Vic55

When I got the C63 BS back in July I was amazed not only by its looks, power, and sound but also by its amazing throttle. This is definitely the best of the 7 AMG's I've owned and most of you know that from my prior posts.

Ive dyno'd the car stock at EAS in Orange County and recently spoke with Jeremy of OE Tuning and we decided that it would be nice to dyno the C63 BS on a DynoDynamics and do an instant tune and re dyno the car. Today was that day. Jeremy and OE have been tuning my cars since 2004 including all of my AMG's, BMW's, Porsches, and soon my new TT BMW's.

The C63 Black Series comes very stout from the factory in regards to power with factory bhp number of 510hp. I figured this car didnt have too much left to gain from a simple dyno tune. Jeremy did a great job pulling out some nice peak numbers as well as great sweet spot increases with hp and tq.

Here is the dyno sheet--- the car ran consistent mid 450's stock (3 runs) with the best run at 456 whp. He then tuned the car, made some adjustements, and we had some nice gains thru the rpm curve. I gained 20 hp at the peak and even more tq thru the sweet spots... Ill take it on this already strong car. He had just tuned a PP car prior and the max hp was 417hp. The Black Series is a beast out of the box no doubt. I think long tubes are in order.....

Even Money

I've always thought it was underrated. When driving mine, it feels almost as strong as my '09 c63 with long tube headers.

CoolBDPhenom03

dodger63

Solid,

Patrick B

Hmm, that's quite interesting. I always thought that the Black Series and the PP 6.2L engines were physically identical, and that it was simply a tune and perhaps bolt-ons which makes the difference for the extra 29 HP.

Given that the most he's seen on a PP car was 417 HP at the wheels vs 456 HP at the wheels would seem to indicate that something else exists in the Black Series internally to unleash the additional power.

I'm curious as to which PP car he dyno'd....was it a 2012 with MCT, or a prior car with the 7G tronic? I wonder if we're seeing any greater driveline losses due to the torque converter vs the single wet clutch?



Patrick

604 C63

Betcha thats the highest the dyno at the Honda Acura place has ever been!

neoprufrok

Great job Vic. This seems to run counter to what Weistec said. They say that the PP cars have the same power on the dyno as the BS cars. What you got is more believable, or OE tuning doesn't tune the PP very well.

Agent_Oorange

I did the same thing with my BS back in November on a DynoDynamics with the Velos tune, and my before and after numbers are nearly identical to Vic55.

BenzoBoi

Good stuff as usual Vic!

Vic55

Thanks guys... there are some differences in the BS vs the P31 as I was informed from my tech:

Crankshaft
Connecting Rods
Pistons
Intake Manifold

Patrick B

Hmm....that doesn't make any sense (no offense Vic....just trying to sort out the information or misinformation that is out there).

As the P31 / Development Pack / Performance Pack is listed as using the con-rods, crankshaft and pistons from the SLS version of the AMG 6.2L.

It seems odd that AMG would stuff yet another version of con-rods, crank and pistons for an engine rated at 510 HP, vs the 563 HP of the SLS.

Checking in with the guys at Car and Driver, the ONLY difference between the C63 PP and the C63 BS is engine tune. Engine internals are supposedly otherwise identical.

Everything I've heard from Mercedes-Benz says the same thing, but I haven't personally torn down either engine, so I could very well be wrong.



Patrick

350driver

Those are some big differences. I always thought the internals were on the P31 were the same as the BS, and it mainly has cooling and suspension differences. Thanks for clearing it up Vic. I suppose that even with a tune, I could not get a P31 to BS power.

Patrick B

In fact, looking at the upcoming 2014 C63 507 Edition, it will essentially replace the Development Pack edition. And with the same engine as the DP, it will produce 450 lb-ft of torque and 507 HP (which are effectively light tune differences between it and the Black Series).

I'm pretty certain you could get Black Series HP with a good tune on a DP equipped car, and at the very most, with some basic bolt-ons (intake perhaps, and with LT headers almost certainly).



Patrick

Vic55

I might have been unclear... my tech checked EPC for Benz and the parts for the black are different than the p31... so the parts I listed are specifically built for Black.

Im welcome to clarity here. I just know what my car put down on the dyno that has been used for many other C63's for OE tuning. My CLS-TT with a tune hit 560 whp on the same dyno (diff days of course and conditions)- and the other P31 car didnt come close to mine.

Im sure C&D know alot about the car too.

Ill get a screen shot of the EPC so we review.

Vic55

Here a pics of the EPC:

Jason Anthony

My car is the car that came to 417.....I posted a pic of the dyno graph in a different thread. It has a PowerPipe (secondary cat delete / h-pipe) and charcoal delete with afe dry filters.

Also guys, the 507 car is 507 HP at the crank. This dyno is measuring the HP at the rear wheel - not the crank.

Patrick B

I think we're all well aware of that.


As to EPC data, I just checked with AMG, and the response I received is that they are identical parts.

I suspect that they have different part numbers, but the parts are otherwise identical (SLS, DP, and Black Series), mostly as a way of ensuring that inventory issues are readily handled, AND moreso that techs at the various dealerships don't get confused as to which pistons go into which car (as an example). We used to do this at BMW all the time, so it's not an uncommon practice. I can't imagine M-B being that much different.

The biggest difference between the SLS motors (M159) and the C63 DP/BS motors is in the cams. Which makes one think that a cam swap (obviously pretty pricey) is theoretically possible as well.

Again, given that the 507 is 3 HP off from the Black Series tends to reinforce the notion that internally, the engines are identical. Maybe an intake as the sole difference.....doubtful it's much more than that.



Patrick

Jason Anthony

Really curious about the differences now. Could anything else on the BS be a factor? Wheels? Exhaust?

Or is it possible that it's just not tuned as aggressively?

adibaiz

Here is the dyno of my 2012 C63 Coupe non PP with a Renn-tech tune and ROW airbox only.

johnnyblaze

Stout numbers!

Cant wait to see what my non-pp throws down with the same mods + long tube headers.

Even Money

the factory BS wheels are lighter, that may free up some whp...

Jason Anthony

True. The numbers aren't as important as the actual gains over the stock run. All dyno's read differently.

I wonder what my car would show with my P44SC wheels.

Pickles

That's pretty much the way I see it, except that doesn't the M159 engine have a dry sump?
Being a P31 owner, obviously I'd like to think that I have all the "good bits" in my engine.
I'd LOVE to know the REAL differences myself.....I'm of the opinion that much of the difference between P31 & B.S. is in the ECU.
It would be good if AMG could specifically clarify this......I don't think it would be hard for them.....to just say...."these are the differences that make the extra H.P."?
Cheers, Pickles.

TTA850

First off, nice power stock and tuned. I havent had a chance to dyno or tune mine yet but hopefully when the salt is all gone lol

As for part numbers a quick look on the EPC says the crank (1590300001), rods (1590300020), and pistons (1590300217) are the same between the P31, BS, and SLS. I didnt check the standard C63.

The heads (1560108820 & 1560108920) are the same between the P31 and BS but the SLS has different heads (1590100020 & 1590100120). The intakes (1561410901) and cams (1560504201, 1560504301, 1560504401, 1560504501) are the same between P31 and BS but the SLS uses different cams (1590500601, 1590500701, 1590500801, 1590500901). Interestingly though they all use different blocks 1560109900 for the P31, 1560109800 for the BS, and 1590100600 for the SLS.

I'd love to know the lift and duration differences between the C63 cams and SLS cams because they run around $2550-2750 a set and from what the EPC says the C63 uses the same part number valve tappet (1560500225) ,at least my '13 P31 car does and they are around $520 a set. I also wonder what if any flow differences there are in the heads, they are more cost prohibative at over $5K a set.

Anyway I hope the part numbers are correct and clear some questions up

novae500

Nice numbers you got from the tune. I finally got a chance for Jeremy to dyno tune my car last Friday after a remote tune last year. Very happy with the numbers from dyno tuning it. Def notice the difference in remote tune vs dyno tune. Car pulls faster and smooth as well. Guess he is back in Australia ?? from what he told me during the tune. Was going to tune your car and head back to Australia.