newhandle

I hope you guys can help me relieve of my suffering. Around my budget of $35K, the doors to many great cars are suddenly open, leaving me spoilt for choice. Having looked at possibly the E and CLS series AMG variants, I have deduced that the bigger car is just that much pig'ier to drive. I'm in my late 20's, and currently drive a 300hp VW wagon. This car has taken away from me countless hours and $$$ to get it up there, but in the process it's also been transformed into an annoying school-boy toy that no one wants to ride in. It is important to note that I'm fairly mechanically inclined and would generally perform repairs/upgrades to my cars myself. I have a thing for wagons, but my budget denies me access to them. Anyhow, let's cut to the chase. I want a nice modern car that I don't have to mess around with. In fact, I don't plan on modding at all, except with the exception of software chip.

My selection criteria:

- Must have 4 doors. Must be able to house 4 adults.
- 450hp or more
- Must be strictly BMW, Benz, Audi, or Volvo
- Must be performance marque: M, AMG, RS, Albina etc
- Must feel premium.
- Must be able to keep for at least 2-3 years trouble free.

So why compare apples to oranges? Well, Let's have a look at what's available to me:

08 C63 w/ 40K miles all stock | $38K... P1 pkg (drove it, very nice, no vibrations, super clean, but smell and felt cheap)

08 M5 w/ Dinan exhaust, SMG w/ 40K miles | $39K.... (all premium package.. leather everything)

As you can see, the price point is exactly the same and hence this conversation. If the M5 had SMG and clutch already replaced, I would instantly buy it over anything else. Unfortunately, the service records don't show any major work done to it so it's a gamble for me. Needless to say, I will purchase an aftermarket warranty on both cars.

The c63 drove real nice too, but the steering was very light (not a bad thing, but just didn't feel as connected as the M5), and the gear shifts felt slow as well.

I can see cons in both cars, but which car is the best bang for my buck? Which car can I live with as a DD? I plan to keep the car for at least 3 years.

Please don't bring M3 into this conversation. I will stab myself.

solekeeper

I love the M5 v10, but out of warranty, it's definitely a gamble. And it doesn't matter that the clutch has been replaced on the M5, your potential problem lies with with SMG. Just FYI. Very high failure rate..


I honestly don't think you're ready for either. Your budget is 35k and you trying to play with cars whose parts are not cheap. You may want to reconsider imo.

ShaneN.

I'm actually in the same boat. It's a tough choice, even though the m5 is now kind of dated looking with the new models out, it still looks great. and they sound AMAZING. But from me looking around the net i've pretty much been scared off on the m5. Even the owners joke about them breaking down every month. Honestly, if the SMG wasn't so expensive to maintain and so problematic I would probably pick m5. But for me, the m5 is out. I'm leaning c63 or cts-v, which seems like you aren't interested in, I love the c63 but I'll be getting an 09/10 probably limited or no warranty and i'm super nervous about the head bolt/coolant issue. I know, I'm not much help, interested in seeing where this convo goes.

CarHopper

Is your budget really 35k? You are looking at cars that are already priced 4k above not including taxes and fees and such which you are look at 45k at the end of the day without a trade...

Anywho, why not a 4 door m3? Don't stab yourself, just curious why not that car? M5's are a bit much and with the SMG tranny I would stay away if there isn't 5k to fix that set aside. Have you considered something like a 335i?

Or, I know you stated just a benz, bmw, audi but what about something like a WRX hatchback? It's similar to the wagon which you alluded to preferring and in your budget. It is also quite a fun car, I had a built Sti hatch and it was a blast.

You need a warranty on either the m5 or c63 of that year in all reality. Whether it is the M5 smg tranny or the C63 head bolts. The risk is there to be an expensive headache.

For reference btw, I also have a 135i with the n54 engine in it running a tune, downpipes, intakes and an e85 mix... All very light mods and the car has this:



That's whp and wtq and not bhp numbers... And the same engine that comes in the 335i.

Check it.. Click

In your budget, 4 doors, tons of power. And, it has better reliability than an 08 63 or M5.

That is just my 2 cents though.


However, if I HAD to pick between the M5 and C63 I would take the c63 all day. The sound is what does it for me. M5 can also sound sweet too of course, but the c takes the cake.

newhandle

@ sole: I agree with the 2nd part, but any car in my given category will cost the same in service/parts. I will fix most of issue myself with parts sourced from distributors so not really all that expensive in the end.

@ purple: I'm financing half the car so it doesn't really matter if its 35K or 40K. If 40K buys a much better car than that's what I'm getting. Out the door cost of 46K is a given. Also, I did in fact miss out on a lovely 535i xdrive wagon with 6spd. How much did you spend to get to those numbers? The thing about buying a new car is that I don't want to mess about with the mods. I've done so already with my VW and it takes a lot of time, and not exactly cheap either.

P.S: I made sure my SMG pump is covered in the aftermarket warranty. Predictably, the flywheel/clutch isn't. The headbolt issue is also covered.

S4 avant could be my alternative to c63, though I haven't found one local so far.

Edit: Found another 06 M5 with only 38K miles, though it's not premium package. Has no history of SMG/clutch replacement yet, but at such low miles it's not a problem. This car I can buy outright for $30K and spend whatever on warranty and also save on taxes the good ol' private party way :P.

CarHopper

I spent ~1k to get the numbers. The Jb4 tuner for the 1/3 series is amazing. Here check this out...

http://www.burgertuning.com/jb4_pnp_...nce_tuner.html

Watch the videos and find your way to the chart with all the different options it has. For example, I run map 5 which automatically computes temps, octanes, mods, etc... Hence the E85 mix which produces those numbers above. Spent 30k + mods out the door on my 1 series and 50k out the door on my c63 and the 1 series is noticeable faster. However, I don't just value speed in a car which is why I have the two.

As far as time is concerned, 1 afternoon and you are set. Jb4 for the first time is ~1 hour install and then intakes are about 30 minutes. The biggest pain are the downpipes which can be a pain at ~2 hours to install. I will also in the future upgrade my FMIC but that is a little ways away.

I actually had 20k cash ready to dump into the 1 series but I ended up with the c63 because I didn't want to kill the reliability of the 1 due to past experience with my Sti.

Anyways, as long as you know things will be 100% covered by whatever warranty you have then I'd get the C63. BMW does feel a bit more sporty when behind the wheel but that isn't to say the C63 is a ton of fun still and the sound... my god it is phenomenal.

Superleggera123

having owned an e60 m5.
TRUST me
stay away
as a daily driver the tranny just cant keep up and if it isnt the SMG pump its a host of other problems. not to mention the v10 just drinks gas, i would on a regular occasion see the gas needle move steadily. Lastly the s85 v10 is a piece of art but also has its Achilles heal which is VANOS and the oil delivery system. All in all unless its a low mileage example with a known history stay away and stick with the c63. or like mentioned above get a 335i. VERY easily moddable and very easy on the wallet to tune and get high power numbers. also the n54 is a bullet proof engine

CarHopper

^ Exactly. N54 is forged/sleeved from factory. I seriously love the thing. And I'm glad someone was able to chime in about the e60 m5. I don't like speaking about things I haven't really had before but my brother was looking at the e60 for a while so we dug up a ton on it. He ended up with a v12 760i which is pretty fun.

I think it is a safe bet at least here that people will say to shy away from the m5.

Good luck!

roadtalontsi

my friend had an m5 which i've driven on occasion. Having driven every amg car out there... The m5 has no torque. Absolutely non. It maybe fast on the high way or at 7k. But other than that it feels slow as ***** and like a big heavy truck with an under powered motor until you rev it out. Id take any 550 benz or other amg over an m5. 4dr m3 is pretty nice car though. doesnt feel nearly as under powered.

Superleggera123

the n54 in the 135i might just be the best engine/chassis combo available right now.
But kicks *** in the 335i equally.
and Roadtalontsi is right
the lack of torque compared to the m5s weight adds to the horrendous gas mileage.
plus all the power is above 7k rpm therefore the e60 m5 is optimal for the autobahn or purely highway driving.

newhandle

Is the same engine basis for the 535i? I think a 3 series is just going to be, well, a bit on the smaller side like the c class. What about the 550i? I drove that thing and the shifting was incredible.

Bottom line is, if I absolutely must mod a car, it must be done properly. I already have a sleeper wagon. Wouldn't mind getting a 535i wagon with 6spd, IF I can find the darn things.

abcut973

Before getting my C63 i was on purchasing a M5 badly! But then i did my homework and realized it was not worth it for all the reasons mentioned above. Particularly the SMG and the V10 being too thirsty for daily drives. I test drove the C63 and that was the decision maker as well.
So i would suggest you to look for a C63 08 or 09. Get a extended warranty and enjoy it the best you can. You said you won't mod the car but once an AMG owner the modding spree will start to hitch you badly !!!!

By the way C63 and M5 are not in the same category. C63 and M3 are.
I hope this will help.

CarHopper

550i is pure secks. That car is incredibly smooth even with a tune and has some ridiculous torque.

To me, comparisons are as such.. C63/Class to M3/3 series. E63/Class to M5/5 series.

ShaneN.

Good info, and pretty much exactly what every other owner has to say. Was your m5 any/much worse than the c63 on fuel?

newhandle

Guys, this was very helpful already. Given such a bad rep of the M5, I think I'm going to mark it off for time being. The dealerships won't be selling that car anytime soon anyway.

For a Benz perspective, the C63 is the cheapest of the 63 series and obviously the most fun to drive. +1 for the C63. I'm also exploring possibly a RS4 or S4 avant now.

Now... Let's talk about the N54 because this is new to me. @ Purple: Are you telling me that 500whp is safe on the smg trans? If so, I'm all for it. Also, how did you get all your parts and tune for just 1K? What psi are running right now?

newhandle

Is a CLS55 from 06 worth looking? There's a few in my area with <60K miles and around $30K w/ service history. How does it compare to the newer 7spd cls?

CarHopper

No, 500whp isn't safe... But, the 135i/335i don't have SMG transmissions either. It's either a DCT (newer models) or a steptronic in the olders. I believe that is the way it works. Let me dig a little bit, however, I have been told first hand by one of the leading tuners that the tranny's will hold.

Here is the email from the tuner:

Kiva, Thus far the automatic transmission has held up quite nicely for daily driving purposes and all of our customers have not had any issues with longevity during street driving. The only issue that has occured so far only happens on half mile air strip races like Shift S3ctor. We have some things in the works that we hope to have sorted out soon. All in all it has proven to be a great platform to mod, no matter what transmission is on the car.

And then I asked what the issue was and here is the response:

Kiva, It's not a third gear issue, but a 4th to 5th gear shifting issue at very high speeds. Most cars will be more reliable than a built motor Subaru. We haven't had any transmission failures yet with any of our single turbo cars. I can say without hesitation that you will not encounter any of these shifting issues driving you car on the street.

The mention of the subaru was because I had brought up my previous car which actually had a great transmission but a weak block. And the shift sector he was talking about are guys doing really high speed runs on cars with some serious power... Nothing you'd be around while keeping it limited to FBO (full bolt on) mods. ALSO, big note here, you'll notice he said no failures with any single turbo cars... Single turbo'd 135i's run between 550whp and 650whp RELIABLY. See here: http://procedetuning.com/BMW/n54/styled-15/index.html

Anyway, the transmissions in the 1/3 is different than the smg M5. Basically the SMG transmission is like a manual just no clutch pedal but still has the mechanics of a manual transmission as far as engagements are concerned. The 135i/335i etc have automatic transmission characteristics.

Long story short, the transmission will easily hold the power that you are looking to get especially keeping the mods light.

Here are all the links to the parts I have and the costs. Keep in mind, this is for the 135i I have but it would basically be identical in any n54 motor.

PS: n54 its 2010 and younger and the n55 is 2011+ (pretty sure)

JB4 + cable for data logging + DCI (dual cone intakes) $599
http://www.burgertuning.com/jb4_pnp_...nce_tuner.html

Active Autowerke downpipes (pretty much the best out there at 3'') $699
http://store.activeautowerke.com/act...e-n54-p83.aspx

My apologies, it comes out to about $1300. I knew it was around 1k and I already had the intakes laying around from my brothers 135i which he sold. But that is literally everything you need to get numbers similar to that dyno graph. Seriously the car is a riot.

However, there are always the cons... This car will need a fuel pump/injectors about everything 25k-30k miles and once tuned probably closer to every 20k miles. Look around, these fueling components are the only flaw, but none the less, a flaw on the n54 platform.


Hope that helps

Edit: After looking at Vishnu's site which is linked in this post the modification section is listed as 135/335/535 so I am assuming that this all applies to a 535 as well.

Second Edit: Dug some more. Yes, 535i can play too. The JB4 unit is also applicable to that vehicle. If I were you and now considering something like this be sure to get the n54 motor and not the n55. Biggest difference, n54 is twin turbo and n55 is single twin scroll turbo.

CarHopper

And go here for CLS info..

https://mbworld.org/forums/w219-174/

I am not familiar with pro's/con's really of the car. To me it looks amazing. Those cars seriously are some head turners. However, with the superchargers and more moving parts I'm sure there are a few issues along those lines. Looking at the first page there very quickly I saw multiple warranty threads and a few with regards to faulty superchargers. Might want to check that out.

Also, why buy something older with higher mileage when you can get something newer with less mileage that is equally as good if not better?

newhandle

^ all good info. I have for years purposely avoided bimmers because I see a whole bunch of them on a short trip to work everyday. The N54 sounds promising but it won't get me anywhere if a MT or DCT 5 series wagon can't be found, if it exists at all. Then again... there's the M3 sedan DCT, which I would absolutely hate to own.

What were you going to recommend that is "newer" and "better"?

van_rider

I owned a 2007 m5 for a couple years. I'll share some of my thoughts, not a lot of them will be positive unfortunately... We had a bit of a love/hate relationship.
-the m5 gas mileage is absolutely the worst I have ever seen. I rarely got 200km to the tank if I drve like a grandmother - which defeated the whole purpose. Get ready for exotic-super car mileage.
-the torque doesn't come through until over 4k rpm, meaning it felt actually pretty slow around town and in the city, didnt have that point and shoot power that one would expect.
-the sound I felt was just OK... I mean it screamed over 5k rpm and when pushed on a track but around town (99.9% of the time) it sounded like an old diesel.
-the SMG tranny s quick but feels very rough and clunky when driving slow or around town.
-even when mine was under warranty it was about as reliable as a Chinese motorcycle. Even if you have a source for parts the rest 50% of the battle is that the car is SO computerized that only a dealer would be able to properly diagnose or repair.

The good:
-I always thought the car was beautiful, inside and out.
-after 4-5k rpm the car pulls like a freight train
-smooth and agile especially of highway the adjustable dampers are a plus.
-mine had the full merino leather option and it was one of the most highest quality interiors I'd ever seen, even for today's standards. Especially compared to a 09/10 c class which has to be one of the worst interiors ever put in a car especially with a three pointed star on the hood.

I LOVE my '12 C63, I had upgraded from a '10 mainly cause I just couldn't get over the crap interior. That being said, from a budget/reliability/performance angle, I would consider a BMW 335 m-sport model of that vintage. Exceptional car and the best auto transmission you'll ever come by.
Good luck.

Sanders27

Was in a similar situation as you (age, money, etc) but ended up with an 09 C63 cause my wife didn't like my second choice 08 E63. Not sure where you are located but there are several good selections of 08 E63 or CLS55/63. Both are worth a look...

Jycke

The M5 SMG gear box has a history of breaking down, replacement around 5k. Besides the SMG is a b!*ch to use in daily drive. As for the Volvo + 450 hp i don't know where you'll find that. C63 all the way

USCGTO

I was in your shoes as regards buying an M5 vs C63.

I drove the M5 once, and then twice to make sure, it wasn't just a bad example.

Turns out, I had overlooked one vital piece of information.

M5: 383 ft-lbs. @ 6100 rpm
C63: 443 ft-lbs with 360 lb ft available almost through-out the rev range..

CarHopper

The whole "newer" and "better" was just alluding to the c63/335/535 and such. For me, unless it is a honda, once I get up around 60k miles on something I tend to just wonder when something is going to break. I'd rather not have that feeling after just buying a car and still have 30k miles + until I get that feeling and by then I'd have more money set aside just in case. Possibly because I am just weird? Dunno.

You may have mentioned it above, but what about an RS4? I looked around some for the Avants and they are all pretty high mileage. Then I looked for RS4's and they are starting to get up there in miles but actually don't seem like a terrible idea... 39k for 50,000 miles on an 07 isn't all that bad. Not to mention it's an RS4. Pretty similar to a C63 in price/miles

Dadz63

Not sure where you are, but I have a Friend with a 2008 (might be an 09") Alpina B7 with 47k, it is right in your price range. Black on black. $10k in JL Audio stereo upgrades running off the factory head unit, built it Passport 9500CI. Warranty available. PM me is interested.