Celicasaur

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EDIT: For the happy ending to the story with it properly tuned on the dyno - please see:
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...yeah-baby.html

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mr747

i have heard many horror stories about changing cams on the m156

do you have any CEL lights maybe they didnt set the cams properly??

Did you port your heads?? the stocks cams work plenty well with cars making 800hp why did you change them?

i would be returning your car back to stock and returning them back to Kleeman

I also see you dont have a exhaust maybe that is your problem who knows

Celicasaur

Oh really? I thought the only horror story was when Dad tried the SLS cams....but he had joy with the MHP ones.

Funnily enough, I know a guy (apparently the only other person in the UK with Kleemann cams and he got his fitted/tuned from the same place and dyno'd at 533hp on his 2008 C63 with just secondary cats removed. That's around 30hp more than what other C63's get with similar mods.

I didn't get the heads ported and there aren't any CEL's

At the minute the only thing that's on my mind is either the VVT isn't working as it should (how can I even find out for sure though?) or perhaps the car wasn't running all that strong beforehand anyway so maybe it needs some tlc by way of having a carbon clean performed etc? Granted, it's optimistic to expect anything more than a handful of hp from having that done.

chrisridebike8

I thought Dads had luck with the MHP cams AND their ported heads. I'll be honest, I'm not too savvy on aftermarket cams for the M156 but I haven't seen many people use them or gain very much from them, if anything, unless they had heads to support them. IIRC, the heads and cams that Dads had were like $8000+ and he made around 20 whp over his setup he had before.

marioflex

When Weistec build my engine Steve told me that power gains from cams does not worth the money. They just give a few hp. I only heard of JCart and Dad's using it.

Merc63

Cams are a waste of money as you found out. The adjusters already vary all 4 cams, what do you think you're going to gain without increasing lift?? (I assume lift remained the same)

roadtalontsi

I spoke with steve about this as well. He said it can be worth while if i dont mind my car being for track only. At that point i scraped the idea entirely. lol. Considering i can install them myself, the labor would be free. He said the factory cams are really fantastic and hard to beat.

CarHopper

You spent the money on cams before headers? Interesting.

BLKROKT

That's too bad, I was looking forward to seeing if they would make decent power for you. Hope it gets better once the tune is sorted out.

chrisridebike8

I think he did it because he's in the UK and they have visual inspections and whatnot making it difficult to pass smog/MOT there with headers. Cams are hidden and theoretically make more power while still passing inspections.

Celicasaur

Ok, it's running seemingly a lot better than the first day I drove it. The mid-range has especially picked up. Quite why it's taken a couple of days of driving after the tune is beyond me. Either that or I'm in serious denial

I'd say it now feels about the same as before any of the work was carried out, but with a slightly better mid-range and slightly worse top end (ie, I can't feel that surge between 80-95 in third gear above 5000rpm)

My gut tells me that they need more VVT tuning and they will deliver more. I wish i had the software and hardware to tune the car...i'd spent the time myself to get it dialled in just right, but alas that won't happen due to the sheer cost of the tech needed.


For what it's worth, I had a carbon clean performed on the motor yesterday but the butt-dyno can't register any improvement as a result. My air filters haven't been changed since last March and it's done around 10k, but when I change them in a fortnight as part of the vehicle service, I doubt they will make a big enough difference. Also, a set of DPE headers will be with me soon, so if the exhaust system really is an issue for the cams (doubtful), then they will certainly help in many ways.

deadlyvt

What's the specs on the cams do you know? The m156 cams do look pretty tame..... More than likely it sounds like a tuning issue however depends on the cams they could be specd for better mid range than the stockers although that would be pretty odd

Celicasaur

Yep - the stock cams are incredibly tame sir - anybody who understands engine tuning can spot that from a mile off.

I don't have specs on the Kleemanns unfortunately. All I have is this pic of them fitted (yes, not the best quality in terms of angle, but I'm grateful that the engine builder at least sent me this one ) - it's too late to measure the lift at this point, but the duration looks a nice amount longer than stock. But at the same time, it looks far from something like a 300+ degree duration lobe.

ZephyrAMG

At least you have the correct and updated (black) cam bolts

Celicasaur

oh...i had no idea they even were updated. Spooky....

Looking at the cam lobes in the picture above (looks like the left bank), it seems like the exhaust lobe is reasonably close to stock, but the intake one is wildly different.

I spoke to the guy at Kleemann and he told me these cams are designed to make the very top end of the rpm range very aggressive. I can also report that it sounds a lot more thumpy and masculine (a bit like a B7 RS4) when cruising in the middle of the rpm band at speed on the highway

I took it for a solid drive this evening with a couple of friends in the car. We all agreed that the midrange was very meaty vs stock. I'll have a word with Kleemann this week and see what they can suggest/recommend for the top end of the power band. Tbh i'd happily pay for their extortionately priced map if it gains me 30-40hp peak, but I'd be pretty damn pissed if their map didn't make a difference and I was out of pocket by 2k - a money back guarantee to stand by their service is probably what I need right now. I'd even drive to Denmark if they needed me to.

QWKSNKE

So kleeman didn't provide a cam spec sheet with the purchase? Although expensive, you need a tuner that can spend time with it on the dyno and play with all the fuel and timing tables.

Celicasaur

For the sake of updating the thread and future reference, I've had the following done without any real notable difference:

MB service - oil change
Running the latest firmware
Diagnostic showing great health of all sensors and camgears (at least at idle)
Replaced PCV/breather pipe
Removed/cleaned intake manifold
Replaced intake manifold gaskets
Inspected plugs - all showing a great AFR mixture and healthy engine

My next move is to either take a stab on replacing the camgears (on the off chance that they're not retarding/advancing to their full range at high rpm) or just leave it and accept that the car is rubbish. At ~£1500, it's one helluva stab to take though, so I'm not sure how brave I"m feeling after all that I've spent so far this year.

Longtubes and 82mm TB's waiting to go on as well, but I refuse to fit them until this issue is sorted.

Does anybody know if the solenoids that shoot oil into the camgears have a mesh filter/strainer to catch debris? I know on Toyota engines, they have them and can get clogged up, adversely affecting the VVT operation. I wonder if the oil flow from the solenoids might be an area to look at, before further investment into the motor Anybody had a look and had any joy before?

A friend of mine has these on his C63 and his car is handsomely more faster and forceful up top, with primary cats in place and big heavy, horrible wheels. Hmmm....

mr747

Mate take the cams out and put the factory cams back in and see what happens

Then you will know what the problem is

akmatic63

Did you ever get the dyne tune done?

Celicasaur

That's one way I suppose. But I costs £500GBP to do a cam swap. Done twice (Stock back in, then Kleemann back in) it'll cost me £1000GBP. At that point I'd just have wished that I put the money into the car, rather than into labour. Either that, or I should invest in those cam locking tools and then do it myself perhaps


Yep - the tune on the car is a dyno tune. I'm told that the same file used to make 533hp on my friends' C63 was used as the starting point and then it was adapted further.

That being said, I wonder if the marginal improvement that I'm feeling in the car now (probably from replacing the PCV breather) might call for a slight retune. I'll call Eurocharged and see if they can stick it back on the dyno and try to eek out some more power. Another option is the Kleemann tune, which is being offered to me at a big discount, but alas while it's not a custom tune, supposedly it can bring the best out in the cams. Not sure what to believe though.

betrezra

Try a new set of air filters. Car must breath, esp on top end. Gl.

mr747

Buying new cam gears and doing the job is going to cost the same thing

But changing over the cams will confirm what issues you have going on

If you bolt up your standard cams again and you feel the power increase you know what the issue is

Which ever option you take its still gonna be costly

Celicasaur

Well, I guess I'm happy now. The car is feeling and pulling much more smoother and feels very juicy and torquey even at lower rpms now. I'm not sure if it was the re-lubing of the variable intake runners, or the PCV breather replacement, but the car feels great now and the butt-dyno has definitely registered more than a negligible gain. Confirmed this with some tests on the highway yesterday night. Oddly enough, it feels better in C and S mode, but not S+, but who knows....

Seems like it needed a few days to adapt...either that, or I wasn't driving it hard enough last week (I tend to drive sensibly Monday- Friday) to notice any difference.

Safe to say I'm going to get my car booked in at my local Eurocharged workshop again for a retune and hopefully, some good dyno numbers. Fingers crossed guys! Light at the end of the tunnel, or so it seems!

mr747

good luck mate

BLKROKT

Yeah, fingers crossed for you dude