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C63 Head Bolts and Engine Repair
02-01-2013, 02:23 PM
#101
MBWorld Fanatic!
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...8IGc6lF3EudDjQ
Replacing with ARP Studs ONE AT A TIME.
This has been going on for a long time. Im surprised a master engine builder like yourself isn't aware of it...
Replacing with ARP Studs ONE AT A TIME.
This has been going on for a long time. Im surprised a master engine builder like yourself isn't aware of it...
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
02-01-2013, 03:58 PM
#103
It has been done on the M156 before according to a solid source.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
02-03-2013, 12:31 PM
#105
Since you have had the engine out.. without removing the entire front end/bumper, if I just remove the upper grill, would I have access to the belts (mines due to replacement soon, would rather do it myself, but the space is really tight in there if you don't remove everything 
)
)Find the tensioner bolt and you will figure it out.
Here is a pic to give you a idea.
02-11-2013, 04:38 PM
#107
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This is seriously starting to give me cold sweats and nightmares....
I think I may pursue this headbolt replacement regardless of having any issues...
I think I may pursue this headbolt replacement regardless of having any issues...
02-11-2013, 04:47 PM
#108
I'll be switch my head bolts to studs when I throw the blower on and will document it for those who are interested.
We are doing them one at a time with the heads on.
We are doing them one at a time with the heads on.
02-11-2013, 06:10 PM
#109
02-12-2013, 01:51 AM
#110
Probably throw in SLS tappets too while I am in there. My friend is printing off the instructions from the star system tomorrow. 280 bucks for the benz tools to hold the adjusters in place on the cams.
02-12-2013, 09:28 AM
#111
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Where are you located.. I might be interested in helping 
That way.. if all works out, then I can work on my car.. if not.. well I'm an ******* and your engine is dead not mine
That way.. if all works out, then I can work on my car.. if not.. well I'm an ******* and your engine is dead not mine
03-02-2013, 04:59 PM
#112
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OK guys , I have read threads on the head bolt issue. It appears that the apparent indifferece shown by most MB dealers is that they are mainstream whose traditional customers know little or nothing about cars and appear regularly with handfuls of money while buying pins and sweaters in the customer lounge. I do the slow burn every time I realize one cannot buy paper workshop manuals and the threat filled owners manual will not even show all jacking points. MB is confused in its AMG affiliation.
Re the bolt. The pictue of the broken one looks really grainy. Anyone know how the factory torques? Do they "torque to yield,"and could there have been assembly errors?
Is it possible that one guy repeated the mistake and others are ok? MB should have build paper or archive date by SN. Although the female flanges look a little anemic ,could we all be jumping to conclusions? Where's the root cause data?
Re the bolt. The pictue of the broken one looks really grainy. Anyone know how the factory torques? Do they "torque to yield,"and could there have been assembly errors?
Is it possible that one guy repeated the mistake and others are ok? MB should have build paper or archive date by SN. Although the female flanges look a little anemic ,could we all be jumping to conclusions? Where's the root cause data?
03-02-2013, 05:22 PM
#113
The head bolts are torque to yield.
They are torqued by computer/machine, so I doubt there was a mistake.
If you look at the pics of the old bolts, they are weak, its no wonder some are breaking. There isn't enough material around the head of the bolt.
They are torqued by computer/machine, so I doubt there was a mistake.
If you look at the pics of the old bolts, they are weak, its no wonder some are breaking. There isn't enough material around the head of the bolt.
03-02-2013, 05:25 PM
#114
Canada
Google ARP studs for diesel engines.
Diesel guys have been replacing head bolts one at a time for years with no problems. There is instructions on how to do it online if you look.
Basically, you replace 1 at a time, torque to stock specs. Once all studs are in, you torque to ARP specs.
Im looking for clearance issues towards the back of the engine.. The heat shielding might be in the way.. I am not sure yet.. will know more once we start tearing it apart..
03-02-2013, 05:32 PM
#115
MBWorld Fanatic!
OK guys , I have read threads on the head bolt issue. It appears that the apparent indifferece shown by most MB dealers is that they are mainstream whose traditional customers know little or nothing about cars and appear regularly with handfuls of money while buying pins and sweaters in the customer lounge. I do the slow burn every time I realize one cannot buy paper workshop manuals and the threat filled owners manual will not even show all jacking points. MB is confused in its AMG affiliation.
Re the bolt. The pictue of the broken one looks really grainy. Anyone know how the factory torques? Do they "torque to yield,"and could there have been assembly errors?
Is it possible that one guy repeated the mistake and others are ok? MB should have build paper or archive date by SN. Although the female flanges look a little anemic ,could we all be jumping to conclusions? Where's the root cause data?
Re the bolt. The pictue of the broken one looks really grainy. Anyone know how the factory torques? Do they "torque to yield,"and could there have been assembly errors?
Is it possible that one guy repeated the mistake and others are ok? MB should have build paper or archive date by SN. Although the female flanges look a little anemic ,could we all be jumping to conclusions? Where's the root cause data?
MBZ will not retrofit the new head bolts or lifters until a problem (head gasket leak, premature cam wear) has occured. They have no intention on doing a recall. There have been cases were MBZ covered part of the cost for the repair if you're out of warranty. The problem does not seem to related to milage as I've hear of engine developing this problem with very low milage.
03-02-2013, 10:49 PM
#116
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2009 C63, 2000 ML 430, 1994 Del Sol Vtec
Canada
Google ARP studs for diesel engines.
Diesel guys have been replacing head bolts one at a time for years with no problems. There is instructions on how to do it online if you look.
Basically, you replace 1 at a time, torque to stock specs. Once all studs are in, you torque to ARP specs.
Im looking for clearance issues towards the back of the engine.. The heat shielding might be in the way.. I am not sure yet.. will know more once we start tearing it apart..
Google ARP studs for diesel engines.
Diesel guys have been replacing head bolts one at a time for years with no problems. There is instructions on how to do it online if you look.
Basically, you replace 1 at a time, torque to stock specs. Once all studs are in, you torque to ARP specs.
Im looking for clearance issues towards the back of the engine.. The heat shielding might be in the way.. I am not sure yet.. will know more once we start tearing it apart..
03-02-2013, 11:53 PM
#117
It has been done on the M156 before according to a solid source.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
EDIT: answered above, yes they run through the water jacket.
How many and which ones run through it is the question?
Last edited by Merc63; 03-02-2013 at 11:58 PM.
03-03-2013, 08:56 AM
#118
Super Member
This is the lawsuit:
For those of you that have not heard by now, Mercedes-Benz is facing a class action lawsuit for alleged defects in the M156 V8 engine installed in numerous AMG Mercedes vehicles. You can read the class action complaint filed in New Jersey here.
According to the lawsuit, the class action may affect all current and former owners and lessees of 2006-2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, E63 AMG, S63 AMG, CL63 AMG, CLS63 AMG, ML63 AMG, CLK63 AMG, R63 AMG, and SL63 AMG models equipped with AMG M156 6.2 liter V8 engines.
The class action lawsuit alleges the V8 engines in several AMG vehicles have underlying problems that make them prone to premature wear, causing major engine damage and sometimes total engine failure.
Los Angeles resident Cedric Chan alleges in the Mercedes-Benz AMG class action lawsuit that after obtaining his AMG he experienced problems with loud ticking noises under the hood and a drop in oil pressure. The lawsuit suggests the ticking and drop in oil pressure was the beginning of the AMG engine’s destruction. The apparent problem according to the lawsuit is that the defective AMG engines are manufactured using soft camshaft metal that is improperly heat treated and/or improperly offset, making the camshaft prone to premature wear. It appears Mercedes-Benz was somewhat aware of the defect since at least 2007 when a service bulletin was released. Service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b involved parts relating to the camshafts, including the camshaft adjusters and authorized replacement for at least some adjusters; subsequent revisions to the service bulletins include P-B 05.20/20a and T-B 05.20/21a.
Due to the premature wear of the camshafts, the camshafts, valve lifters, camshaft adjusters, valve tappets, gaskets and bushings all have to be replaced.”The cost of replacement is thousands of dollars, which was passed on to Plaintiff, because Defendants did not issue a recall for the defect, even though they knew it to exist.’”
For those of you that have not heard by now, Mercedes-Benz is facing a class action lawsuit for alleged defects in the M156 V8 engine installed in numerous AMG Mercedes vehicles. You can read the class action complaint filed in New Jersey here.
According to the lawsuit, the class action may affect all current and former owners and lessees of 2006-2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, E63 AMG, S63 AMG, CL63 AMG, CLS63 AMG, ML63 AMG, CLK63 AMG, R63 AMG, and SL63 AMG models equipped with AMG M156 6.2 liter V8 engines.
The class action lawsuit alleges the V8 engines in several AMG vehicles have underlying problems that make them prone to premature wear, causing major engine damage and sometimes total engine failure.
Los Angeles resident Cedric Chan alleges in the Mercedes-Benz AMG class action lawsuit that after obtaining his AMG he experienced problems with loud ticking noises under the hood and a drop in oil pressure. The lawsuit suggests the ticking and drop in oil pressure was the beginning of the AMG engine’s destruction. The apparent problem according to the lawsuit is that the defective AMG engines are manufactured using soft camshaft metal that is improperly heat treated and/or improperly offset, making the camshaft prone to premature wear. It appears Mercedes-Benz was somewhat aware of the defect since at least 2007 when a service bulletin was released. Service bulletin S-B 05.20/20b involved parts relating to the camshafts, including the camshaft adjusters and authorized replacement for at least some adjusters; subsequent revisions to the service bulletins include P-B 05.20/20a and T-B 05.20/21a.
Due to the premature wear of the camshafts, the camshafts, valve lifters, camshaft adjusters, valve tappets, gaskets and bushings all have to be replaced.”The cost of replacement is thousands of dollars, which was passed on to Plaintiff, because Defendants did not issue a recall for the defect, even though they knew it to exist.’”
03-03-2013, 12:00 PM
#119
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How do we know robots applied the headbolt torque?
What is the tricky part about headbolts through water jackets. Isn't it using the proper sealant/lubricant?
Is there a star-based instruction for head bolt torque, sealant?
Why is the camchain tension while doing the headbolts only so important?
Isn't it like other twincam (admittedly my experience is with 1558 cc Lotus twincams years ago-outdated?)where timing on the cam sprockets,crank is the basic? It is achievable, right?
I'm in with the improved MB headbolts as preventive measure. I'm looking for an oil analysis source meanwhile. No problems @ 22K in our C63, but that's not comforting .
Thanks for the every improving nitty gritty, guys.
What is the tricky part about headbolts through water jackets. Isn't it using the proper sealant/lubricant?
Is there a star-based instruction for head bolt torque, sealant?
Why is the camchain tension while doing the headbolts only so important?
Isn't it like other twincam (admittedly my experience is with 1558 cc Lotus twincams years ago-outdated?)where timing on the cam sprockets,crank is the basic? It is achievable, right?
I'm in with the improved MB headbolts as preventive measure. I'm looking for an oil analysis source meanwhile. No problems @ 22K in our C63, but that's not comforting .
Thanks for the every improving nitty gritty, guys.
03-03-2013, 11:21 PM
#120
How do we know robots applied the headbolt torque?
Video of the M156 being built on youtube. Plus a bit of common sense
What is the tricky part about headbolts through water jackets. Isn't it using the proper sealant/lubricant?
Sealant is necessary yes.
Is there a star-based instruction for head bolt torque, sealant?
Loctite makes a product for thread sealants. Star would have torque specs for stock head bolts.
Why is the camchain tension while doing the headbolts only so important?
Isn't it like other twincam (admittedly my experience is with 1558 cc Lotus twincams years ago-outdated?)where timing on the cam sprockets,crank is the basic? It is achievable, right?
The chain can hang there as long as it doesn't come off the sprocket and throw off timing. The main thing is locking the cam adjusters in place.
I'm in with the improved MB headbolts as preventive measure. I'm looking for an oil analysis source meanwhile. No problems @ 22K in our C63, but that's not comforting .
Thanks for the every improving nitty gritty, guys.
Video of the M156 being built on youtube. Plus a bit of common sense
What is the tricky part about headbolts through water jackets. Isn't it using the proper sealant/lubricant?
Sealant is necessary yes.
Is there a star-based instruction for head bolt torque, sealant?
Loctite makes a product for thread sealants. Star would have torque specs for stock head bolts.
Why is the camchain tension while doing the headbolts only so important?
Isn't it like other twincam (admittedly my experience is with 1558 cc Lotus twincams years ago-outdated?)where timing on the cam sprockets,crank is the basic? It is achievable, right?
The chain can hang there as long as it doesn't come off the sprocket and throw off timing. The main thing is locking the cam adjusters in place.
I'm in with the improved MB headbolts as preventive measure. I'm looking for an oil analysis source meanwhile. No problems @ 22K in our C63, but that's not comforting .
Thanks for the every improving nitty gritty, guys.
03-04-2013, 11:24 AM
#121
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Merc, Thanks again for answering my questions...
Re robot... so the fancy signature / name label on the engine is a dude who watches the pre- set digital ratchets torque the headbolts. Up close and personal!
Re chain on crank sprocket. If the engine is set at TDC or other ref and is not moved one can pull up to engage sprocket teeth and cam sprockets are index-marked?
Has anyone stressed the "bad" headbolts and observed failure , or is this seen as fatique over time... repeated normal head movement which is not contained by the bad headbolts. Not to beat it to death , but so-called forensics can sometime expose surprising facts. thanks
Re robot... so the fancy signature / name label on the engine is a dude who watches the pre- set digital ratchets torque the headbolts. Up close and personal!
Re chain on crank sprocket. If the engine is set at TDC or other ref and is not moved one can pull up to engage sprocket teeth and cam sprockets are index-marked?
Has anyone stressed the "bad" headbolts and observed failure , or is this seen as fatique over time... repeated normal head movement which is not contained by the bad headbolts. Not to beat it to death , but so-called forensics can sometime expose surprising facts. thanks
03-04-2013, 11:45 AM
#122
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It has been done on the M156 before according to a solid source.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
BUT, it's a bit of a gamble. You need to drain the coolant out completely and let the oil drain so you don't get any fluids between the gasket and the deck surface. You need to clean the area where the bolt will make contact with the head as well. If there is oil there it won't seal properly allowing coolant to run into the engine.
Jasonoff. Re cleaning/head bolt contact... Are you talking about the flanged portion of the nut making contact with the head surface, which is expected to only be wiped dry (?normally?) or perhaps lubricated, and which demands some of the specified torque. This area plays no role in sealing, right?
Or are you referring to sealant farther down the shank which might not stick without cleaning it first? Yes, I am compiling a "cookbook" of this thread wisdom in case I go in. Thanks
03-04-2013, 01:06 PM
#124
MBWorld Fanatic!
03-05-2013, 12:08 AM
#125
