Razzy

I've done a search and looked through the relavant threads. This noise seems prevalant. Now I will try and take the car in to the dealer ASAP, but in the mean time I wanted to know if it could be related to a Eurocharged tune I got last month. I did not notice any ticking prior to the tune and over the past couple weeks noticed. Not sure if it has any relavance to the tune.

Any FL C63 P31 owners have the dreaded ticking noise? And if so, what was the "issue" and "fix".

UPDATED August 22, 2014: Went to my local MB dealer. Spoke to the shop foreman about my ticking noise. He said these cars make more engine noise and could be due to lifters. My oil level is right on so it's not like I'm low. The ticking noise that happens once I park the car and turn it off is from underside of the car near in the rear. Now it could be the differential but he said that the exhaust is expanding and contracting so I'm hearing a clicking noise due to that as well.

None the less I have an appointment next Monday to take the car. Will see what comes of it.

VaclavSV

Is the ticking from the engine, diff, exhaust?

shivsiddh

video of the noise?

Razzy

The noise is coming from the front of the car. So the engine bay.

BrabusNYC

How many miles have you put on the car? Might need some oils since these cars burn a lot.

Razzy

The car has 51,000 kms. I just bought is a month and a half ago. I checked oil level. Seems right on. Could MAYBE put more in but it's not as if it's low or needed.

What does this thing take? 5w40?

BrabusNYC

Synthetic. I usually just stop by the dealer and they add a quart or two if needed.

Monky

Mine get's really tappy when it's not filled right up, as said these cars drink oil, I can do a liter in about 20 laps of a race circuit lol. Then you can hear it's all tappy, I check oil, level is at bottom of red tabs, put a liter in, ahhhhh noise gone. Take a picture of your dipstick for us after reading level on flat surface and leaving engine oil to settle.

Personally I would put 5w40 in fully syn to MB spec 229.5 or whatever it is, stay away from that 0w40 Mobil 1 stuff, just my 2 cents, but its like water when it gets hot lol. Guess depends how you drive, if only road sure then 0w40 is fine, but mine drinks it like a fish and we are colder over here as well. I've just put 5w40 Motul 8100 in and engine is much quieter

If in doubt, post a video of the engine running like I just did, and a picture of your dipstick after checking it won't hurt to do so

Diabolis

The Mobil1 0W40 is *at least* as thick as the 5W40 Formula M at operating temperature if not even marginally thicker (but it is thinner when cold, which means it gets to critical engine parts quicker at startup and thus results in less engine wear), plus it's a better oil for the M156 engine because of the better anti-wear additive package.

If you're going to bash something, at least try to get your facts straight. Yes, your car will go through slightly more 0W40 than 5W40 because it is thinner at startup, but if you're consuming more than a liter every two thousand kilometers or so, you have other engine issues that you're only masking with the thicker oil. The Mobil1 0W40 is still the only BEVO approved 229.5 oil for the M156 in North America. It is also what the AMG Driving Acedemy runs in all of their cars that call for 229.5 oil, not to mention it's factory fill on Porsches, Nissan GT-Rs and a bunch of other high-performance cars. The Formula M 5W40 on the other hand is more environmentally friendy than the 0W40 because of the lower sulfated ash, but not as good for your motor in every other way.

Razzy

Thanks for the replies guys. The oil dipstick reading was at the middle marker.

I should add some, now the question is, which one? I see the debate rages on whether it's 0w40 or 5w40. Mobil 1 or will another company suffice?

I turned the car on yesterday hoping to take some sound and video but there was no ticking noise...

Monky

If your going to bash my post at least read it properly

I didn't mention 5w40 Mobil Formula, I said Motul 8100 5w40 which is 229.5 Mercedes approved, I understand oil viscosity

Oil's differ across the board, a 5w40 in one oil is not necessarily the same as another brand in 5w40, yes the numbers are the same but they can differ widely.

I'm just basing it on my own personal experience with the M156. Opie oils and I both realised that Mobil 1 regardless of number seems to be quite a thin oil compared to other brands with the same viscosity.

With 0w40 Mobil 1 my car would go into limp mode on the track after a few laps due to excessive oil temperature, it would burn it quickly, and when leaving the car for over 5 days the lifters would be really noisy on start up. I switched to MOTUL 8100 5w40, which despite being the same oil viscosity at operating temp, seems to withstand the heat much better in my experience.

I now don't get any lifter noise on start-up when leaving the car for a prolonged period, which lets be honest, a lot of owners have complained about so it's not like I have a bad egg or anything this is a common problem, and I don't burn anywhere near half as much (as I found last night at an evening track day). It also doesn't go into limp mode any more, I also removed the grill, but doubt this was the sole cause. So on the whole, it withstands the inherent heat that the M156 is famous for producing, more stable oil temperatures, less limp mode action = lower excessive temperatures + protection for the engine, if this wasn't the case, it would go into limp mode.

I know Mobil 1 is the "official brand" for Mercedes so it's always going to be hard to the majority to use anything else, hell Mobil 1 make millions from this partnership so they market the brand pretty strongly, but in my experience it's not suitable for my application so just passing this experience on. I don't think the OP needs to use it, he probably just needs to top the oil up, but I found it better for my application. That lifter noise after leaving the car for a week is horrible and I've seen so many posts about it, that is now non existent in my case. I see from your previous posts you mention you are an engineer, so you no doubt understand where I am coming from, not insulting your knowledge etc, just stating my case

You can see a video here of my car continuously going into limp mode, okay I like to go sideways all the time which inherently gets things pretty hot due to restricted airflow, but my using of Motul has now cured this problem.


Re Porsche's & GTR's running this oil, they don't have 6.2L engines so not comparable OP sounds like you just need a top up. Did you not hear the ticking noise on cold startup when you tried to make a vid? Try getting the engine up to temperature properly by driving it and see if it comes back, if so just top it up. If your running Mobil 1 0w40 just use that & you'll be fine. Mine was fine on the road no issue at all apart from when leaving the car for days/weeks, started to see bigger problems when I really drove the car hard on track

Monky

These guys also found the same issue with Mobil 1:

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...l-1-again.html

Like someone states, for some easy street driving, probably fine, but for anyone who drives hard like me, it's not suitable for consistent oil temps. I want the best I can give my car. Saying that lifters were still noisy when leaving the car a while with Mobil 1 0w40 so for this alone I wouldn't use it but each to there own I guess Maybe the Mobil 1 "0" weight is too thin causing it to bleed off the lifters when sitting for a prolonged period?

Diabolis

My apologies for assuming you were talking about the Mobil 1 Formual M 5W40. But - I am am still going to have to burst your bubble here.

Tech specs - MOTUL 8100 X-cess 5W-40: https://www.motul.com/system/product...pdf?1389027113

Tech specs - Mobil 1 0W40: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...l_1_0W-40.aspx# (click on Tech Details tab)

Of course, the Motul is thicker as expected, so it doesn't drain as quickly from the valve lifters as the Mobil 1. Seeing as you are basing most of your conclusions on the valve lifter ticking noise at startup, you would achieve even better results with 15W50 oil.

Now, if you look at the other relevant specs between the two, you will notice that the Mobil 1 has a better VI, TBN and most importantly, better HTHS viscosity (shear strength). As for your car going into limp mode sooner with the Mobil 1 0W40 than with the MOTUL, I've got some bad news for you there too. The oil temp pickup sensor is somewhere on the oil return line. The sensor measures the temperature of the oil that is circulating through the crank case and the oil cooler, NOT at various individual points throughout the engine itself - some of which heat up the oil in their immediate vicinity to a much higher temperature that what the sensor reads. In essence, the oil not only lubricates but also acts as the primary means of cooling these parts. In the case of the Mobil 1 0W40, the oil flows better and circulates more and thus removes more heat from these engine parts that create hot spots, resulting in the higher oil temperature you see on your oil temp gauge. In the case of the thicker Motul, the oil doesn't flow as easily and doesn't remove as much heat from the engine hot spots. You thus read a lower overall oil temperature and think that your oil is making your car run cooler or better, while in fact the opposite is true - the localized hot spots are even hotter and the overheated oil provides even less protection leading to excessive wear and premature component failure.


As for the reference to the other thread you linked in your last post, I suggest you read the entire thread - in particular post #10 and onwards - not just the title and the first post of another misguided gentleman like yourself.

I've been around race shops and rebuilding race engines and I have done my own fair share of beating them up on a race track probably for longer than you've been alive. Take everything that you read on the Internet - my own posts included - with a grain of salt, and try not to jump to conclusions based on incomplete evidence, insufficient knowledge of the subject matter and wishful thinking.


P.S. As for the valve lifter noise and premature valvetrain wear, Google "M156 lawsuit". The M156 motor is not without its own share of problems and issues (IMHO they shouldn't have used flat tappets), but that's a different story altogether. While the thicker oil will mask the symptoms for a longer time, if you have valve lifter noise, you have worn lifters/buckets/cams. It's an engine design issue, not a lubrication one. If anything, you need to get the oil pressure up as quickly as posssible at startup to minimize the wear, and the Mobil 1 0W40 is again considerably better in that regard than the Motul 8100 5W40.


P.P.S As for the driving in your video, you might want to think about taking some HPDE lessons instead of just trashing the living daylights out of the car. I can understand if you were trying to drift the rear end just for fun, but you might want to work on trying to hit an apex every once in a while instead of completely overdriving it and plowing into every corner. Try driving in S and chances are you won't suffer from the overheating issue nearly as much either. Again, it is a design flaw of the MCT-equipped cars, but your driving is by far the largest contributing factor to the problem.

Diabolis

Sorry for the thread hijack, but while I'm on the subject of valvetrain wear - does anyone know if the M156 tappets and cams were replaced with the M159 parts at some point in time in new (factory assembled) engines? The M156 part numbers are now superseded by the M159 (SLS) part numbers and that's what MB is putting in on all M156 engine rebuilds. Just wondering if these were changed in some of the newer M156 engines or if it's only a service replacement...

Razzy

I believe in my manual it says to use Mercedes approved 5W40. Can anyone confirm?

Diabolis

Assuming that you have a C63 with an M156 engine, all manuals I've ever seen as well as BEVO specify 0W40 or 5W40, 229.5 spec worldwide (except Western Europe), or 229.5, 229.51 or 229.52 spec in Western Europe only.

Razzy

I'm in Canada, so either 0w40 or 5w40 229.5 spec (whatever that means lol). Thanks!

Monky

@Diabolis - Am I wrong in saying Mobil 1 0W40 is a Grade III base with additives? Where as Motul is a Grade IV or V base? Or did I read wrong? Something about a lawsuit recently where Castrol sued them and that Mobil 1 wasn't a "true" synthetic oil as it were? If this is the case, over prolonged use, this oil would have far more molecular break down meaning it could actually cause more damage than good unless frequently changed, or no? If this is the case, the M1 has better stats on paper, over time though, not so sure. Will await your explanation on this.

I appreciate your comments and explanation on the oil temp sensor location that was interesting to know, as mentioned I did remove my grills top and bottom so I'm thinking this was a large contributing factor (and my driving lol). Regardless I will stick with my 5W40 choice and recommendation from Oil man & AMG.

Talking just about the lifters, if the M156 has inherent issues with ticking lifters and excessive bleed off, why would you not want to use a oil that prevents this? If you can hear metal on metal noises after leaving the car, this is causing huge friction and is not good for the lifters. Mercedes have signed a multi million dollar contract with Mobil 1, but since this contract, we have discovered this issue so I can only see it wise to choose a slightly thicker start up viscosity oil, hell Mercedes are not going to say this, they have a contract to adhere to, but they also haven't emitted to the shortfalls of the M156, so I say it's good to take matters into your own hands.

The flow rate of a 0W and 5W at start up is milliseconds in difference, you are not going to get abnormal ware or engine failures from using it you are exaggerating the differences a little I think. Ignoring the lifters the Motul is still Mercedes approved over here, I am not going to see premature ware on the remaining engine components by using it otherwise Mercedes wouldn't recommend it. I can't prove my findings without an oil analysis, but I can hear that the engine is noticeably less noisy all round with less friction, on cold and warm, and it's not burning off as quick. My car is the facelift later engine, which I thought came with upgraded parts, so I don't think it has lifter issues. The noise in my last video was an injector clicking not a lifter noise. I only get lifter noise when leaving the car for a week, now with 5w40, I do not.

I'm going to see how I fare with the 5w40, Mercedes world (home of Mercedes F1) where they also have the AMG experience run 5W40 Petronas, they have to use Petronas due to sponsor obligation, but I spoke with the techs the other day who looks after the AMG cars. If 5W40 is suitable for them, it suits me just fine! I may even consider using the Motul 300V 0w40 or 5w40, I know this has fewer detergents but again Opie oils state it has more than enough for safe use, just to change it more regularly. The specs on this ester based oil wipe the floor on both 8100 and M1, some people say it's only suitable for very short distance but I have read others who swap it out at 5,000 mile intervals which no issue, I prefer these kind of intervals anyway, I will try it and get some tests done just for interested parties.

And I'm okay re driving lessons thanks for your diplomatic words you cheeky bugger this was a charity day for Soldiers with disabilities, I drifted for there entertainment and entertain I did. My front tires were shot before I got to the track hence the massive understeer and plowing past the corners, but after 4-5 laps started to manage them well and became smooth. Didn't want to put new ones on as would have destroyed them, and my car has no LSD, so it's going to be a little unpredictable. I do the British Drift Championship here in England, so people like to see me going sideways in the C63, it's a kinda given thing, and in a 40k car, hilarious Like to think I have more car control than most but I'm still very inexperienced and young, lot's to learn though I think you would like to have a go at this, this is my other monster:


but just in case here is another charity video where I hit some apex's just for you, and also did some slides for fun, subscribe to my channel if you want, you can advise me along the way, deffo interested to learn more

Diabolis

Mobil 1 is a pure synthetic Group 4 oil, made from chemically synthesized base stock. Castrol Syntec on the other hand is a Group 3 oil made by hydrocracking dinosaur juice. You've got most of the details right, but the two comepanies mixed up. AFAIK Exxon sued Castrol for claiming thath Syntec was a sythetic oil when it fact it isn't made from a pure synthetic base stock; what it came down to was the definition of the word synthetic, and Castrol was allowed to claim that their Syntec brand is a sythetic oil despite the fact that it is made from inferior hydrocracked petroleum base stock.

The lubrication requirements of a race car engine are very different from the requrements of a daily driver engine. This also applies when the same engine is used for the two different applications if you will. In the race car engine, you primarily want higher viscosity oil with the best anti-wear and film shear strength, and don't need to worrry about the other properties. You are going to change the oil after every race or two at the most, you are always going to start the car at ambent temperatures of 10 deg C or higher and you're going to run the oil hot enough that any water condensation in the crank case will fully evaporate. On the other had, in a street car that you drive year-round for going to and from the office and grocery store and where you cange the oil once or twoice a year, you do have other things to worry about. If you drive short distances where the oil doesn't always fully heat up and stay around the 100 deg C mark long enough for the water to evaporate from the crank case, it turns the oil acidic - and we all know how metals react with acid. If you live in Canada where I do and you drive your C63 year-round and during the winter months you have to start the eingine at -35 deg C, that 0W- vs. 5W- oil is indeed much more important in terms of how quickly it gets to yoru engine bits. And, the oil has to last much longer because you're not going to change it every month like you would on your track car (I used to change mine and the brake fluid every two track weekends).

The downside of the higher anti-wear additives and viscosity in oils is the environmental impact and fuel economy respectively. The high zinc and phosphorus additive oils are not very catalytic converter and thus emmissions friendly. While they do provide better engine protection, they shorten the life span of the catalytic converters. Also, the higher the viscosity of the oil, the higher the frictional losses inside the engine and thus fuel economy. It's the very reason why car manufacturers are now also switching to forced induction engines. In order for them to be able to appear environmentally responsible to agencies like the EPA, they need to demonstrate fuel efficiency and environmental impact improvements, and using thinner oil with less additives is one of the ways to accomplish that. Furthermore, none of the car manufacturers care that your engine is now only going to last 10 years instead of 25 or more. The longer the car lasts, the fewer new cars they sell. For as long as the car makes it through the warranty period without costly repairs, it's a win-win for the manufacturers.

Back to the issue of valve-train noise in the M156... ticking/clacking after a cold start when the engine has been sitting for a number of days is because all of the oil has drained from the tappets. Thicker oil drains more slowly, so it takes longer to drain from them than with thinner oil. In this regard (bleed-off) you are 100% correct that the Motul 5W40 is better than the Mobil 1 0W40. It does drain more slowly, and if you only start the car once a week or so, you'll get less bleed-off and noise than with the Mobil 1. That, however, is where things start to get a little more complicated. On a "normal-use" street vehicle, 90% of the engine wear occurs in the first 30 secons after startup, and the 0W40 Mobil 1 is going to get to those same tappets a lot quicker than the Motul. Seeing as you mentioned MB approval, I am again assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that you're again talking about Motul 8100, not the racing 300V formulations.

Now, the Motul 8100 5W40 has to meet EURO IV or V emission standards, which call for ACEA C3 (HTHS viscosity > 3.5 mPa.s, reduced sulfated ash (<0.8%), phosphorus (0.07-0.09%) and has to be compatible with Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF)). It has a HTHS of 3.6 mPa.s, <0.8% sulfated ash that controls the oil acidity and a phosphorus content between 700 and 900 ppm (can't find specs for it anywhere) but lets assume it's the maximum allowable 900 ppm. In comarison, the Mobil 1 0W40 has a HTHS of 3.8 mPa.s, 1.1% sulfated ash and a prosphorus content of 1,000 ppm. Aside from bleed-off, it is a better oil for the engine in all other regards - film strength, wear protection and control of oil acidity. Which one do you think is is better for your engine?

It's the same thing as the Mobil 1 Formula M 5W40. It meets MB 229.51 spec, with is the diesel DPF spec that is now also being used in gasoline engines where low sulphur fuels are the norm. In the rest of the world (North America included) where the gasoline is not quite as clean as what you'd get from your fuel pumps in England, the 229.5 oil spec is still THE ONLY ONE THAT'S APPROVED BY MB FOR USE IN THE M156. Our "preserve the environment" regulations have not evolved quite at the same pace as those in Western Europe, we still have crappier fuel and more garbage to neutralize, and as a result the oil that we use has to be able to withstand more abuse.

I am not a Mobil 1 fanboy - I am merely looking at the two respective spec sheets. If you are driving your car on the track, you're already using it in an "unapproved" fashion. You've already voided your warranty (well, you would have in this country), so you might as well go all the way and get a better unapproved oil, with much higher zinc / phosphorus (ZDDP) levels and film shear strength. I run Mobil 1 15W50 in my track car - the HTHS is 4.5, phosphorus content is at least 1,200 ppm and zinc 1,200 - 1,300 ppm. Hell, if you want the best multi-grade oil for track use, get some MOTUL 300V Le Mans 20W60. It's pretty much the ultimate in terms of engine protection. The MOTUL 300V series is ester-based (Group 5) and has the some of the best anti-wear additives on the planet. Unfortunately - it is not approved by Mercedes for the M156 engine. If you do want to run a MB approved oil, the Mobil 1 0W40 is a better choice than the MOTUL 8100 5W40 in all aspects except bleed-off. ANY 229.5 SPEC OIL IS BETTER FOR THE M156 ENGINE THAN ANY 229.51 or 229.51 SPEC OIL. It is NOT better for the catalytic converters or for the planet.

Formula 1 cars usually run specially formulated, 60-weight oils that are pumped in hot but their exact composition depends on whether it's for qualifying or race use, anticipated temperatures for the specific track. etc. so it has no bearing on street vehicles.

If you have valve-train noise on the C63 (ticking/clacking) not only after the car has been sitting for a few days but at other times as well and you're running ANY MB approved oil for your motor, you have mechnical problems - you either can't get the oil pressure up or there's too much wear on the lobes/buckets/tappets. Period. The thicker oil will give you higher oil pressures but you're just masking the symptoms. Some engine valvetrain components are already worn out.

As for the whole driving skills part - if we can agree that drifting around a corner is not the fastest way around the corner, then we have no argument whatsoever and I apogize for my earlier comment. You are certainly much better at drifting than I am (or ever will be), and you driving skills in the second video are much improved over the original of a few days ago. I may be able to make it around the same racetrack in the same car a tenth of a secong faster than you did, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as spectacular. And, hats off to you for doing the charity runs. I did the same thing for kids with cancer a few years ago (am a survivor myself). Knowing that you've put a smile on someone else's face and at least temporarily allowed them to enjoy something that they normally cound't is absolutely wonderful. Cheers!

Razzy

UPDATED August 22, 2014: Went to my local MB dealer. Spoke to the shop foreman about my ticking noise. He said these cars make more engine noise and could be due to lifters. My oil level is right on so it's not like I'm low. The ticking noise that happens once I park the car and turn it off is from underside of the car near in the rear. Now it could be the differential but he said that the exhaust is expanding and contracting so I'm hearing a clicking noise due to that as well.

None the less I have an appointment next Monday to take the car. Will see what comes of it.

Razzy

You are a true badass!

Diabolis

If you hear the ticking AFTER you turn the car off, it is very likely either the exhaust or the brakes cooling off (likely exhaust if it;s coming from the rear). Have alook at how far your tailpipe tips stick out past the diffuser when the car is hot and how much farther in they sit when the engine is cold. It's just the metal contracting and perfectly normal.

As for the lifters, if you do have parts of your valvetrain replaced, make sure you also get the M159 SLS buckets put in (whether it's under warranty or not), which are not prone to bleed-off. MB here does list them as superseding the M156 buckets for valvetrain repair jobs, but it doesn't hurt to tell your SA that you know about it and that you want the updated design in your motor.

Good luck - hope the news is good!

Razzy

thanks for your help and fantastic information! Will keep you guys in the loop once I take her in. The car is under warranty.

rmt52

it's funny I've seen this 0w40-5w40 discussion numerous times on this forum, I had an oil change done by an mbusa flagship facility (not a dealer) and interestingly they filled it with 5w40.

Merc63

AMG says to use 5w40 in these engines.

0w40 is too thin and bleeds out of the lifters easier over time causing more lifter wear from increased cam to lifter clearance on start up. That is the tapping clicking noise you hear on start up. Lifters don't last forever and can become noisy over time.