic install it. ie if you replace the crank pully you'll need a crank pully holder,torque wrench for 200NM and something to torque to yield after that. So savings could be offset by tooling cost a lot of the time.
If so then yes doing as much as possible ie removing your original engine before hand would save a lot of time/money, just make sure all the parts are cleaned ready for reinstallation if needed.
07-18-2014, 12:27 AM
#10
Super Member
Youre not really going to get a shop to inspect those things without them taking the motor apart. you can't inspect rings without full d&a. even a compression test wont be easy without it being in the car and that should be the least of your worries anyway.
I did a pretty full rebuild on mine and am very happy I did. valves get carboned, rings get carboned, only way to really clean these is by taking apart and doing it. timing chain sprockets wear. it all depends how good you want to feel about it. my rod bearings had slight copper coming through, good thing they got replaced. Engine runs quiet, smooth, goes like hell and and is good to go for a very long time.
If nothing else, replace the rear main, reseal valve covers and oil pans, check all pulleys for wear. Give good oil change and try to get the lowest mile and cleanest one you can if youre not going to rebuild. but dont waste your money having a shop look at it because thats about all they can do without disassembly, which costs big money because this kind of thing takes time, you dont want to rush it.
I did a pretty full rebuild on mine and am very happy I did. valves get carboned, rings get carboned, only way to really clean these is by taking apart and doing it. timing chain sprockets wear. it all depends how good you want to feel about it. my rod bearings had slight copper coming through, good thing they got replaced. Engine runs quiet, smooth, goes like hell and and is good to go for a very long time.
If nothing else, replace the rear main, reseal valve covers and oil pans, check all pulleys for wear. Give good oil change and try to get the lowest mile and cleanest one you can if youre not going to rebuild. but dont waste your money having a shop look at it because thats about all they can do without disassembly, which costs big money because this kind of thing takes time, you dont want to rush it.
07-18-2014, 12:31 AM
#12
Super Member
I would recommend buying an E55 or CLK55 engine if at all possible. That simply requires the coolant pipe change over. I have an S55 engine, which requires changing upper oil pan and oil pump, which I am in the process of sourcing parts for. Having not done the swap yet, that is the extent of personal experience that I can give you on this particular swap.
07-18-2014, 12:32 AM
#13
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Sure no problem. I think it depends on how much repairs you would like to do whilst the engine is out and easy to work on.
Generally you need a lot of specific tools to replace parts and avoid damage,If your time is limited as well you would best pay the extra and have the appropriate mechanic install it. ie if you replace the crank pully you'll need a crank pully holder,torque wrench for 200NM and something to torque to yield after that. So savings could be offset by tooling cost a lot of the time.
If so then yes doing as much as possible ie removing your original engine before hand would save a lot of time/money, just make sure all the parts are cleaned ready for reinstallation if needed.
. I think it depends on how much repairs you would like to do whilst the engine is out and easy to work on. Generally you need a lot of specific tools to replace parts and avoid damage,If your time is limited as well you would best pay the extra and have the appropriate mechanic install it. ie if you replace the crank pully you'll need a crank pully holder,torque wrench for 200NM and something to torque to yield after that. So savings could be offset by tooling cost a lot of the time.
If so then yes doing as much as possible ie removing your original engine before hand would save a lot of time/money, just make sure all the parts are cleaned ready for reinstallation if needed.
ZAYED,,
