mickey13

Just wondering if any of you guys have heard of these places.

http://nycengine.com/westchester_cra...ck-machining/#

http://www.fonseperformance.com/

http://www.westonmachine.com/

http://www.nickersonperformance.com/...ve/a_shop.html

http://www.meltons.com/services/machine-fuel-shop/

http://bitnerautomotive.com/machine-...services-menu/

The only shop that was actually recommended to me was the one in NYC, the Westchester shop. the others are local shops that i found online.

just browsing along online i came across pricing (not from any of the above listed shops but guessing most shops should be somewhere around here, although i have had some very different estimates, one from a well known company and another from a shop that claims to specialize in BMWs): anyway looks like sleeving is around $150 to $200 per cylinder plus the cost of the sleeve (which nobody makes for the 5.4, so it has to be custom sleeve no matter what). and i also am hearing to steer clear of darton or LA anyway. go with melling or advanced out in ohio.


anyway thoughts?

Engine Block Aluminum
Degrease by Chemical & Hi-Pressure Wash – $60
Pressure Test – Estimate
Bore and Hone – $15/hole
Hone only – $10/hole
Line Hone – $100
Block Decking – $125
Bolt Hole & Thread Repair – Estimate
Replace Freeze & Galley Plugs – $30
Replace Cam Bearings – Estimate
Install Cylinder Sleeve – $150 + sleeve

Cylinder Head Aluminum
Degrease – Starting at $50
Pressure Test – Starting at $50
Install Freeze Plugs – $3/each
Replace Valve Seats – $12/each
Replace Valve Guides – $7/each
Machine Valve Seats for 3 Angle Cut –
V8 – $75
V6 – $65
4 Cyl. – $80
Regrind Valves – $1/each
Spark Plug Hole Thread Repair – Estimate
Resurface Head Gasket Surface Area – $40/head
Minor Aluminum Welding – Estimate



Here's another shop's prices:

Machine Shop - Labor Prices
Head Work
V-8 Valve Grind (Pr) $120.00
Pro Sportsman Valve Grind & Blend (Pr) $250.00
Competition Valve Grind (Pr) $350.00
Grind Valves (Set) $ 40.00
Back-Cut Valves (Set) $ 20.00
Surface Heads (up to .020) (Ea) $ 25.00
O-Ring Heads (.041 wire) (Pr) $120.00
Cut Heads for Loc-Wire (Pr) $120.00
Cut for Teflon Seals (Pr) $ 32.00
Cut for Large Springs (Pr) $ 32.00
Mill & CC Heads (Pr) $100.00
Clean Assemble Set Spring Height $ 80.00
Cut for Seats (1st seat) $ 30.00
Cut for Add'l Seats (2-7) (Per Head) $ 20.00
Hone Guides (Ea) $ 2.00
Install Guides (Ea) $ 5.00
Mill Int. or Ex. Side (Per Surface) $ 5.00
Angle Mill Head Correct Int. Side & Ream Head Bolt Holes $200.00
Clean Heads (Ea) $ 20.00
Custom Machine Work (Hr) $ 60.00
Head Repair - Aluminum Heads Per Quote

Block Work
Bore V-8 Block (up to .060) $120.00
Pro Sportsman Hone (with plate) $250.00
Competition Hone (with plate) $350.00
Finishing of Custom Unfinished Race Block Per Quote
Align Hone $125.00
Block True/Square Deck (up to .020) $185.00
Deck Heights over.020 Removed By Quote
Install 3 center 4 Bolts Caps $350.00
Install 5 Caps $500.00
Sleeve Cylinder Bores (Ea) $ 60.00
Install Cam Bearings $ 30.00
Machine / Align Bore for Big Ford Cam Bearings $600.00
Big Ford Bearings $125.00
Hone Small End to Float Pin (Ea) $ 5.00
Hone Big End to Resize (Ea) $ 6.00
Rebuild Rods (Ea) $ 10.00
Replace & Hone Pin Bushings (Ea) $ 10.00
Balancing V-8 Assemblies (Heavy Metal to Balance Additional Time & Material) $250.00
Balancing Flywheel & Pressure Plate $ 75.00

Pro Sportsman Porting Work
Gasket Match Intake Side (Pr) $125.00
Gasket Match Exhaust Side (Pr) $125.00
Bowl Blend (Pr) $150.00
Polish Chambers (Pr) $285.00
Intake Match, Bowl Blend, Polish Chamber& Exhaust Port (Pr) $650.00
Full Competition Port & Polish (Pr) $1,100.00
Port Welding to Reshape (Per Hr.) $ 80.00

Crank Grinding
Index Rods - Grind Mains $100.00
Polish Only $ 50.00
Offset Grind for Stroker $250.00

ALL PRICES ARE LABOR ONLY!


Here's another:

BLOCK WORK
Bore & Hone Block Hone Block
V8: $260 V8: $122
V6: $231 V6: $117
Inline 6: $217 Inline 6: $117
Inline 4: $157 Inline 4: $102
With torque plate add: $130* With torque plate add: $130*
* Includes tapping head bolt holes
Install cam bearings: $85 (plus cost of fitting if needed)
Hot tank and install freeze plugs: $146 (includes removing & installing all oil galley plugs and magnaflux)
Deck Cylinder Block
V8: $159 Inline 6: $123
V6: $159 Inline 4: $123
• All blocks are decked off main saddle •
Line bore block standard: $290
Line bore block & add steel caps splayed: $85/hour
Magnaflux block: $43
lnstall cylinder sleeve: $203 plus price of sleeve
Install bronze lifter bore sleeves: $702
O-Ring block: $318

DRBC43AMG

Just wondering if you should also post this in another forum page where the M113 5,4 engine is better known and used

Sulaco

I hope I'm wrong, but I would be very hesitant to dump that kind of cash into an old alusil V8, especially when you can buy a healthy running one for less than 1200 these days.

what's your goal here? to rescue a bad 5.4 or are you chasing big horsepower?

mickey13

isnt everyone who does a swap in these cars after HP?



idk, i think $2200 for a built bottom is a very good deal. i have been quoted between $5000 and $6000 from 2 shops already (were not local shops and did not include shipping), guess its the MB tax?

darton has sleeves that are for a 5.4, but they don't know for which m113 . (m113 v m113k) i'm fairly certain they are for the m113k even though darton could care less if i get the right product. they sent me the spec sheet and basically told me it was up to me to figure out of they fit or not. anyway, m113 and m113k are not the same engine so i am fairly certain they do not fit unless by some fluke the machine shop can make them fit. i previously learned that the m113k is a stroked 5.0, where the m113 was more of a true 5.4. idk what that means dimension-wise as i only have the m113 block to measure, but guessing that m113 is a shorter/wider block.

OK. so i probably will not be buying darton (think they were $1500-$1700 alone) that seems expensive to me, particularly when i have to "guess" if they will work on my application. why is there such a high premium on development cost when darton cant even tell me whether this is the right product for my application...

bottom line is that its just an aluminum engine with alusil coating, but it is still aluminum not some other metal. alusil makes the aluminum a little stronger and also smoother for less friction. but the aluminum engine treated with the alusil coating is still only aluminum. it is not harder or stronger than cast iron, it is just a bit harder than natural aluminum. if they have the tools to bore, hone or score a much harder-stronger metal like iron then why do people think they cant do the same to a softer metal like aluminum or a softer metal like alusil treated aluminum? the answer is they can and they do and it really doesnt cost them any more money or time to do it. and they use the same machines they just want to charge more money because people will pay it. they do not fly your block up to the moon to do the work or use some crazy imported machine they will never use again.

the cost of sleeving is offset as the price of pistons drops dramatically and you can get way stronger pistons with bigger rings etc for less than what you would pay if you stuck with alusil coating.

Sulaco

right, but I'm just wondering how you plan on getting more hp out of it? stiffening and building the bottom end doesn't add power, it just makes it more tolerant to power gains. are you planning on doing some big blower or twin turbo setup?

I also thought the blocks weren't coated, the "alusil" means the cylinders are made of aluminum-silicon while the rest of the block is just regular aluminum they cast around it to save weight?

mickey13

hp will come later in the form of a s/c or tt. not really in a rush to do the whole thing at once. can still play with the heads and exhaust after the bottom is done.

the alusil portion of the engine, whether it is the entire engine or a block within the engine (cylinder block) is made from aluminum with added silicone molecules. that material, aluminum + silicone is only slightly stronger than aluminum alone. once the cylinders are bore [yes they bore this aluminum/silicone material] (or if they are pre-cast), the manufacturer then treats the area that the piston will come into contact with. (it can be treated by dipping in a bath or it can be treated by honing) either way, it is basically an acid they use to etch away the aluminum and leave only the silicone behind. this silicone "barrier" is where the strength and reduction of friction are. (think of dupont coating now - all manufacturers are looking to not only strengthen but REDUCE FRICTION AND HEAT) the reason any machine shop can bore one of these cylinders out is because the silicone "barrier" (coating if you will) is probably only 1000s of a micrometer thick. you can understand this if you understand the process of creating that barrier which again simply strips the aluminum off the silicone, so unlike a traditional coating which is applied ON TO the cylinder wall, this coating is created by the material already inside the metal just behind the cylinder wall.

so with this process... yes you can re-alusil (re-coat) your cylinders if they are in spec and will remain in spec after the etching.

plenty of manufacturers use (coated) iron sleeves in aluminum engines, they use aluminum sleeves, they sometimes just bore out and use coatings that might be brush on or powder coating.

Sulaco

Very interesting!

what do you plan on doing about electronics and ecu?

nkctb7

For what it's worth. The two machine shops that diagnosed my first 55 block claimed that Darton sleeves are way overpriced and aren't nearly as good as many generic sleeves. The one machinist in general was referred by everyone as "The Guru" amongst all other machinists in Canada. Customers from eastern Canada were shipping their blocks for this guy to do. The other local machinist I took it to was recommended by the guru machinist as he said he was a master in sleeving aluminum blocks. He also stated to stay clear of Darton stating they're just a name that you're paying for and their quality is subpar. He stated that if I was going to go ahead with sleeving the block that he recommended top hat steel sleeves.

mickey13

Hey nkctb7, you are right. i misspoke and meant to reference steel sleeves instead of cast iron. got confused with the old block material. i have read steel is the best too.

i dont know what im going to do with the ecu yet. probably nothing at first it'll just be a bit of porting/polishing and opening the exhaust. im definitely not a guru myself so i'll have to come back to this board and get some help with it. i havent found any website more knowledgeable on MB than this board right here. you can learn a lot of things about cars in general all over the web, but if you want to learn about MB, this is the place to be. even things that i learn off site about MB all started from something i read here. i'll give more thought to the ecu when the times comes i think LOL baby steps

mickey13

are you thinking e55 forum? not a bad idea.

Sulaco

well, you know you won't have to worry about the ECU until you start going forced induction. if you're just going with N/A the ECU adapts just fine, apparently.

I'm very very interested in your results! if you can do all this to an m113 block for less than an arm and a leg, I have my spare 4.3 motor with 297k miles on it. I kept it in case my car ever becomes valuable and the original motor increases value (probably never going to happen) but if it's not too bad I can do the same as you and have it torn down and built. don't the 4.3 and 5.4 have the exact same heads and cams?

mickey13

yeah i think it can be done on the cheap or at least on par with average engine building cost minus the crazy mb tax people are always trying to hit you with. where it seems costs add up is on just all the incidental stuff you need, like bearings, bolts, etc.(can run up to maybe $1000), but there is also the costs of pistons, rings, pins, rods, (probably another $1500 guesstimate)
so having the bottom done would probably run close to $5, but that should include sleeves, forged internals, polishing, balancing, etc. only thing left to do after that is slap everything else on and drop it in. so idk if that is on the cheap compared to maybe a 4cyl honda build, but you'd have a w202 capable of serious hp. or... i guess what a lot of us have all thought about was the m113k swap. that would definitely be "on the cheap"

lets say the c43 is worth about $5000, you spend another $1000 on the motor, another $5000 on the bottom. you might be able to put together a tt for $3500ish. you are at $14500 with all other things being equal. i really like my w202, it does have a certain cool factor. someone gave me a thumbs up a few days ago LOL and every mechanic i take it to asks me if i'd like to sell it.

not sure about the cams and heads, ive run across a lot of conflicting information. i'd guess that they arent much different in terms of power anyway since both engines are n/a. pretty sure the m113k cams and heads are a bit different although i've read the heads are the same, so?

i just came across a website (http://en.mercedesclub.cz/engines_family.php?id=6) that states the 113.980 and 113.990 have the same stroke and bore so possibly the blocks are identical but i think you would have to measure to be certain.

DRBC43AMG

Just browsed in the CZ MB club site you mentioned. It has plenty of info and technical data. Nice find

mickey13

yeah drb, but thinking back in my mind i know people on this board who have done some really great builds have said the m113 and m113k are not identical. there was a frankenstein thread where there was indication of some parts off a m113k not bolting up on a m113, so the engines are definitely not identical even though they have the same bore and stroke, but that is not to say that the same sleeves would not work.

btw, are drb your initials or is it Dr. B?

DRBC43AMG

Yes initials. Daniel, Richard Bringolf