bhamg

Read the last few pages of the sticky to catch up on that but if you're looking at 09/10's then yes, they were built with old-style head bolts.

Valvestud

Because you're outside of the US, I can't get your car's data on epc.startekinfo.com, but you should be able to go there and subscribe. Subscription is free in US for US vehicles, but costs $12 for world car subscription. Not sure how it works outside of US.

Regards,

Joe

jav_au

Hi all,

First off I apologise for reviving an old thread and secondly would like to introduce myself here. I have been looking at purchasing a used ML or C 63 around the 07/08 mark and have done my research and come across these multiple head bolt issue threads. Having seen it happen here in aus also makes me a little more hesitant and anxious as to whether I should pull the trigger. I am currently looking at an ML 63 which I can pick up private sale and transfer the AWN warranty on.

The issue is these warranties typically only cover up $5k per item (ie. engine) on a claim so if the car was to have the head bolt issue and hydro lock I would only be able to get 5k covered and the rest out of pocket for a rebuild (which from what I have read is ridiculously expensive).

I guess I am seeking advice in a few forms :

1. Would you even consider buying an 07 ML that falls into this category?
2. Would you try and do the "preventative maintenance route" and replace the head bolts with studs/new MB bolts? Can this be done without the head off after pulling off the cams off and replacing a bolt at a time? There seems to be conjecture either way about this.
3. Does anybody know the cost to have this work done as a precaution? Is it something an independent Benz specialist here in Brisbane would be able to perform or is it going to be a dealer only scenario (ie. $$$$$)

Any help is really appreciated as I just love these vehicles however after reading about these potentially catastrophic failures from a pure metallurgy/ QA point of view on what is meant to be the pinnacle of engineering in an engine really irks and scares me!

Thanks again,

Javed

schmick325

I had an 07 ML63 for 3 yrs and if I were to buy another one, the head bolt swap would be the first thing i'd do, along with fitting updated valve buckets at the same time.

They are awesome cars and I do miss it a lot, however owning it outside of warranty is a worry.

The Airmatic suspension will be on the out ($5k for 1 front strut), the engine mounts, power steering pump/rack leaks. The trans can give some grief as well (harsh shifts) if it hasn't been serviced properly (oil/filter change every 60k kms).Diff bearings can go and the brakes wear out around 65k kms

The only way to live with the car is to source the parts from the USA and have an independent mech service it.

jav_au

Hi schmick325. Thanks very much for the info. Nice to see you are a local to Brisbane also! The car I am potentially looking at will be at a hard to resist price if it goes through and will have another ~2 years of AWN extended warranty on it (not manufacturers warranty but a 3rd party warranty company). Do you happen to know of any decent merc specialists around that you think may be able to perform the head bolt/ cam bucket change competently?

To any of the other Aussie guys with the M156 motor, have you guys taken the plunge for a precautionary swap of the head bolts? Would there be a potential for a mechanic to cause more damage than good or is the head bolt/gasket change relatively straight forward?

Thanks for any help.

buzzpop63

Hi Jav - I am new to the forum as well and I bought a 06/10 c63 last december and like you did as much research and looking through threads / forums on the headbolt issue before buying and as much as this is an issue, i take relief knowing that the issue seems to be very rare and if you do look at the whole range of models the m156 powers, i really dont believe its as great of an issue to decide not to buy a car with this motor.

I bought mine from a non-MB dealer (renault) and got an extended warranty for a year as well (on top of the normal few months) but it did seem to limit having to have the car serviced there as well which so far I havent taken it to them and have got the oil done straight after purchasing and then a recent B service direct at MB Brisbane.

I have asked them about the headbolt issue and the tech said he had seen one and i asked them as I know mine is affected as my engine number is about 1000 less than the prescribed end date of the issue. Definately keep us posted on any research about preventative costs and perhaps try Austar motors ? for some sort of costs on preventative replacement.

jav_au

Hi buzzpop. I guess there is some relief in knowing it seems to be a rare case, but the part that really scares me is the fact that the failures seem to all be in the same location of the bolt and the shearing of the bolt head has happened in a few documented cases. Do you mind if I ask who the warranty company is that your car is under? Also did the MB guys allude to whether MB recognise the issue as a design flaw or is it pretty much suck and see? Like I was saying (and I assume will be the same case with your warranty) the claims for each component is limited to a maximum claim usually around 5k or so. This would be okay if the head bolt issue doesn't cause any further damage but if the motor hydro locks and the whole thing needs to be rebuilt it is definitely going to cost a lot more than 5k which means you/I would be out of pocket a lot of cash.

I was hoping based on Morgan B's case down in Melbourne that it would set a form of precedent in the unfortunate case the motor does go that MB can contribute to the costs associated with repair.

However I am a big advocate of prevention is better than cure and if getting the bolts changed over can be achieved without a massive out of pocket expense and to have peace of mind I would be inclined to go this way. I am just hoping there are some independents that can competently perform this as I typically hate using the dealers for any brand of car anywhere.

I have sent emails to a couple of independents including Austar and German Prestige Services (was highly recommended on a forum). I guess the only problem is there are specialised tools required for removing the camshafts properly in these engines and I am not sure if only the dealers would have these.

Anyways will post back any info I find and I hope I am not scaring you just wanted to make sure I was fully informed. Are you enjoying the C63? I guess I can say I am only going to all this trouble because I want an AMG so bad as they seem like really amazing cars when these issues are sorted.

schmick325

Part of the reason I sold my car is that I had trouble finding a capable independent mechanic to service it in Brisbane. The final straw was an erratic idling problem that I had 2 shops look at. 1 shop kept the car for a whole day, made up a BS problem and wanted to charge me for it. The 2nd shop played with the car for 5 days, charged me $1000 and it was worse when I picked it up.

I ended up spending $700 to flatbed it to Sonny at Autowerks in Sydney who is a dead set guru with the M156. He had the car diagnosed and repaired in 3 hours.

If i were to look for an ML, it would be in Sydney, so I could get him to have a look at it before purchase. I don't have experience with Austar, but all the other Merc 'specialists' we have Bris made me feel the car was too much for them to handle.

Im not sure about AWN's warranty, don't they have limits per year as well?

They aren't the most reliable things, and outside of the dealer who has the conveniance of loan cars, it can be all too much.

As for the headbolts, the car was used daily by my partner and had our kids in it. How would you feel if you get a ph call from them saying the car is broken down on the side of the freeway due to this failure?

-Marlin-

The first thing I did in looking for the right used C63 was to make sure the engine serial number was past the headbolt redesign. The sheer fact that the headbolts were redesigned by Mercedes Benz is an admission of guilt to me and all I needed to know. Some members that didn't have the redesigned engine models try to convince everyone else that it was "just a handful of cars effected" and no big deal......just to make themselves feel better.

It's a huge deal and if you are aware of it and don't avoid the cars effected in making your purchase of a retardedly expensive car to repair, you need to have your head checked.

There is not a single member that has the effected engine that does not worry in the back of their mind "will today be the day that my coolant level is low"....the initial telltale sign of headbolt failure.

mr747

Sonny is a gun no doubt and he has a very good name in the industry but he is yet to do head bolts on a c63 I know this because he told me

But I have just purchased some and are waiting for them to arrive along with some other things so sonny might just be doing his first c63 head bolt job soon

jav_au

Do you know how much it will cost to complete this job?

What are peoples thoughts if you can get a m165 based vehicle at a really good price that even after the head bolt replacement cost you are well ahead would you take the punt? At the moment the ML I am looking at is around 12-15k cheaper than anything comparable and up to 40k cheaper for anything post 2010.

Schmick seems to have had a bad time with some issues in his ML so I am wondering if the C63 will be a more reliable chassis.

mr747

Why dont you give sonny a call im sure he will be happy to speak to you

buzzpop63

Hi again Jav and look forward to hearing your responses from the mechanics regarding the issue. The merc dealer really didnt know much about it to provide further details to you other that they had done one but it was noted that they tend to look after customers who get their car serviced there which makes me think as my car has only a merc service history and I will continue to do so, I'd like to think if there is an issue if my car has spent $$$$ over the last few years at the dealership then I would be more looked after than some random who pops up with an issue. Even though i bought mine form a non MB dealership, it had only been serviced there.

How do I like the C63 ? Love it - to be honest it was this or an M5 and when you think of the undoubted SMG issues, this was a no brainer when it comes to maintenance costs. Look, coming from a 5 series, the interior is rubbish but that really isnt the point. Mine is a 10 Black and stock with the 18inch wheel which i love and see many with the 19 wheel that just don't look right or as classy perhaps.

To be honest I am in my mid 30's and it was just the right time to get the car I wanted before the inevitable family etc means I need something else but after 8 - 9 months of ownership I couldnt see myself driving anything else. I work and live in the CBD so it goes out on the weekends only and I am excited on a friday night just knowing I get to go for a drive the next day!

I say go for it but check the history - like most cars, thats your best bet. As you know here in AUS these cars are expensive even second hand but I guarantee that (especially with a c63) that when you hit that start button in the morning, there is no better feeling (that won't be blocked for inappropriatness - is that word ?) and these cars are quite common on the road so the chances of the headbolt is rare enough for me to not worry. And to be honest if he CEl comes on and I get it to the dealer early enough for a $5k - $7k repair, the joy of owning the car already has made up for that.

Cheers

jav_au

Thought I'd post up what I have heard back regarding this from some local guys for those who may be interested.

Peter at Bavaria Motor Tuning seemed to think it was a big job to pull the heads and I do not think he has done much work on the m156 motor (he is more into and prefers BMW's). He believed that the head would need to be fully removed as opposed to the one bolt at a time method.

Sam at German Prestige Services has worked on the m156's a bit and seemed to think that the issue is not common (I don't think he has seen it happen) and advised that he wouldn't personally do the change as preventative. His thoughts were that the vehicle would exhibit the signs of failure as an indicator before hydro locking the motor. He seemed to think this scenario would most likely be due to cars being abused and thrashed the life out of, but from what I have read that seems contrary to popular belief. He said he could do the job but would take both heads completely off as well.

A Workshop Foreman from MB at Fortitude Valley contacted me back and identified the following :

"Hi Javed, The remedy for such a failure as per Mercedes Benz factory is;

1. Remove cylinder heads
2. Measure piston undercut (specified value: 0.05 mm +/- 0.18 mm). If the piston undercut is less than the maximum (0.23 mm), the affected connecting rod with piston must be replaced.
3. Replace all cylinder head bolts
4. Replace all hydraulic tappets
5. Perform oil change including filter
6. Another oil change must be performed after a test drive (engine must be warm)

The possible effected motors are M156 up to engine end no. # 060658

Typically the charge for such a job would be 6 hrs @ $192.50 + GST p/hr.
If you can provide me with a VIN number of the vehicle, I could check the engine number to see if it is within the possible effected range, and if so can provide a complete quote.

I hope this issue does not deter you from purchasing such a wonderful car, please do not hesitate to contact me for any further concerns."


Another email:


"Yes the engine is within the effected range. We have dealt with many cars with this engine, however I have only seen a handful that actually failed and required repair.
I have not seen such an extreme case such as the one from Melbourne personally. In most of the cases I have been involved with, the symptoms are coolant warning light coming on with no external leaks found. In some cases, the coolant level would take months to decrease enough to bring the low level light on.
If I personally were to buy one of these vehicles, I would NOT take preventative action. I would however pay more attention to a low coolant level then if I were driving a different car.
The buckets - I have seen wear prematurely, which could be due to a number of influences (i.e. Driving style, maintenance history, oil quality, material used)
I am unsure of the m159 bucket swap, we always use the correct part no. for the application, which can change if modification or change to the part is required.
I have not seen nor heard of the rust concern on the door seam welds, is this an Australian relevant concern?

One thing to note, the new C-class W205 has been released – so I can only assume a new AMG variant would soon follow. This could have a drastic change on the value of the later c63."


I later Confirmed that the 6 hours quoted was for just 1 head and that it will be approximately double for both heads.



So it leaves me at a crossroads as to what to do here. Not sure which way I am going to go at this stage but I am still waiting for Sonny at Autowerks in Sydney to get back to me and Glynn at Tri-star Nundah.


Will keep you guys informed.


Cheers,
Javed

schmick325

The door rust is a real issue on the early 06/07 cars (ML only issue). Have a search on here and you will find a few threads.

I also had mine repaired no questions asked by Mercedes at their accredited body shop. At first I thought it was on the front doors only however the shop foreman showed me where to look on the rear ones and sure enough it was there.

They had done plenty of them.

The car was out of factory warranty as well.

schmick325

At the end of the day, the cars are fantastic and give you a real sense of fulfillment when driving them. However, like any ageing European car, you should expect to be visiting the work shop.

buzzpop63

Hi Jav

Great info and keep up the posts. Did you get the impression that the quoted job from MB included the parts as well ? If so it would appear with GST its around $3k for the job and assuming the second email isn't from MB ?

Have you driven both of these cars yet ? and if it's not appropriate what sort of budget have you got as the reason I mention as that engine number is literally just 1000 engines above my build which is 06/10 and I have read that only a month or 2 later this headbolt issue is finished so depending on your budget you may be able to stretch for a later 2010 /11 pre facelift as there are certainly a few for sale with rapidly dropping prices.

Cheers

jav_au

Hi Buzz,

I will send you a PM with some more information about this.

I spoke to Sonny today and he was fantastic. I really wish he was up here in Brisbane! He seems to know these AMG's inside out and told me some horror stories of other mechanics doing things to these beautiful cars that he had top fix up! He remembered schmick's car as well.

Sonny seemed to say he sees these issues a bit, and advised myself that to properly alleviate this issue the bolts need to be changed. Also advised that the bucket change should be done at the same time.

Sonny said this was around 30 hours of work to do properly. He said you can do the one bolt at a time method but is is very dodgy and you run a big risk. The 30 hours of work he said would come out to around $3k but he said allow a plus or minus of 5 hours for anything that might spring up.

He actually knew exactly which ML I was looking at which shows he knows about these cars. All I can say is if you have any issue that the guys up here struggle with, get your car on a truck down to Sonny in Sydney before you throw too much cash at it.

MB got back to me today with a quote......
"To do the Job it would be $4344 in parts and 10hrs labour at $192.50 + GST p/hr
Depending on the condition of the vehicle, other costs may arise (i.e. brittle/cracked hoses)

Just to clarify, this repair is not necessary and is only needed to be done if tests show there is a genuine concern."


However based on a 20 minute conversation Sonny convinced me he is the only person you should consult with these motors. I believe he told me he had around 8 or so C63's in the shop at the time he was talking to me on the phone. Also said might as well throw studs in there to get rid of the problem for good.


Hope this helps.


Regards,


Javed

aussie e55

30 hours labour @ sonny"s ???

10 hours labour @ MB ???

t4orce

MB apprentices work super fast.

Mort

MB standard time for head gasket replacement ( Includes: Clean Carbon & Make All Necessary Adjustments.):

One bank - 9.7 hours
Both banks - 14.6 hours

DuaneC63

Although I made a promise not to get political on these forums, this cheap shot is too easy. Is Wayne Swan the Barrack Obama of AUS?

mr747

Hi Aussies

I am struggling finding someone to do head bolt install in Melbourne and i just spoke to the head tech at Melbourne Mercedes and he told me they take the cam shafts out and do 1 bolt at a time he said its a 6 hr job and will cost about 1200 just for the labour if i supply the parts

glennhl

Excellent post! I bought a 2011 and luckily it was past the engine serial number. But if I had an engine with the bad head bolts it would bug me to no end because the bad bolts are a design issue and a ticking time bomb.

jav_au

Hi mr747. This is interesting to hear. Did the MB tech seem to think this was a good idea? The reason I ask this is that everyone I have spoken to has suggested this is not a good way to do it and could be extremely risky. Did the MB tech seem to have any concerns? Also typically the dealers don't install parts supplied by the owner so is against what I am used to hearing.

Do you happen to have any contact details for the tech? Perhaps you could PM me because I might ask them to pass these details onto our local techs up here and see if it could be done for me up here If i so choose.

Regards,

Javed