Zondar

Sure, the C63 / M3 / RS4 would be sensible cars to compare.

I've driven an M3 - very nice handling for a "big" coupe, but it felt gutless down low (how quickly one is spoiled!), and quite frankly I'm a little put off by the image that BMW's project (please, not to start a fight, it's just how I feel). The RS4 and RS5 are not available in the U.S. at this time. OK, I did have a minor fling with an S5; manual transmission - thanks - and it's not bad at all, but it seems to have fallen off my radar screen.

But the C63 vs. 911 vs. R8? These are three enormously different cars. One can't seriously cross-shop them, can one? Still, that's where I am.

I've owned a 911 in the past, and it's the all-time sports-car bench-mark for a reason. But configure one nicely (let's start with the GTS, shall we?) and you are looking at maybe $125k out the door in a rapacious state such as California. It's the lightest of the three by a considerable amount, with very sharp handling and throttle response, brakes, etc., and it's very high quality throughout. Although I'd choose the manual, the PDK transmission is truly mind-bending. OK, maybe one can settle for the 911S. Sports buckets, limited slip, some other upgrades and we're looking at $105k.

Then the R8... the "budget supercar." Is it past its prime already? No, I'd take one, thank you very much! What a phenomenal high-revving engine it has (V8). Still not too much torque (again, after driving a C63, everything seems limp), but what a song! The V10 is less mellifluous, but packs awesome power and will be the fastest of the three. It's lighter than a C63, and is more track-worthy. "Hand made," too. But you had better add the absurdly-priced extended leather package, Alcantara roof, etc., etc., or the interior feels cheaper than the cheapest base Audi. And there are things about this car that are a bit off, like the ridiculously heavy and wide seats. Anyway, a modestly-equipped V8 version will set you back $140k out the door, and V10's climb to 180k. Finally, could you really go to Trader Joe's, etc., in it every day without sweating that the wide aluminum body would be dinged?

Clearly, the C63 is the bargain of the bunch. It has the most torque; even more than the V10 R8. It's the most practical by far, with a real back seat and a real trunk. Nicely equipped, but without the expensive (and desirable) P31 package, it's under 80k out the door. Is it a sports car? A little less so. It's heavy, its rear tires are too narrow, it just can't have quite the same poise on the track. But that engine... that sound... wow!

Order placed.

Cheers.

IAA-C63

I like crazy comparisons, and yours is a good one.

Though I haven't driven the R8, I've driven the M3, 911, S5, and a bunch of other cars, and I generally agree with your thoughts.

After driving the C63, nearly all other cars seem so weak that I wonder if something's wrong with them. As far as being a sports car, I'm not sure that any sedan can be a pure sports car (high CG, etc.), but I think the C63 does get close enough to make most enthusiasts smile, and I feel quite comfortable and in control when driving it fast.

I've had my C63 for three months now, having put almost 5K miles on it already, and my appreciation for the car only continues to increase. I agree that it's a bargain, and I wonder if MB is even making any money on it (maybe subsidized to promote the AMG brand?).

Congratulations on your purchase!

Zondar

In the R8's, I've driven a new automatic V8 Spyder, an immaculate used auto V10 coupe, and a trashed manual V8 coupe. I should have bought the Spyder. I should have bought the V10. They really are awesome cars.

The Spyder in particular was wonderful. The lines are gorgeous, and with the top down, the sound of that engine is so sweet! If only it had been a manual.

The V-10 was your proverbial iron fist in a velvet glove. With four-wheel grip, it makes 4 second launches laughably easy. Still, I think I would have preferred that silky V8 in a manual.

The "trashed" manual was an anomaly. Some modifications were made in bad taste, and I can only guess that it had been tracked hard, or else imported from Brooklyn (kidding).

The problem with R8's is that people paid too much for them new some years ago. The used market is still nutty, with 3 year old used examples asking for just slightly less than new.

Also, I think the new market is showing signs of cracking. Instead of demanding premiums, dealers are struggling to hold the line at list. To keep prices propped up, I half expect the V8's to be gone soon, with the remaining models moving up-market via various special editions.

_AMG_

Nice review!

Show pics of the Zonda R or Im calling BS.

Zondar

I've driven and owned my share of exotic cars, but as I'm not the wastrel heir to an oil fortune, alas the Zonda is only in my dreams. Peace.

HuangYiChao

The M3 is a great car but the thing about the torque is true. You really dont get any punch until after 4.5k rpm, after 4.5k rpm the car just keeps pulling to redline and you dont feel like you are going faster because the torque just stays flat. Its a horrible car to drive daily with manual if you live in a place with traffic.

IAA-C63

Have you driven it with DCT? If so, do you think that's much better?

HuangYiChao

IMO it is because my 6MT really sucks... but I think thats just my car. I've only driven it slowly and floored it a few times in my friends M3 with DCT and all I can say is the shifts are ridiculously fast. They are pretty much instant, however, driving slow this car just feels normal i guess you would call it. If you keep the car in S5 and do normal driving it keeps the RPM high so your good and if you need to go any faster it shifts real fast down a few gears.

Zondar

The opinions about the M3 are interesting. Personally, I felt the automatic on the M3 was quite sluggish. Perhaps it was not in the right mode.

By far the fastest, most responsive transmission I've ever driven was Porsche's PDK in a 911 GTS (a dual-clutch transmission). I normally prefer manuals just because they are more engaging, but that transmission was lightning. One drive is a revelation: manuals really are history. It's not even close - there's no way anyone can shift faster or better by hand. Even just leave it in automatic, in sport mode, and it was simply perfect - it always knew just what gear to be in and never flubbed it. I haven't driven a modern automatic Ferrari yet (e.g., 458), but it's hard to imagine them being even better.

The obscenely expensive (>$9k) automatic in the R8 was clumsy and brutish by comparison. This is an "automatic manual" - a normal, single-clutch manual transmission that is shifted automatically. Accelerate hard, and this transmission jolts you and your passenger like shotgun blasts. Kind of fun initially, but I think that would get tiring, especially for a passenger who can't anticipate the shifts as well. On the other hand, the throttle blips on downshifting in the convertible were sonic heaven. I could live with it, but it has to be driven in manual mode.

The normal, torque-converter auto in the C63 is good as far as those go, but I'm hopeful that the MCT in the '12's is an improvement, and that it retains it's "true" manual selection (no forced automatic shifts).

IAA-C63

I've experienced the PDK in several Porsches and I agree that its great. In a performance car, the super fast shifting and smartness in gear selection really does make a difference.

I recently drove an M6 convertible with their similar SMG transmission and it was truly awful. I don't know how anyone could bear to live with it. From what I've read, the M3 used to have the SMG transmission also and there were similar complaints. Using the SMG in manual mode helps, but it's still not anywhere near as good as a double-clutch.

Sincity

Sebringsilver went from a C63 to a R8 (V8).

mzporto

I had na E46 M3 with SMG. I believe the SMG only makes sense in a high-rev engine. I actually liked it in the M3, because if you knew when to shift, you would always keep rpm above 3,500. Also, I could just put my foot deep down and then change gears, so I’d know exactly when the car would launch (ok, you can have almost the same effect using the paddle shifts of the C, but it is a little different).

The thing is the SMG is not very didactic. You have to learn to use it. Very few people that used it once or twice will like it, because you have to know the behavior of the car to use it properly. I liked it more than I like the automatic transmission of the C. But that’s personal opinion.

Never drove the PDK Porsche, only a manual. Everyone tells me it is a blast.

SebringSilver

With zero regrets, I might add.

Sheep

Do you think that the V8 version is under power compare to the V10 version as some might say?

Sheep

SebringSilver

Actually, no. It's the V10 that's underpowered, and deliberately so. The 5.2 motor should be putting out the same power as the LP560 but instead, the powers that be decided to hobble it so that it wouldn't outperform more expensive stablemates, just like MB did with the C63. Maybe that's a good thing as it means there's enough left on the table for tuning companies to play with.

As for the V8, I think it's nigh on perfection. At 4.2 liters and 420 bhp, it's pretty much maxed out, but it revs so fast and so smooth, you'd think the R-tronic gearbox MUST be the way to go, cause surely no human being could shift fast enough to take advantage of that engine's abilities. But the R-tronic really does take getting used to, and when you do, you realize the genius behind it, as it emulates a manual transmission better than any dual-clutch gearbox does, while still shifting faster than people like me ever could.

All in all, I couldn't recommend the car more highly, for anyone whose expectations of a car go beyond straight line speed and things like overall speed, handling, ride, build quality, and ergonomics are important. Just be warned though, even though the car's been around for almost 4 years, it still garners more looks than anything this side of a Reventon or a Bugatti.

You really have to experience it for yourself, of course, but if you can make the financial side of the equation work and you don't need the back seats, the R8 is worth serious consideration for people who want a true sports car.

IAA-C63

One of the best endorsements for a car I've ever read.

201mph

Similar dilemma... I have 35k on my '09 C63 and as it chews through its third set of tires, I'm starting to look for a replacement.

My last 911 was a 996TT, and it was a fabulous car. But when I climbed in a new 997TTs, I found the interior little changed from my 2001. That, plus the choppy ride due to the short wheelbase, makes me want to wait for the next "new" 911... or maybe back up to a Boxster S.

M3? I had an E46 M3 with SMG; between the balky shifting and the horrid ride from the run-flats, I've sworn off Beemers for awhile.

The R8 is exciting, still looks "new" as you rarely see one, yet the dealers still want near original MSRP for lightly used ones. No luggage space to speak of. V10 seems wasteful for the amount of highway miles I drive... I'd consider the V8 though.
I'm encouraged by Sebring Silver's comments.

M-B... wishing they had put the turbo 5.5 in the '12 C63. While I've averaged over 20mpg for 35k in mine, I'd like the improved efficiency of the new AMG V8. Maybe that porky new CLS63, then?

Think I'll go test-drive an R8.
Mike

Zondar

201mph: The fully-revised 911's (991) should be getting close to its formal unveiling. It has a longer wheelbase and it's slightly wider too, so a lot of that choppiness should be gone. There is some fairly solid data and some excellent photos of the interior out there, though the final exterior appearance (headlights, etc.) are still masked.

The R8 is definitely worth a test drive. In the U.S., V-8's are rarely stocked by dealers, but hunt down a V-8 Spyder - the sound is spine-tingling! The coupe sounds more subdued but is lighter and presumably stiffer. The V8 does not have the punch of a C63; it's more about traditional sports-car balance and finesse. In my dreams, they would perfect that outlook by producing a RWD coupe with manual rack-and-pinion steering and light-weight buckets.

201mph

I'm hearing the 991 is almost a year away from the first US deliveries. It may well be the right car, but its too far off.

Local dealer has 2 V10 R8 spyders, insanely priced (MSRP>$180k). Going to go drive an R8 V8 coupe at the Porsche dealer tomorrow.

Zondar

Please tell us your opinion.

AZBENZ-CTSV

Those are some crazy comparisons on very different vehicles.
An interesting comparison would be C63 new vs used S65 same price.
Both have 4 doors but i'd lean used S65 faster-great looking- more torque
and still the Belle of the ball.

201mph

To me, the used R8 was a bit of a disappointment, beginning with the wide sills that make getting in and out more of a chore than necessary. The large blind spots would probably shrink with more time in the car. The performance is great, but much of the ergonomics and switchgear are common to all recent Audis... kinda reminded me some of the Fiat switches in any 80's Ferrari (except these wroked every time).
I think the R8 spider would be a better choice, but that's beyond the budget for this project right now.

The dealer also had a 2011 911S coupe w/PDK, highly optioned, for the same price, and its a much more useful everyday two seater...

but at the end of the day, I drove home in my C63, and I think I'll keep it awhile longer.

Zondar

201: Sometimes one has to go through these little exercises to settle ones' mind.

I agree that the R8 needs a more bespoke interior. Did it have the extended leather? That makes a big difference, and it's just about necessary in this car.

Did you find that the front wheels bind in slower, tighter corners? I did not feel that all wheel drive was necessary or desirable in this car (except maybe for the V10, which takes good advantage of the extra grip).

As you surmised, the Spyder is quite different. Any driver of a C63 knows that its sound is a big part of the experience. Besides the R8 convertible's lines, which I think are superb (with the top down, at least), the aural experience is superior to that of the coupe.

The R8 was an instant classic, but I wonder if it's already slightly past its prime. Still, it's an amazing car and I'd take one; yes indeed!

Enjoy your C63.

201mph

Good observations. Without the extended leather, the R8's hard interior plastics scream "low budget". There is a big visual difference.
The carbon fiber bits on the dash look like peel and stick parts, while the ones on the doors are better integrated.

When the R8 came out, I first saw it by itself on the turntable in the Park Avenue Audi showroom in NYC and it looked fabulous.

When I went to a dealer, their R8 was parked between a Vantage and a DB9, and it looked pretty homely in their company.

Last month, a supercharged R8 coupe at Cars & Coffee in Irvine, CA, and a new R8 Spider displayed at an event in Orange County put me on the trail of an R8 again.

I accept the tradeoffs of all-wheel drive for the benefits it offers in inclement weather, so no, that was not a bother.

But Saturday, the R8 shared a showroom with a GT3, a Vantage S, DB9, Gallardo, 997 turbo and a Bentley, with a 456 and 599GTB nearby. Somehow, the R8 looked like the short, pudgy, unattractive sister, who you wouldnt look at twice except she had a great behind.

Fly by night

The S65 v12 cars are sweet. They do cost a pretty penny to own out of warranty.