Jean Valjean

You can have it in two very different ways.
Bottom line is, both are a blast to drive!

Jean Valjean

Sorry, My computer is not allowing me to upload pics that I took of my 2009 C63 AMG and 1997 Ferrari F355 Berlinetta. These cars had identical Nurburgring times and feel very different when driving them spiritedly. This is what I meant on my initial post.

Sheep

Nice... even we can't see the pics.

Sheep

Jean Valjean

The C63 has some interesting cars around it's time at 8:13 (1 series M, M5, boxter S).

Lap times

[edit]Production vehicles
Length Time Vehicle Driver Date Notes
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 6:48 Radical SR8 LM Michael Vergers 19 August 2009 Radical Sportscars[1][2][3]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 6:55 Radical SR8 Michael Vergers 28 September 2005 Radical Sportscars[4] Timed by Sport Auto [5][6][7]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:11.5 Gumpert Apollo Speed Florian Gruber 13 August 2009 Sport auto (Germany) (Article)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:14.89 Donkervoort D8 RS Michael Düchting 2006 Sport auto (Germany) (Article)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Timo Kluck April 2010 [8] [8] Manufacturer claim.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18.1 Donkervoort D8 RS Michael Düchting 24 October 2004 Sport auto (Germany) (Article)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:19.63 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2012) Jim Mero 9 June 2011 General Motors conducted test, "2012 Corvette ZR1 Takes on Nurburgring". Retrieved 2011-06-09. base specification car with optional R-compound semi-slick tires (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Zero Pressure)[9] and non-stock safety equipment, video confirmed. [10][11][12]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:22.1 Dodge Viper ACR (2009) Tom Coronel 18 August 2008 Chrysler and Motor Trend conducted test.[13]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2010)[14]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:24.22 Nissan GT-R (2011) Toshio Suzuki 1 October 2010 Nissan conducted test.[15] Semi-wet conditions. Video confirmed. Best Motoring (12/2010).[16]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:24.3 Maserati MC12 Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:24.44 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:25.7 Ferrari Enzo Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:26.4 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2009) Jim Mero 27 June 2008 General Motors conducted test,[17] base specification car with stock tires and non-stock safety equipment, video confirmed.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:26.70 Nissan GT-R (2009) Toshio Suzuki 23 April 2009 Nissan Motors conducted test. video confirmed. Best Motoring (08/2009).[18]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:27.82 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport Marc Basseng September 2007 Pagani conducted test,[19][20] semi-wet conditions[citation needed]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:28.71 Porsche Carrera GT Walter Röhrl 2 July 2004 (07/04) [20]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:29.03 Nissan GT-R (2009) Toshio Suzuki 17 April 2008 Nissan Motors conducted test,.[21][22][23] The test used a stock GT-R with stock tires. Video confirmed.
20,600 m (67,600 ft)[citation needed] 7:32.02 Porsche 911 GT2 (2008) Walter Röhrl 2007 Porsche conducted test,[24] R compound tires used.[citation needed]
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:32.92 Ferrari 458 Italia Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:33 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 997MkII Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (04/2010), PCCB [25]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:33.6 Koenigsegg CCX Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:34 Koenigsegg CCR Horst von Saurma 17 October 2005 Sport Auto (03/2006)[26]
7:34 Porsche 911 GT2 September 2008 Porsche conducted test,[27] stock vehicle with stock tires
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:34 Nissan GT-R (2011) Horst von Saurma October 2010 Sport Auto (11/2010),.[28]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:35 Ruf Rt 12 Sport Auto (02/2008)[29]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:38 Lexus LFA Horst von Saurma September 2010 Sport Auto conducted test,[30] Bridgestone Potenza S001 tires used.
7:38 Porsche 911 Turbo September 2008 Porsche conducted test,[27] stock vehicle with stock tires
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:38 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 Horst von Saurma October 2009 Sport Auto conducted test,[31] Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires used.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:38 Nissan GT-R Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (07/2009),[32] Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST run flat tires used.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:38 Ferrari 458 Italia Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2010), Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires used.
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:38.85 Lexus LFA Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
7:39 Porsche 911 Turbo (2010) Porsche Conducted Test [33] Stock vehicle with stock tires
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:39 Ferrari 430 Scuderia Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (07/2008)[34]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:40 Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 Giorgio Sanna Lamborghini Autobild (01/2007)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:40 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Klaus Ludwig AutoBild (07/2004)[citation needed]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:40 Porsche 911 GT3 997MkII Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2009)[35]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:40 Mercedes SLS AMG Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (2010)[36]
7:40.6 Ford GT Markus Draper Octane Magazine[citation needed]
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:40.76 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:41.23 Porsche 911 Turbo S Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:41.50 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 Sascha Bert August 2009 Auto Bild Sportscars (08/2009)
7:42 Porsche 911 GT3 Walter Röhrl Automobil (05/2006) Sport Auto (05/2006)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:42 Lamborghini Murciélago LP670-4 SV Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2010?) [37]
7:42.99 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 Jan Magnussen 2005 General Motors,[38][39] Motor Trend confirmed
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:43.65 Nissan GT-R Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
7:43 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 'Motor' magazine[citation needed]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:44 Audi R8 V10 Sport Auto (09/2009)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:44 Pagani Zonda S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (02/2005)
20,832 m (68,346 ft) 7:44.42 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Sascha Bert November 2010 Auto Bild Sportscars (11/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:46 Porsche 911 GT2 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2001)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:46 Lamborgini Gallardo Superleggera Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (09/2007)[40]
7:46.36 Jaguar XJ220 John Nielsen Evo (07/2000) [41]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:47 Porsche 911 GT3 RS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2004)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:47 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano Horst von Saurma Sport Auto[42]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:47 Lamborghini Murciélago LP640 E-gear Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2007), Sport tires[citation needed]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:48 BMW M3 GTS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto[43]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:49 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 Horst von Saurma 22 June 2007 Sport Auto[44]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:50 BMW M3 CSL Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2003)
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:50 Porsche 911 Carrera S (2009) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/2008),[45] PCCB, PDK, Sport Chrono Plus, Michelin Cup tires
7:52 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 560-4 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2008),[46] apparently problems with tires and ABS
7:54 Mercedes CLK DTM AMG Sport Auto (03/2005)
7:54 Nissan GT-R September 2008 Porsche conducted test,[27] stock vehicle with stock tires
7:54 Porsche 911 Turbo 997 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (05/2007)[47]
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight Robert Nearn 'EVO' magazine (07/2000)
7:55 Ferrari F430 F1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2006)
7:56 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06 Dave Hill crossedflags.com[48]
7:56 Porsche 911 Turbo Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2000)
7:56 Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale f1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (02/2004), Sport tires[citation needed]
7:56.773 Honda NSX-R NA2 Motoharu Kurosawa Best Motoring video "Carrera Invasion",2002
7:59 Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z51 Dave Hill General Motors conducted test[citation needed]
7:59 Cadillac CTS-V (2009) John Heinricy 9 May 2008 General Motors conducted test,[49] video confirmed[50]
7:59 Porsche 911 Carrera S Walter Röhrl 'Wheels' magazine (06/2004), PASM setting "Performance"[citation needed]
7:59 Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 V-Spec Dirk Schoysman 1996 Best Motoring - Time Attack / Autocar magazine 97, stock[citation needed][51]
7:59 Dodge Viper SRT-10 November 2005 Motor Trend[citation needed]
8:01 Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 Motoharu Kurosawa Best Motoring - Video Special DVD Series, Prototype (weight/horsepower different from production car)[citation needed]
8:02 Mercedes CLK 63 AMG - Black Series Autobild (07/2007)
8:02 Aston Martin DBS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto [52]
8:03 Aston Martin V8 Vantage (2005) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2005)
8:03 Porsche 911 GT3 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (08/1999)
8:03 Honda NSX-R (NA1) Motoharu Kurosawa FM3 (02/2011)
8:04 Audi R8 V8 Sport Auto (07/2007)[53]
8:04 Porsche Cayman S Walter Röhrl Sport Auto, 19 inch wheels, ceramic brakes.[citation needed]
8:05 BMW M3 E92 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2007)[54]
8:06 Subaru WRX STi Spec-C Motoharu Kurosawa Best Motoring Video 'NISMO Beast Unleashed'[55]
8:07 BMW Z8 E52 Autobild (06/2001)
8:07.97 Renault Megane RS Trophy Laurent Hurgon June 17th, 2011 www.europeancarnews.com (06/2011), new record for a FWD car.[56]
8:09 Audi RS4 Sport Auto (06/2006)
8:09 BMW M6 E63 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2005), Sport tires, 259 km/h speed limiter.[citation needed]
8:09 Honda NSX-R Sport Auto (08/2002), Sport tires, suspension modification.[citation needed]
8:10 Porsche Boxster S www.sueddeutsche.de/automobil/372/449102/text/11
8:10 Chrysler Viper GTS Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/1997)
8:10 BMW Alpina B6 S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (05/2008)[57]
8:11.16 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo IX Takayuki Kino****a (Best Motoring video 14)
8:12 BMW Z4 M Coupe EVO magazine (Issue 093, page 077)
8:13 BMW M5 E60 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2004)
8:13 Ferrari 355 GTB Sport Auto (10/1994)
8:13 Mercedes-Benz_C63 AMG Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (2/2009)[58]
8:14 BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo Coupé Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2008),[59] including optional LSD and 19 inch wheels.
8:15 BMW 1 Series M Coupe June 2011 Sport Auto , [60]
8:16.90 Renault Mégane RS R26.R Vincent Baylé 23 June 2008 Previous FWD record [61]
8:16 Porsche Cayman S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2009?)[62]
8:17 Porsche Boxster S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2009?)[63]
8:18 Lexus IS-F fastestlaps.com (2007)
8:20 2010 Camaro SS NA Edmunds[64]
8:22 Nissan Skyline GT-R R32 Motoharu Kurosawa Best Motoring Video Special DVD
8:22 Mercedes-Benz C55 AMG (W203) Sport Auto (7/2004)
8:22 BMW M3 E46 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2000)
8:22 BMW M Coupe E36/8 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/1998)
8:22.85 Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC (2007) Motor Trend (10/2007)
8:24 Cosworth Type 25 STI spec C (2010) Mark Chandler Sport Auto (2010), Sport tires
8:25 Lotus Exige S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (06/2008)[65]
8:25 Jaguar XKR Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:25 Audi RS4 Sean Moore
8:25 Porsche Cayman S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:24 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/1999), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:25 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VII Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2002), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:26 Audi S5 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2008)[66]
8:26 BMW 335i E92 Coupe Horst von Saurma Sport Auto
8:26 Nissan 350Z Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2003)
8:26 Ford Focus RS Horst von Saurma Ford conducted test (08/2009)
8:28 Porsche 911 Carrera (993) Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (07/1997)
8:29 Audi TTS Coupé Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (10/2008)[67]
8:30 Alfa Romeo Giulietta QV al Volante.it (04/2011)[68]
8:32 Porsche Boxster S Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/1999)
8:35.00 Ford Focus ST Patrick Bernhard 2005
8:35 Opel Astra OPC 2.0T (240PS) Manuel Reuter Opel, 05
19,100 m (62,700 ft) 8:36 Volkswagen Golf Mk5 VW R32 MKV DSG RRRRpower 4 October 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSnMcKdsfjg
8:38 Honda NSX Sport Auto, (08/1997)
8:39 Honda S2000 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (01/2000)
8:39 Mazda MAZDASPEED3 (Mazda3 MPS) Mark Ticehurst 2007 Mazda News (06/2007),[69] Mazda Racing Driver, 10th lap.[70]
8:40 Chevrolet Corvette C5 Sport Auto (07/1997), automatic transmission
8:42 Lotus Exige Mk1 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2000), Sport tires[citation needed]
8:43.3 SEAT León Cupra R Mk1 Øistein Helland 7 August 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGwNecMZrtQ
8:43.52 Chevrolet HHR SS
8:47 Volkswagen Scirocco 2.0 TSI Bernt Bråten Andersen 15 November 2009 Minimalt.no
8:47 Honda Civic Type-R Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (11/2001)
8:47.99 Opel Corsa OPC Manuel Reuter Opel, '07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9AgTHx1dzI
8:51 Ford Focus ST Sport Auto (09/2005)
8:52 Mini Cooper S Oscar G. Matos Open Trials (05/2006)
8:53 Volkswagen Golf GTI DSG MK5 Sport Auto (11/2005)
8:54 Vauxhall Corsa VXR Sport Auto (04/2008)
8:54.38 Opel Zafira OPC Manuel Reuter
8:55 2010 Range Rover Sport Supercharged Paul Wijgaertz 2009 Dynamic Adaptive Test - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SYyx...eature=related
9:02 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Turbo John Heinricy October 2007 Wet Track "2008 Turbocharged Chevy Cobalt SS (full version)". Retrieved 2009-03-26.
9:05 Ford Focus RS Sport Auto (09/2005)
9:09 Volkswagen Lupo GTI Daniel Schwerfeld 29 September 2002 "Vw Lupo Gti @ Nürburgring". Retrieved 2009-08-26.
22,800 m (74,800 ft) 16:01 Trabant P50 Factory team of VEB Sachsenring April 1960 Production car with 20 bhp during the final stage of the international Hanseat-Rallye. from Lang: Rallye-Sport mit dem Trabant. Kraftfahrzeugtechnik; August 1961; p. 340; VEB Verlag Technik Berlin, Germany

Sheep

?? Where is the number for our C63? The C55 and M3 are on it but not the C63?

Sheep

Jean Valjean

8:13 for the C63.

Sheep

Never mind, I must be blind. Thanks.

Sheep

Jakpro1

Benz's can't handle, my a$S!!!

So sick of hearing that.

CZ55

I'm going to the ring today for the M Fest. Is anybody going to be there?

IAA-C63

Interesting data. Here are the observations which jump out for me:

- I've never heard of the Radical SR8, but it's clearly radically fast.

- Tuned-up variants of the 911 are consistently fast. Makes me lean more towards adding a 911 to the stable.

- The GT-R and Corvette are supercar fast, and remain bargains for their performance.

- The SLS is clearly a supercar too. It didn't feel that fast when I drove it on the track, but then I don't have the ability to bring out its potential.

- The CTS-V beat our dear C63, and even the CLK63 BS. Respect.

- At 8:05, the current M3 is faster than the C63, but not by much. Considering that it's less powerful than the C63, I think we can admit that the M3 handles better.

- The Boxster and Cayman aren't as fast as I would have expected. They obviously handle well, so it must be due to lack of power.

- I'm a little surprised that the C63 beat the 1M.

- The 335i did pretty well for a fairly ordinary and moderately priced car.

Overall, I'd say the C63 did well considering that it's a sedan with a real back seat, real trunk, decent luxury features, considerable weight, somewhat narrow track, and narrow tires. I continue to love driving it everday.

chief63

I say it did well for a stock C63. Now I'm wondering if my track monster could run 8:00 or less... only one way to find out!

Das Geld 2

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y all times.
CTS-V didn't beat anything.
C63 is 300 pounds heavier all those milliseconds add up.

Das Geld 2

On Top of that look into the tires mercedes used

SMP

Horst von Saurma's lap times at the 'Ring are an indication what a specific car can do, but are not the best times that can be wrung out of the car. He did a 7min.32sec. in the Carrera GT. Walther Roehrl (a true genius behind the wheel) was 4 sec. faster with the same car. Bernd Schneider's time with the CLK63 BS was 7min.45sec., compared to Autobilds 8min.02sec.

IAA-C63

Thanks for the clarification. I assumed, incorrectly, that all of these times were based on pro drivers squeezing everything out of each car. I guess all of my observations are now thrown into question.

PC Valkyrie

It depends what you are trying to compare. The advantage of looking ONLY at the Sport Auto Supertests is that they use the SAME driver each and every time they test a car. This takes driver skill out of the equation when comparing a different cars' laptimes around a track. For those of us who actually tracks their cars, we know that driver skill/courage is probably one of the most important factors when measuring laptimes around a track. I have passed many 911's and M3's during track days. Does it mean my C55 or 135i is a "better track car"?......of course not.....it was likely the 911 drivers didn't/couldn't drive their 911's to their full potential.

As such, I ONLY LOOK at Sport Auto's Nurburgring laptimes when I want to compare different cars' abilities on the Ring, because the same driver is used every time. It's still not perfect, as cars are tested on different days, meaning that track conditions can be different between tests. However, I still think it is way better than comparing laptimes from the factory using their test own drivers. You never really know how the car was setup for these factory "tests".

The other factor is tires. Some tests used R-compound tires, while other tests can use street tires. The most relevant tests for the C-AMG crowd from Sport Auto are the following from slowest to fastest. You can see how cars are just getting faster with each generation:

MB C43 AMG: 8.51 min
Audi B5 S4: 8.42 min
MB C32 AMG: 8.37 min
BMW E36 M3: 8.35 min
Audi B6 S4 Avant: 8.29 min
Audi S5: 8.26 min
BMW 335i: 8.26 min
BMW E46 M3: 8.22 min
MB C55 AMG: 8.22 min
Lexus IS-F: 8.18 min
BMW 1M: 8.15 min
MB C63 AMG: 8.13 min
Audi B7 RS4: 8.09 min (R-compound)
BMW E92 M3: 8.05 min (R-compound)
MB CLK63 AMG Black Series: 8.05 min (R-compound)

SMP

Those sneaky motherf*ckers at the factory with their "set ups" and factory drivers ....... Right, but putting R compound tires on an E92 M3 is of course no big deal

Das Geld 2

BS never ran 8:05

it ran 7 45
and 7 54

trust me.

the SL55 runs 8:06

IAA-C63

I agree with all of your points.

In fact, I would go further and say that a standard three pro drivers should drive a stock car on a dry track, each try several runs to get their best time, and then average those best times.

And maybe a lot of testing should be done to identify a fastest tire for a given track, and then that tire should be used for all cars. The catch is that the fastest tire may vary among cars due to tire/car interactions.

Another consideration is that the ranking of cars could differ from one track to another, due to different balance of straights and curves, and maybe other factors too.

Complex stuff!

Moedy

The C55's time is really impressive. I didnt think it would tie with an M3

PC Valkyrie

Having R-compound tires IS A BIG DEAL if you want to compare laptimes. That's why Sport Auto clearly indicates which cars were tested with R-compound tires, so you can better make judgements about each car's laptime. Like any other magazine, Sport Auto simply tests the cars that each company provides to them.

02Drunkenup

I want to see what the sedan M3 does and what the C63 laptime is on R-Compound tires. I think its safe to say the margin would be pretty close.

CELLryuu

wow, 7:18 for a porsche 911 gt2 rs.

i was looking at getting one of those the other day. havent inquired about them officially, but i didnt know they were that fast

Klinh

Are you kidding me? 8 second different, is like day and night, specially win or lose usually seperated by tenths of a second. It like two totally different class if you look at the times. There's no more excuses for the C63 anymore specially driven by the same driver and the same track. Btw, the M3 light/track version is alot faster then the standard M3.

8:05 BMW M3 E92 Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (12/2007)[54]
8:13 Mercedes-Benz_C63 AMG Horst von Saurma Sport Auto (2/2009)[58]

SMP

Really? ..... the point is: since when does an M3 come with R compound tires from the factory, with exception to the E46 CSL and the M3 GTS? ..... It's just funny how you don't believe in factory times with their drivers and setup, but when Horst von Saurma changes the setup to R compound tires that's alright