Looking to get a tune.. Any recommendations?
03-25-2015, 02:56 PM
#51
Oh - you mean the warranty that includes the follwing paragraph (my empahsis on the last sentence)?
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY:
IN NO EVENT SHALL EUROCHARGED BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, CONSEQUENTIAL OR ANY OTHER DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, WHETHER IN ACTION OR UNDER CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE. Under no circumstance, including, but not limited to, negligence, shall Eurocharged be liable for any damages that result from the use of, or inability to use, the information, materials or products contained in or purchased. Further, Eurocharged shall have no liability or responsibility for any delay in the delivery, installation or use of the products, as well as the service life of the products, performance, applicability for the use intended, proper installation, or the accuracy of information provided. Eurocharged will not be responsible for lost or stolen packages, nor damage caused by our products to other parts on the vehicle.
And, please tell us how the C63BS is detuned from the factory?
As someone on the board pointed out earlier, the BS even has a different engine block compared to the other x63 models where every pair of cylinders in the V have their own cavity to assist the opposing cylinder to move faster by creating a pressure differential that has nowhere else to go except to oppsing cylinder. In other words, it is pretty much a specially designed block to squeeze out the extra 3 HP on top of the 507.
The engines in the other (larger), older x63 cars either had a different exhaust or airbox (I don't remember which) over the P31 C63 that might compansate for the extra 10 hp or so they made over the P31 C63, which btw also ISN'T detuned from the factory although the output numbers are misrepresented for marketing purposes as you correctly pointed out (there is a lot of evidence that indicates the P31 puts out the same power as the 507 but none to the contrary). So, while a tune may be a somewhat viable option for a detuned non-P31 car - and even that raises questions about engine longevity seeing as it doesn't have the lighter and stronger forged engine internals that minimize reciprocating mass - there is no way that you can tune any given engine that is not detuned on purpose from the factory to give you more power without sacrificing something else.
LIMITATION OF LIABILITY:
IN NO EVENT SHALL EUROCHARGED BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, CONSEQUENTIAL OR ANY OTHER DAMAGES WHATSOEVER, WHETHER IN ACTION OR UNDER CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE. Under no circumstance, including, but not limited to, negligence, shall Eurocharged be liable for any damages that result from the use of, or inability to use, the information, materials or products contained in or purchased. Further, Eurocharged shall have no liability or responsibility for any delay in the delivery, installation or use of the products, as well as the service life of the products, performance, applicability for the use intended, proper installation, or the accuracy of information provided. Eurocharged will not be responsible for lost or stolen packages, nor damage caused by our products to other parts on the vehicle.
And, please tell us how the C63BS is detuned from the factory?
As someone on the board pointed out earlier, the BS even has a different engine block compared to the other x63 models where every pair of cylinders in the V have their own cavity to assist the opposing cylinder to move faster by creating a pressure differential that has nowhere else to go except to oppsing cylinder. In other words, it is pretty much a specially designed block to squeeze out the extra 3 HP on top of the 507.
The engines in the other (larger), older x63 cars either had a different exhaust or airbox (I don't remember which) over the P31 C63 that might compansate for the extra 10 hp or so they made over the P31 C63, which btw also ISN'T detuned from the factory although the output numbers are misrepresented for marketing purposes as you correctly pointed out (there is a lot of evidence that indicates the P31 puts out the same power as the 507 but none to the contrary). So, while a tune may be a somewhat viable option for a detuned non-P31 car - and even that raises questions about engine longevity seeing as it doesn't have the lighter and stronger forged engine internals that minimize reciprocating mass - there is no way that you can tune any given engine that is not detuned on purpose from the factory to give you more power without sacrificing something else.
i never mentioned black series at all, what i was saying is for instance the difference between a non p31 and a p31...probably 95% the same engine and internals but some sls parts which are lighter and it has a slightly more aggressive tune.
These engines arent china dolls they aren't going to break by squeezing out a little more power by adjusting some AFR and setting it for 93octane.
Now if you go super aggressive and run that engine really lean to get more power, that's certainly adding more stress. There is always a fine balance.
the black series is a different beast since yes thats made to be a track car and has extra cooling added to it for that benefit, to be perfectly honest I don't know if the engines internals are or not different.
also like you said with the air boxes, thats another way to squeeze some extra reliable power. in NA we get those smaller boxes and the rest of the world has slightly improved ones, is it not safe to go against the engineers and remove the carbon filter and change the box?
MB is also a large company, if their engineers find the engine can sustain for example 600hp at the crank reliably but there is a 5% chance of failure they are naturally going to mitigate risk and get that figure down to a 1% possible failure rate. that is just an off the top of my head example of a possible scenario, if they left a slight amount of performance on the table to add a marginal amount less risk for the average user is it really going to make your engine blowup to go to that level?
I also understand why they would deny warranty to a tuned car if its blown a piston or has fouled up o2 sensors.
to add one small thing, if I had lets say a 507series i probably wouldnt tune it because I feel that model left the factory with good performance and thats actually close to a tuned non-p31/507 series car.
I've already started toying with moving up to the 507 and leaving it stock, or jumping to an e63S
Last edited by rentzington; 03-25-2015 at 03:00 PM.
03-25-2015, 03:00 PM
#52
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Exactly my point - it's called a safety margin. Now, seeing as most people that buy your tunes also don't know what they are doing, and moreover as all pump gas in North America is now so crappy since the 10% Ethanol content was manded that every single refinery has retooled their production to make the cheapest, dirtiest and crappiest 85-86 octane gas gas they can get away with and rely solely on water-hungry Ethanol to bring up the octane rating to the bare minimums, are you in fact sayign that, say, you tune the car for 94 octane by advancing the timing and if the stuff that comes out of the pump happens to be 92 the person with your tune is going to have a problem?
Gents - I have absolutely nothing against tuning, and furthermore I am aware that you are indeed one of the best companies to deal with when it comes to issues, service and follow-through. My only claim is that you can't get more power without either sacrificing that "granny" safety margin, or running the engine harder at the expense of longevity. It has to come from SOMEWHERE.
03-25-2015, 03:15 PM
#53
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,412
Received 1,886 Likes
on
1,323 Posts
2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
Exactly my point - it's called a safety margin. Now, seeing as most people that buy your tunes also don't know what they are doing, and moreover as all pump gas in North America is now so crappy since the 10% Ethanol content was manded that every single refinery has retooled their production to make the cheapest, dirtiest and crappiest 85-86 octane gas gas they can get away with and rely solely on water-hungry Ethanol to bring up the octane rating to the bare minimums, are you in fact sayign that, say, you tune the car for 94 octane by advancing the timing and if the stuff that comes out of the pump happens to be 92 the person with your tune is going to have a problem?
Gents - I have absolutely nothing against tuning, and furthermore I am aware that you are indeed one of the best companies to deal with when it comes to issues, service and follow-through. My only claim is that you can't get more power without either sacrificing that "granny" safety margin, or running the engine harder at the expense of longevity. It has to come from SOMEWHERE.
Gents - I have absolutely nothing against tuning, and furthermore I am aware that you are indeed one of the best companies to deal with when it comes to issues, service and follow-through. My only claim is that you can't get more power without either sacrificing that "granny" safety margin, or running the engine harder at the expense of longevity. It has to come from SOMEWHERE.
Ain't nothing for free in this world, not even ponies. There's a price for it all. I'm not against tunes either but many take personal offense to the reality check that if you tune, you jeopardize the warranty on a 'spensive car and also jeopardize the life of the product
Is the money spent and the net enjoyment at the cost of this jeopardy worth it to many? ... Heck yeah. But try and claim otherwise ... It's just speculation at best and your opinion at worst
03-25-2015, 03:19 PM
#54
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
i never mentioned black series at all, what i was saying is for instance the difference between a non p31 and a p31...probably 95% the same engine and internals but some sls parts which are lighter and it has a slightly more aggressive tune.
These engines arent china dolls they aren't going to break by squeezing out a little more power by adjusting some AFR and setting it for 93octane.
Now if you go super aggressive and run that engine really lean to get more power, that's certainly adding more stress. There is always a fine balance.
the black series is a different beast since yes thats made to be a track car and has extra cooling added to it for that benefit, to be perfectly honest I don't know if the engines internals are or not different.
also like you said with the air boxes, thats another way to squeeze some extra reliable power. in NA we get those smaller boxes and the rest of the world has slightly improved ones, is it not safe to go against the engineers and remove the carbon filter and change the box?
MB is also a large company, if their engineers find the engine can sustain for example 600hp at the crank reliably but there is a 5% chance of failure they are naturally going to mitigate risk and get that figure down to a 1% possible failure rate. that is just an off the top of my head example of a possible scenario, if they left a slight amount of performance on the table to add a marginal amount less risk for the average user is it really going to make your engine blowup to go to that level?
I also understand why they would deny warranty to a tuned car if its blown a piston or has fouled up o2 sensors.
to add one small thing, if I had lets say a 507series i probably wouldnt tune it because I feel that model left the factory with good performance and thats actually close to a tuned non-p31/507 series car.
I've already started toying with moving up to the 507 and leaving it stock, or jumping to an e63S
These engines arent china dolls they aren't going to break by squeezing out a little more power by adjusting some AFR and setting it for 93octane.
Now if you go super aggressive and run that engine really lean to get more power, that's certainly adding more stress. There is always a fine balance.
the black series is a different beast since yes thats made to be a track car and has extra cooling added to it for that benefit, to be perfectly honest I don't know if the engines internals are or not different.
also like you said with the air boxes, thats another way to squeeze some extra reliable power. in NA we get those smaller boxes and the rest of the world has slightly improved ones, is it not safe to go against the engineers and remove the carbon filter and change the box?
MB is also a large company, if their engineers find the engine can sustain for example 600hp at the crank reliably but there is a 5% chance of failure they are naturally going to mitigate risk and get that figure down to a 1% possible failure rate. that is just an off the top of my head example of a possible scenario, if they left a slight amount of performance on the table to add a marginal amount less risk for the average user is it really going to make your engine blowup to go to that level?
I also understand why they would deny warranty to a tuned car if its blown a piston or has fouled up o2 sensors.
to add one small thing, if I had lets say a 507series i probably wouldnt tune it because I feel that model left the factory with good performance and thats actually close to a tuned non-p31/507 series car.
I've already started toying with moving up to the 507 and leaving it stock, or jumping to an e63S
Those were exactly the very same points I was trying to make, my friend.
I am all in favour of tuning an engine for a specific setup and have been doing so for 15 years (blowing up a motor or three in the process). Unless you also change some other part of the engine (i.e. freer-flowing airboxes or exhaust) OR the engine is artificually detuned the way iot is on the non-P31 cars, the only way you can get more power out of it is by runnign it harder or with asmaller safety margine (i.e. gas octane as Eurocharged themselves pointed out). If I can get race gas all the time, I'd be the first to line up for a tune and unleash whatever extra power I can - which incidentally I already do on my track rat and can change the tune on the fly depending on what gas I put in it. On an otherwise stock vehicle however that isn't artificially detuned and that gets driven on the street by your average Joe that doesn't know what comes out of the fuel pump, it may or may not be worth the extra risk from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 where a particular engine may prrematurely fail. That is all.
Again, nothign against Eurocharged or any other company in general - as I said earlier, based on what I've read they are certainly one of the most reputable ones out there. It's just that on the track rat I dump the oil every 50 hours, take apart the motor every 500-1000 hours and can get a replacement engie for $2K from a junk yard and swap it in under 20 hours by myself. On a $90K (CAD) C63 that is still under warranty, I tend to be a little more careful and wary.
03-25-2015, 03:25 PM
#55
Those were exactly the very same points I was trying to make, my friend.
I am all in favour of tuning an engine for a specific setup and have been doing so for 15 years (blowing up a motor or three in the process). Unless you also change some other part of the engine (i.e. freer-flowing airboxes or exhaust) OR the engine is artificually detuned the way iot is on the non-P31 cars, the only way you can get more power out of it is by runnign it harder or with asmaller safety margine (i.e. gas octane as Eurocharged themselves pointed out). If I can get race gas all the time, I'd be the first to line up for a tune and unleash whatever extra power I can - which incidentally I already do on my track rat and can change the tune on the fly depending on what gas I put in it. On an otherwise stock vehicle however that isn't artificially detuned and that gets driven on the street by your average Joe that doesn't know what comes out of the fuel pump, it may or may not be worth the extra risk from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 where a particular engine may prrematurely fail. That is all.
Again, nothign against Eurocharged or any other company in general - as I said earlier, based on what I've read they are certainly one of the most reputable ones out there. It's just that on the track rat I dump the oil every 50 hours, take apart the motor every 500-1000 hours and can get a replacement engie for $2K from a junk yard and swap it in under 20 hours by myself. On a $90K (CAD) C63 that is still under warranty, I tend to be a little more careful and wary.
I am all in favour of tuning an engine for a specific setup and have been doing so for 15 years (blowing up a motor or three in the process). Unless you also change some other part of the engine (i.e. freer-flowing airboxes or exhaust) OR the engine is artificually detuned the way iot is on the non-P31 cars, the only way you can get more power out of it is by runnign it harder or with asmaller safety margine (i.e. gas octane as Eurocharged themselves pointed out). If I can get race gas all the time, I'd be the first to line up for a tune and unleash whatever extra power I can - which incidentally I already do on my track rat and can change the tune on the fly depending on what gas I put in it. On an otherwise stock vehicle however that isn't artificially detuned and that gets driven on the street by your average Joe that doesn't know what comes out of the fuel pump, it may or may not be worth the extra risk from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 where a particular engine may prrematurely fail. That is all.
Again, nothign against Eurocharged or any other company in general - as I said earlier, based on what I've read they are certainly one of the most reputable ones out there. It's just that on the track rat I dump the oil every 50 hours, take apart the motor every 500-1000 hours and can get a replacement engie for $2K from a junk yard and swap it in under 20 hours by myself. On a $90K (CAD) C63 that is still under warranty, I tend to be a little more careful and wary.
I think we see eye to eye now, you might be taking that small margin of error in the engine and that would naturally give you a greater margin for error. it doesnt make it dangerous but I think we have the same point.
03-25-2015, 03:28 PM
#56
This guy knows what's up.
Ain't nothing for free in this world, not even ponies. There's a price for it all. I'm not against tunes either but many take personal offense to the reality check that if you tune, you jeopardize the warranty on a 'spensive car and also jeopardize the life of the product
Is the money spent and the net enjoyment at the cost of this jeopardy worth it to many? ... Heck yeah. But try and claim otherwise ... It's just speculation at best and your opinion at worst
Ain't nothing for free in this world, not even ponies. There's a price for it all. I'm not against tunes either but many take personal offense to the reality check that if you tune, you jeopardize the warranty on a 'spensive car and also jeopardize the life of the product
Is the money spent and the net enjoyment at the cost of this jeopardy worth it to many? ... Heck yeah. But try and claim otherwise ... It's just speculation at best and your opinion at worst
03-25-2015, 03:44 PM
#57
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Relocated
Posts: 4,418
Received 381 Likes
on
237 Posts
2010 Irridium Silver MB C63 AMG Sedan
Those were exactly the very same points I was trying to make, my friend.
I am all in favour of tuning an engine for a specific setup and have been doing so for 15 years (blowing up a motor or three in the process). Unless you also change some other part of the engine (i.e. freer-flowing airboxes or exhaust) OR the engine is artificually detuned the way iot is on the non-P31 cars, the only way you can get more power out of it is by runnign it harder or with asmaller safety margine (i.e. gas octane as Eurocharged themselves pointed out). If I can get race gas all the time, I'd be the first to line up for a tune and unleash whatever extra power I can - which incidentally I already do on my track rat and can change the tune on the fly depending on what gas I put in it. On an otherwise stock vehicle however that isn't artificially detuned and that gets driven on the street by your average Joe that doesn't know what comes out of the fuel pump, it may or may not be worth the extra risk from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 where a particular engine may prrematurely fail. That is all.
Again, nothign against Eurocharged or any other company in general - as I said earlier, based on what I've read they are certainly one of the most reputable ones out there. It's just that on the track rat I dump the oil every 50 hours, take apart the motor every 500-1000 hours and can get a replacement engie for $2K from a junk yard and swap it in under 20 hours by myself. On a $90K (CAD) C63 that is still under warranty, I tend to be a little more careful and wary.
I am all in favour of tuning an engine for a specific setup and have been doing so for 15 years (blowing up a motor or three in the process). Unless you also change some other part of the engine (i.e. freer-flowing airboxes or exhaust) OR the engine is artificually detuned the way iot is on the non-P31 cars, the only way you can get more power out of it is by runnign it harder or with asmaller safety margine (i.e. gas octane as Eurocharged themselves pointed out). If I can get race gas all the time, I'd be the first to line up for a tune and unleash whatever extra power I can - which incidentally I already do on my track rat and can change the tune on the fly depending on what gas I put in it. On an otherwise stock vehicle however that isn't artificially detuned and that gets driven on the street by your average Joe that doesn't know what comes out of the fuel pump, it may or may not be worth the extra risk from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 where a particular engine may prrematurely fail. That is all.
Again, nothign against Eurocharged or any other company in general - as I said earlier, based on what I've read they are certainly one of the most reputable ones out there. It's just that on the track rat I dump the oil every 50 hours, take apart the motor every 500-1000 hours and can get a replacement engie for $2K from a junk yard and swap it in under 20 hours by myself. On a $90K (CAD) C63 that is still under warranty, I tend to be a little more careful and wary.
1. I'm on a budget
2. I'm no longer in warranty
3. I want the safest so that I can make sure nothing bad happens
...but I want a tune really bad....
These disclaimers make it so moronic. Shows the op is not mature and ready.
You guys said it best.
Last edited by ZephyrAMG; 03-26-2015 at 11:21 AM.
03-25-2015, 04:35 PM
#58
Super Member
Thread Starter
Very, very well said. It's just that when people like this guy make a post and say 3 hilarious disclaimers:
1. Im on a budget
2. I'm no longer in warranty
3. I wan't the safest so that I can make sure nothing bad happens
...but I want a tune really bad....
These disclaimers make it so moronic. Shows the op is not mature and ready.
You guys said it best.
1. Im on a budget
2. I'm no longer in warranty
3. I wan't the safest so that I can make sure nothing bad happens
...but I want a tune really bad....
These disclaimers make it so moronic. Shows the op is not mature and ready.
You guys said it best.
Dont twist what I said..
Guess Im moronic then
Whether you think Im not "mature" or not "ready" doesnt mean sh*t to me... I own this car now with my own money, Im pretty sure Im ready for whatever happens.
03-26-2015, 11:01 AM
#59
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C63 AMG 507
Get a tune.
There is no reason not to get one unless you have a brand new C63 and are terribly scared about the warranty.
Dollar-for-Dollar it is the highest performance upgrade value on M156 C63's. Even on Edition 507's.
I recommend Eurocharged. You can flash back to stock anytime. They run specials for less than $1000 if you're patient.
There is no reason not to get one unless you have a brand new C63 and are terribly scared about the warranty.
Dollar-for-Dollar it is the highest performance upgrade value on M156 C63's. Even on Edition 507's.
I recommend Eurocharged. You can flash back to stock anytime. They run specials for less than $1000 if you're patient.
03-26-2015, 11:56 AM
#60
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Sorry - not even close. A set or R-comp tires wil also run you around $1K and they shave off 4 seconds a lap. A $1K tune does nothing of the sort - in fact, it does the opposite by giving you a more aggressive throttle response, so it actually becomes harder to feed in the power gradually. Another much better value "performance upgrade" under $1K would be a HPDE course for anyone that hasn't had one.
All other things being equal, a tune on a normally-aspirated 500 hp engine that hasn't been artificially detuned form the factory may give you an aditional 15 ponies at best by eating into that "Granny Smith" safety margin. An average car entursiast can feel a 10% power increase; a professional driver may be able to detect a 5% increase. So, on that 507, Nico or Lewis would need to get at least 25 hp to actually feel that the car is faster, whereas you and I would need a 50 hp gain to feel an appreciable difference. What you are feeling is the sharper throttle response, and your brain is interpreting this to mean that the car is now faster. On the other hand, dirty air filters, old spark plugs or for that matter running the A/C or even thicker oil can easily rob you of 15 hp, so I am afraid that your "best-bang-for-your-buck" statement is far from being true.
Yes, you can. By the time you do though, you may have already caused some engine damange, and MB Germany is most certainly able to tell if the ECU has been flashed (even after you put the stock tune back on), which they would certainly look into if any one particular dealership worldwide is asking MB for approval on an expensive in-warranty engine repair or replacement.
03-26-2015, 12:51 PM
#61
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 8,045
Received 2,810 Likes
on
1,664 Posts
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Sorry - not even close. A set or R-comp tires wil also run you around $1K and they shave off 4 seconds a lap. A $1K tune does nothing of the sort - in fact, it does the opposite by giving you a more aggressive throttle response, so it actually becomes harder to feed in the power gradually. Another much better value "performance upgrade" under $1K would be a HPDE course for anyone that hasn't had one.
All other things being equal, a tune on a normally-aspirated 500 hp engine that hasn't been artificially detuned form the factory may give you an aditional 15 ponies at best by eating into that "Granny Smith" safety margin. An average car entursiast can feel a 10% power increase; a professional driver may be able to detect a 5% increase. So, on that 507, Nico or Lewis would need to get at least 25 hp to actually feel that the car is faster, whereas you and I would need a 50 hp gain to feel an appreciable difference. What you are feeling is the sharper throttle response, and your brain is interpreting this to mean that the car is now faster. On the other hand, dirty air filters, old spark plugs or for that matter running the A/C or even thicker oil can easily rob you of 15 hp, so I am afraid that your "best-bang-for-your-buck" statement is far from being true.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 03-26-2015 at 12:54 PM.
03-26-2015, 01:59 PM
#62
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Agree 100% on the HPDE. HP Driving instruction was the best money I ever spent on cars. But comeon now, R-compound tires? That's a ridiculous statement. For 99% of users of these cars, of which 99% are daily-driven, and 99% never see a road course, that's not the case. Not even close. I like R-compound tires as much as anyone, but having to replace them every 3k miles (or less) is not my idea of a "good value" Good value is a one-and-done, permanent enhancement IMO. I know you like to be the resident devils advocate, but let's be serious here, ok?
---
Suspect statement. Yes, the very first things you should do are a good tune-up, with new oil, plugs, and air filters. Then ROW boxes. Then, it's pretty accepted that the next step should be a tune. I saw minimal difference in 1/4 mile times or mph with my Stage 1 EC tune, which is to be expected at 20hp or so on my P31. BUT I did find that the car was much more enjoyable - better throttle response, crisper shifting, etc. 'Higher performance' is not always measured in hp. I agree that a tune is one of the best bang-for-the-bucks with this car. The best? Depends on what you're looking for. For street-driven cars, like this thread seems to be about? Definitely.
---
Suspect statement. Yes, the very first things you should do are a good tune-up, with new oil, plugs, and air filters. Then ROW boxes. Then, it's pretty accepted that the next step should be a tune. I saw minimal difference in 1/4 mile times or mph with my Stage 1 EC tune, which is to be expected at 20hp or so on my P31. BUT I did find that the car was much more enjoyable - better throttle response, crisper shifting, etc. 'Higher performance' is not always measured in hp. I agree that a tune is one of the best bang-for-the-bucks with this car. The best? Depends on what you're looking for. For street-driven cars, like this thread seems to be about? Definitely.
I agree completely with you that R-comps are not for street use under any circumstances except maybe getting to and from the track on a dry, sunny day. I was taking issue with the statement that the tune is the best dollar-for-dollar performance increase you can get on a 507. It depends entirely on whether by performance you are talking about going as fast as you can on a track, or boasting about dyno numbers at the Sunday morning coffee meet. When I talk about car performance, I mean being able to turn faster lap times, but perhaps this is not everyone's definition of performance.
I also agree completely about the tune going on *AFTER* you first change your airboxes. As I have said earlier, once you modify any part of the engine itself, then there indeed may be additional power to be gained by exploiting the advantages of said engine mod. On an otherwise stock and unmolested vehichle though, the extra performance by definition has to come at the expense of either the safety margin or the engine longevity. This is pretty much a taboo topic for discussion, as the large majority of people that have put tunes on their cars have drank the Kool-Aid and need to believe that both the tune is a significant improvement over stock IN OBJECTIVE TERMS and that there IS such thing as a free lunch (or in this case horsepower) and that by retunign the ECU they can get extra power out of thin air without causing any additional stress on the engine or risking premature engine wear or possible damage simply by getting a bad tank of gas somewhere. It just doesn't work that way.
It's not about me being a devil's advoicate - it's about realizing that every mod comes at a risk. What is a good value mod or is tolerable depends on the modification itself and the person that is assuming the risk of said modification. There are mods where the risk is very low (like changing your air filters), and there are also people where the risk - no matter how small or large - is tolerable because of their financial circumstances (like installing an aftermerket supercharger or a nitrous oxide system). I have absolutely no issue with any mod or anyone's risk tolerance level. It is only when I read statements like "it's perfectly safe, best thing ever since sliced bread and you can always put the car back to stock" that a little red light goes off, because your average board user - like the OP who started this tread - obviously has no idea about the risks involved and may think that putting on a tune is just as risky as putting on AMG valve stem caps.
P.S. There is nothign suspect about the earlier statement I made, either in terms of what percentage of power increase is detectable by the "seat of the pants" method or how much power you can lose by running the A/C or worn spark plugs.
Last edited by Diabolis; 03-26-2015 at 02:05 PM.
03-26-2015, 03:45 PM
#63
Super Member
Thread Starter
I agree completely with you that R-comps are not for street use under any circumstances except maybe getting to and from the track on a dry, sunny day. I was taking issue with the statement that the tune is the best dollar-for-dollar performance increase you can get on a 507. It depends entirely on whether by performance you are talking about going as fast as you can on a track, or boasting about dyno numbers at the Sunday morning coffee meet. When I talk about car performance, I mean being able to turn faster lap times, but perhaps this is not everyone's definition of performance.
I also agree completely about the tune going on *AFTER* you first change your airboxes. As I have said earlier, once you modify any part of the engine itself, then there indeed may be additional power to be gained by exploiting the advantages of said engine mod. On an otherwise stock and unmolested vehichle though, the extra performance by definition has to come at the expense of either the safety margin or the engine longevity. This is pretty much a taboo topic for discussion, as the large majority of people that have put tunes on their cars have drank the Kool-Aid and need to believe that both the tune is a significant improvement over stock IN OBJECTIVE TERMS and that there IS such thing as a free lunch (or in this case horsepower) and that by retunign the ECU they can get extra power out of thin air without causing any additional stress on the engine or risking premature engine wear or possible damage simply by getting a bad tank of gas somewhere. It just doesn't work that way.
It's not about me being a devil's advoicate - it's about realizing that every mod comes at a risk. What is a good value mod or is tolerable depends on the modification itself and the person that is assuming the risk of said modification. There are mods where the risk is very low (like changing your air filters), and there are also people where the risk - no matter how small or large - is tolerable because of their financial circumstances (like installing an aftermerket supercharger or a nitrous oxide system). I have absolutely no issue with any mod or anyone's risk tolerance level. It is only when I read statements like "it's perfectly safe, best thing ever since sliced bread and you can always put the car back to stock" that a little red light goes off, because your average board user - like the OP who started this tread - obviously has no idea about the risks involved and may think that putting on a tune is just as risky as putting on AMG valve stem caps.
P.S. There is nothign suspect about the earlier statement I made, either in terms of what percentage of power increase is detectable by the "seat of the pants" method or how much power you can lose by running the A/C or worn spark plugs.
I also agree completely about the tune going on *AFTER* you first change your airboxes. As I have said earlier, once you modify any part of the engine itself, then there indeed may be additional power to be gained by exploiting the advantages of said engine mod. On an otherwise stock and unmolested vehichle though, the extra performance by definition has to come at the expense of either the safety margin or the engine longevity. This is pretty much a taboo topic for discussion, as the large majority of people that have put tunes on their cars have drank the Kool-Aid and need to believe that both the tune is a significant improvement over stock IN OBJECTIVE TERMS and that there IS such thing as a free lunch (or in this case horsepower) and that by retunign the ECU they can get extra power out of thin air without causing any additional stress on the engine or risking premature engine wear or possible damage simply by getting a bad tank of gas somewhere. It just doesn't work that way.
It's not about me being a devil's advoicate - it's about realizing that every mod comes at a risk. What is a good value mod or is tolerable depends on the modification itself and the person that is assuming the risk of said modification. There are mods where the risk is very low (like changing your air filters), and there are also people where the risk - no matter how small or large - is tolerable because of their financial circumstances (like installing an aftermerket supercharger or a nitrous oxide system). I have absolutely no issue with any mod or anyone's risk tolerance level. It is only when I read statements like "it's perfectly safe, best thing ever since sliced bread and you can always put the car back to stock" that a little red light goes off, because your average board user - like the OP who started this tread - obviously has no idea about the risks involved and may think that putting on a tune is just as risky as putting on AMG valve stem caps.
P.S. There is nothign suspect about the earlier statement I made, either in terms of what percentage of power increase is detectable by the "seat of the pants" method or how much power you can lose by running the A/C or worn spark plugs.
03-26-2015, 03:49 PM
#64
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Bro, WTF are you smoking?? You need to go back and read my previous post, better yet, you and ZephyrAMG need to stop running your mouths.. For the 100th time, I was merely asking for a recommendation for tunes. Never once in my posts did I mention anything about not being aware of the risks of a tune because I know the risks just like any other engine mod. I believe you're the one who has no idea, comparing R-compound tires to a tune lol, what are you on?? That sh*t that makes you dumb huh
That sh*t that makes you dumb huhOh, f__k me... here speaks the idiot again.
Don't you have a speshul bus to catch or somethign? Or did your parents forget to pick you up from kindergarten again?
03-26-2015, 03:54 PM
#65
Super Member
Thread Starter
Thats the kind of garbage people used to say in high school tho..
I bet that GLK250 is treating you well huh
03-26-2015, 04:12 PM
#66
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
Actually, as I said before it's the kind of garbage people your age use in kindergaten. High schoolers are usually a little more mature, although there certainly are exceptions (just wait until you get there).
The GLK250 Bluetec is an amazing winter vehicle. It will go places where my Cayenne Turbo has trouble climbing and it costs less than a third to buy and run (my Range Rover was a little better in the off-roading department but it was otherwise a complete piece of $h!t that spent more time at the shop than it did on the road). If anything, you can diss my C63, the two other Porsches I have in addition to the Cayenne, my old Aston, any of my old M3s, M5s, Audis and what not... but the diesel GLK is certainy beyond reproach. Just sayin'.
03-26-2015, 04:21 PM
#67
Super Member
Thread Starter
Actually, as I said before it's the kind of garbage people your age use in kindergaten. High schoolers are usually a little more mature, although there certainly are exceptions (just wait until you get there).
The GLK250 Bluetec is an amazing winter vehicle. It will go places where my Cayenne Turbo has trouble climbing and it costs less than a third to buy and run (my Range Rover was a little better in the off-roading department but it was otherwise a complete piece of $h!t that spent more time at the shop than it did on the road). If anything, you can diss my C63, the two other Porsches I have in addition to the Cayenne, my old Aston, any of my old M3s, M5s, Audis and what not... but the diesel GLK is certainy beyond reproach. Just sayin'.
The GLK250 Bluetec is an amazing winter vehicle. It will go places where my Cayenne Turbo has trouble climbing and it costs less than a third to buy and run (my Range Rover was a little better in the off-roading department but it was otherwise a complete piece of $h!t that spent more time at the shop than it did on the road). If anything, you can diss my C63, the two other Porsches I have in addition to the Cayenne, my old Aston, any of my old M3s, M5s, Audis and what not... but the diesel GLK is certainy beyond reproach. Just sayin'.
No one gives a flyin' f**k about your cars..
I guess Im a kindergarten kid who can afford a C63 then hah
I should be proud of myself, thanks man.
03-26-2015, 04:25 PM
#68
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,684
Received 763 Likes
on
529 Posts
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
<plonk>
So fickle and tender.
Give it up, kid. The sooner you realize that the wall is harder than your head, the better your chances of survival. I am afraid that the brain damage is already permanent, though.
Last edited by Diabolis; 03-26-2015 at 04:28 PM.
03-26-2015, 04:34 PM
#69
Super Member
Thread Starter
Not sure what it is about you that makes you talk the way you do, maybe it's just a Canadian thing, I wouldnt know anything about that since Im from California, a real city in a real country.
03-26-2015, 04:51 PM
#71
Super Member
Thread Starter
03-26-2015, 05:47 PM
#73
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Relocated
Posts: 4,418
Received 381 Likes
on
237 Posts
2010 Irridium Silver MB C63 AMG Sedan
Diabolis, don't even bother with this clown. When someone responds "at least I come from a real city/country", you know he is a 12 year old Internet tough guy...I'm ashamed we even have him in our beautiful state. On behalf of California as a whole, I apologize to you for this idiot...
Last edited by ZephyrAMG; 03-26-2015 at 05:49 PM.
03-26-2015, 06:28 PM
#75
Senior Member
I've come to realize in my short time here that some of the best information and most badass C63's on this site are from Canada. I like to refer to them as "our friends from the north". But what do I know? I live in Ohio, which is far far away from the city of California 
