changster

Hi, again sorry if this is a noob question. I did a search and couldn't find anything.

I want to add a JL Powerwedge single 12 or 13" JLW7 to my 2011 estate. I think my car currently has the Harmon Karden setup as it does say Harmon Karden on the grills of my front speakers. I do not want to touch the head unit or the mids/highs. I want to integrate it with my existing front end.

I heard I need something like an Audiocontrol unit, the sub, and amps. The sub and amps are easy... but I don't know anything about signal processors. What signal processor do I need to integrate the sub with the front end? I need a unit that will make the bass and the front end balanced, which I think really is just a sub attenuation if the bass is too much. Currently the H/K front end is perfectly fine. I don't want the signal processor to override the way the front end factory "3D sound" etc. I don't want the signal processor to do weird timing delays, equalisation, etc of the front end. I just think the sound is great as is, but needs like a 12" sub.

Any recommendations on the signal processing unit, and how that hooks up/integrates with the front end and the sub?

Thanks,
Isaac

Also has anyone gotten rid of the spare tire/tools and stuck a sub in there with some sort of custom enclosure like fiberglass, etc?

Kriston

Hi Isaac,

You can integrate the subwoofer with ease. You have 2 options if you wish to retain the factory head unit.

You can purchase a line level converter it will tap into the signal on your rear speakers and convert it to an RCA out. Since you have an Estate I assume you are across the pond from North America. You can find these quite easily online or any mobile audio store.

In terms of signal processing, your Amplifier will have built in processing. I wouldn't worry about adding any other signal processing. Look for a quality line level converter, with a high voltage pre out. Let your amplifier handle the equalization etc. Most of these amps now have a bass level adjustment that you can wire upfront hidden out of sight. That way you can control the output of your sub easily.

A 13W7 is a lot of subwoofer for an estate. I had 2 x 13w7 back in the days and it was ridiculous to say the least

Enjoy!

changster

Kriston thank you very much. I'll look for a line level converter, thanks!

And yes I'm across the pond from North America. I've always wanted a big JL sub so it's time for me to get one. Honestly you're right, a 13W7 is probably quite a lot of bass. I wouldn't mind a single 12W6 either.

Kriston

I would recommend a 10W7 in the JL High Output box.

Believe me, you will not need more bass then that in the Estate. The hatch backs amplify sub frequencies much better then conventional trunk/boot cars. Anything more then this will be over kill IMHO.

Save the bucks and go with the smaller sub and a good amp to pair with it. The JL 500/1 is a great choice for the 10W7 H.O. setup.

SCAMG13

I recommend a summing device. You will be a little disappointed in the higher gain section as HK's processing is designed to roll off the low frequencies at higher output to avoid distortion(blown speakers).
Whenever I installed in MB's I used JL audio's clean sweep.
You need this to sum the outputs from full range audio so it can restore/reproduce low frequencies when the factory EQ would max out.

You can test this for your self by playing a bass heavy song at approx. 50% volume and raise it louder while you focus on the factory woofer. You will notice it stops getting louder much earlier than the rest of the speakers.

Assuming this is why you want such an overwhelming woofer, for what it's worth I would suggest a t13w5. You could save a lot of weight (your CG will be even worse than it already is) and it will produce much more bass than the factory full range speakers can match.

changster

Thanks for the recommendation. So you would prefer a 10w7 I'm the HO ported enclosure box over day a 12w6 in a sealed enclosure? I like to bump the bass sometimes when I'm in the mood for some gangsta rap hahah...

This is actually my family car and grocery getter. My plan was to have an easy to remove sub enclosure so when I need to use the hatch space for big trips I can easily remove it and store it in the garage, then hook it back up for the rest is the 95% if the time when driving just myself.

So you have heard subs inside an estate/wagon/hatchback before? The bass is a lot more pronounced than in a trunk is a very interesting observation. I never knew that,

changster

Ahhhh thanks for highlighting this. This is extremely important as I wouldn't want the factory to attenuate the bass. Ok I will get the JL cleansweep instead of just a generic line level converter.

I also like your t13w5 idea and I save weight. The C63 estate is already a very heavy car and any weight savings is good. What would you say the output level would be compared with like a 12w6, 10w7? Don't get me wrong I'm not going for max SPL but I do want good bass for hip hop and rap music.

SCAMG13

Yes, I have owned/operated a couple high end car audio shops. The reason a hatchback design sounds much better(especially when woofer is facing towards the back) is not only that the sound waves are unobstructed from the ear but the longer distance of travel of this frequency the better. Ever notice how bass reverberates so well when your 5-10ft away from a car playing loud low frequencies.

It all depends what you want to do with the system and what type of music you primarily listen to.
Ported enclosures are essentially tuned to a certain frequency and less musical.
Sealed is much more responsive/cleaner and have a much broader frequency range to compliment multiple music types.

If you are not planning to upgrade the rest of the system, personally I would recommend (of course not knowing your style) a sealed enclosure with a larger displacement woofer(hence my t13w5 recommendation). Now also taking into consideration the car your driving, I would recommend a concealed or well built fiberglass enclosure. This can be done very tastefully if installed properly.
Then you wouldn't have to worry about removing it. And it would compliment the output of the factory HK system much better than a w7.

Now if you wanted to upgrade everything, the sky is the limit.

SCAMG13

Obviously you can see I am biased towards the T13W5 (because I've have great experiences with their performance)but don't get me wrong the W6/W7 are great woofers. Personally I am a huge fan of the capability of a 13" woofer with a <3" mounting depth that has a 10" Voice coil. This VC design makes the woofer extremely accurate and stable at high volume. If installed correctly 99% of people could not tell you it was a thin woofer if they didn't see it before hand.

changster

SCAMG13, I took your advice and got all emotional at the dealer and bought the JL Audio "Truck Powerwedge" that houses the 13.5" TW5v2 speaker. http://intl.jlaudio.com/cs113tg-tw5v...-systems-93256

They sold me a Zapco Z series 150.2 amp which will be bridged to run it. http://www.zapco.com/zprodz152.html

The DSP / line level converter will be a Zapco DSP-Z8. http://www.zapco.com/zproddspz8.html

I know the DSP is overkill but it gives me some room for expansion if I decide to swap the front stage as well later.

I didn't want a class D amp maybe because I'm old school. My home audio amps are pure class A actually. Anyway, I just really hope the 150.2 will be stable at 2ohms even though the dealer said it won't be a problem.

I'll start here. If for some reason the bass doesn't have enough SPL then I'll re-think it with a 12W6 or a W7 series. I'll go light as possible first then work my way up if the bass doesn't suffice.

Thanks again for your guys's help. Any feedback or critique is welcome, never shunned. I'm still a little worried about the amp not being able to run a 2ohm woofer though.

changster

SCAMG13, I took your advice and got all emotional at the dealer and bought the JL Audio "Truck Powerwedge" that houses the 13.5" TW5v2 speaker. http://intl.jlaudio.com/cs113tg-tw5v...-systems-93256

They sold me a Zapco Z series 150.2 amp which will be bridged to run it. http://www.zapco.com/zprodz152.html

The DSP / line level converter will be a Zapco DSP-Z8. http://www.zapco.com/zproddspz8.html

I know the DSP is overkill but it gives me some room for expansion if I decide to swap the front stage as well later.

I didn't want a class D amp maybe because I'm old school. My home audio amps are pure class A actually. Anyway, I just really hope the 150.2 will be stable at 2ohms even though the dealer said it won't be a problem.

I'll start here. If for some reason the bass doesn't have enough SPL then I'll re-think it with a 12W6 or a W7 series. I'll go light as possible first then work my way up if the bass doesn't suffice.

Thanks again for your guys's help. Any feedback or critique is welcome, never shunned. I'm still a little worried about the amp not being able to run a 2ohm woofer though.

SCAMG13

Do you have any other data sheets on the zapco? I am a little concerned that it won't be stable at a 2ohm bridged load.
Besides the output will be off as this amp outputs 500w at 4ohms bridged.

Diabolis

Gents - AFAIK the cars with the premium HK system are DSP equalized to hell. While the easiest signal feed for an aftermarket sub would be from the existing subwoofer under the spare, the frequencies present are filtered and boosted/cut to suit the rest of the system in the car and unsuitable as a source for a separate amp/sub.

I already tried doing this (as well as getting the signal from the rear bookshelf speakers), but the end result in either case was worse than what I had started with, resulting in crappy and/or boomy bass regardless of all the LPF cutoff and level tweaking (on a very decent Clarion amp driving a JL 10" sub which sounded amazing in my Audi). AFAIK there is no line-level or speaker-level output anywhere in the car that can be used to feed an additional amp and sub. If anyone can offer any suggestions where to get the signal from, I am all ears...

SCAMG13

I believe i have addressed this concern here.
The purpose of this summing device is to reproduce a flat output.
I have installed this in multiple HK systems amongst other branded systems as well where aftermarket integration is challenging.

changster

Can I ask:
1) Where do you tap to get a full frequency range of signal so the summing device can sum the various frequencies? Kriston earlier had said at the rear speakers. Do you agree?
2) Since my plan is to leave the front end untouched, can I hookup the DSP/summing device so it is not actually doing anything to the front end? Basically it is just summing he signal, feeding to the subwoofer amp and that's it?
3) regarding point 2 of my own question, would it actually be better if I let the DSP to equalize the front end instead of leaving it untouched? The factory equalization already seems good to me.

Lastly I'm gonna call Zapco. Will come back whether the amp is suitable at 2ohms bridged.

SCAMG13

See notes below

Diabolis

Seeing as high-end audio is a hobby of mine (and being an EE with a DSP background also helps) and furthermore having just bought two new toys - my C63 and a Fluke 123 ScopeMeter DSO - sometime last winter I decided to go the scientific way about finding out why the external sub sounded like 5h!te in what is otherwise a decent sounding car system. I generated a sine wave file in 10 Hz increments from 10 Hz to 1.5 KHz, dumped it on an SD card, connected one channel of the DSO to the L rear bookshelf midrange speaker and the other to the trunk-mounted sub, started the DSO capture and pressed play.

It was not pleasant to listen to and many a neighbourhood dog got upset, but I captured the whole thing.

Lo and behold, it turns out there's nothing useful below 350 Hz at the rear bookshelf midrange IIRC, with a boost/cut at various frequencies anywhere from -6 to +8 dB or something along those lines. The trunk-mounted sub was even more non-linear with 18 dB peaks and troughs, all below 500 or 600 Hz. I never tested the front woofers under the dash, but I suspect the response there is equally whacked.

All told, you can sum these up as much as you want, but unless you have a DSP-based parametric EQ just for the bass, a summing device on its own is not going to do anything even remotely useful as far as fidelity is concerned because you'll still end up with a signal that's anything but linear.

FYI, the sub and amp that I wanted to use are a JL Audio 10W7-3 (in a proper 1.25 cu. ft. MDF enclosure with internal bracing), driven by a Clarion XH7110 monoblock (lots of built-in LF adjustment potential) - basically the best sub and amp I could find when I bought them some four years ago. Spent the entire weekend listening and tweaking the amp filter settings, and at the end decided that the C63 simply sounded better without it. You could certainly get a lot of half-decent bass if SPL is all you're after, but I couldn't get it to sound tight and natural no matter what.

bhamg

Some good info here. But, I totally disagree with the bolded. Excluding my own I've tuned subs in 3 C-Classes by ear after they've come out of professional installs and the owner (friend or relative) has been dissatisfied with the results. I ask for 4 CD's that are representative of what the owner listens to, set whatever controls there are at midpoint and go to work. It's not particularly difficult work and in every case there's been a substantial improvement over the bass in the OE/OE HK system. Obviously YMMV but I would certainly encourage anyone who likes music and finds the bass lacking to give it a shot. IMO it's well worth throwing a few $$$ at.

Diabolis

While I certainly agree that the bass in the OEM HK LOGIC7 system leaves a little bit of bottom end and control to be desired, the problem that I had in the C63 with the "4 CD" approach if you will is that of the 4 I could get 2 to sound great, 1 would be OK but the last one IMHO pretty bad, whereas in all my other cars (all of which had a non-DSP system) I could get all 4 to sound very good. While there are definite benefits of tuning the audio system to the car acoustics, IMHO adding an additional sub enclosure and using the existing trunk subwoofer signal to power it didn't result in an improvement.

I should note that I listen to everything from classical to melodic death metal, and setting up the extra sub to sound good with U2 or The Cure made recordings of Gregorian chants sound extremely unnatural in the low end, which is something I've never encountered before. That's what really bugged me.

avery.whss

people actually listen to music in their c63s?

AMG893

Not sure if this may assist you? Very basic. No where near the level your doing....
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...tall-pics.html

changster

Thanks for this guys... you've been a massive help!!

Sub and amp gets installed tomorrow. Dealer insists the amp is table at 2ohms bridged so whatever... they are responsible for it.

I actually added an additional Zapco 150.4 amplifier to power the existing front end speakers. That way they can tune the front stage with the DSP/summing device as well. I flat out told them that I liked the way stock sounds up front, that if it is not better I'm returning the front end back to stock. I decided to do this before buying front component speakers because I want to know if DSP actually works. If it 1) lifts the soundstage 2) improves imaging I will be shocked. I'm not a true believer in DSP yet (but my last system was 15 years ago) so it really depends on the person tuning it.

At minimum I will have a new JL 13.5" Tw5 subwoofer using the stock front end. At maximum I love the DSP and what it did to the stock front speakers, that I will buy component speakers to replace the factory ones.

Thanks again!! Knock on wood for success. I find many times OEM is just better designed and better balanced. I really want some thumpin bass though.

changster

This is my cruiser/family car/pimp mobile.

My rape machine is the Alpha 12 GTR.

Autosport7

I can not get over the amount of prudent information in this thread!
You literally have to be a an Audio Engineer to understand half of it, all gibberish to me as I am intellectually challenged when it comes to audio. Nice to see such a well diversified group of people on this forum who are able to help when one is in need!

Great Thread - Sticky

changster

Guys here is a quick update. I have installed my DSP and 2 class A/B amps inside the spare tire well. However, I'm running into overheat problems with the amps shutting down. Does anyone have a solution to this specifically for this car? I think it is exacerbated by the fact that there is a foam cover that almost acts like an insulator. I really wanted class A/B amps which obviously runs hotter than class D amps. Maybe that was a bad decision.

Pic here:


Other than that, the sound is FANTASTIC when not overheating. I actually bought front components which is powered by the 150 watt x 4 amp. It's run actively and controlled by the DSP. It was tuned by a 30+ year IASCA judge veteran. I really have to say... in cars, DSP has really changed the game versus my last system 15 years ago. It vastly raises the sound stage, improves imagine, etc. I remember back in the day to get a higher sound stage you have to mount components into the kicker panels. This DSP is just amazing.

The single 13TW5 sub is pretty good. It is balanced versus the front. I wouldn't say it's earth shatter bass but does its job well. The space savings is a huge plus. The Truck Powerwedge 13TW5v2 is a perfect fit against the rear seats. I still have a lot of room for cargo. The only downside is you have to remove the "tarp/visor/net" bar (remember, I have an estate) which normally you can pull over your trunk so outside people can't see what's inside. If you don't remove this bar, it sits more forward in the trunk which wastes a lot more space.

Thanks for any help on the overheating issue. I really hope I don't have to run Class D amps. Is there any way to solve this?