The definitive, incontrovertible list of power add ratings and rankings
08-05-2016, 03:11 PM
#1
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
The definitive, incontrovertible list of power add ratings and rankings
The definitive, incontrovertible list of power add ratings and rankings.
I hate to break it to you boys and girls, but no such list exists. That's not to say I won't answer any questions though, so bear with me.
I always seem to have a couple guys messaging me and saying "but I was told....." or "then why in this video...."
If you're that type of guy, the guy who wants absolute definitive answers to your questions then this post is for you. Not because I begrudge you the questions, I actually don't, but because it occurs to me it has never really been spelled out like this and I'm gonna do it once then from now on I'm sending a link to this. So Im not picking on anyone here, or calling anyone out or being pissy with anyone.
Just trying to let you rest your brain so that you will let me rest mine.
So, first of all, hear me when I say this.....you will NEVER get the same answers to the same questions involving involving hp/speed and models and different brands of tunes, headers, air boxes etc on similar but different cars. EVER. Even when a dyno is involved. For some of you this seems to plague your brain, and you can't shake this loose. I suspect you are accountants (all due respect to accountants but you DO have a hard time with non-concrete answers). On any given Sunday one car/set up may be captured on video/dyno chart out-performing another that it should not beat. The reasons for this are many. Here are just a few, and I guarantee I miss some:
***Even with stock cars, they didn't start out with the exact same horsepower. They are hand built. There are variables.
***Our cars are in different locations. Heat, humidity, altitude all play a part in how a car performs. A turbo/non turbo battle will turn out differently on a hot sea level afternoon than a cool Colorado evening.
"But 604, what about videos of cars racing? They're in the same location and sometimes I see a car that should have 30 more hp losing to a lesser powered car.."
Well, there are other ingredients, such as:
***Fuel quality and octane. Tires. After market aero.
***Driver performance. Kimi Raikkonen in a stock, non-performance pack car is quite likely going to punk me even if I was in a Black Series. And he will yawn doing it. They don't call him the Ice Man for nothing. But even he can blow a shift or hit it in the wrong gear and maybe I win with a set up that shouldn't be able to beat him.
***Weight. Yes, weight. Our cars weigh very close to the same, but a 150 lb guy by himself is probably going to be faster than Tony Soprano and his older, bigger brother with 2 sets of golf clubs and an anvil in the back.
***Settings. Did one guy get caught in Comfort and the other in Sport+? Maybe. We don't know.
***Length of race. Seriously. Even if EVERYTHING else were equal, if you expect a car with ROWS to definitively spank a non ROW car in the space of a 30 second video, you are baked. The power differential is simply not enough to show in a 30 second run.
***If its a track video, it could be as simple as lane selection. One lane is almost always faster than the other. Maybe one guy is on street tires and one is on track tires. Or has incorrect pressure. Or isn't as practiced.
And that's my whole point when it comes to racing videos. We don't know anything other than what we see. We know which car, all things being equal, MIGHT be faster 9 times out of 10. But don't ask me to explain the 10th time. I wasn't there.
"But 604, explain dyno differences then, and why does this guy say one thing and then another guy has a graph that shows something else?".
Easy. Dynos aren't definitive either.
"Huh?"
Car performances on dynos are affected by the same variables that affect cars on the street. Heat. Humidity. Altitude/location. Octane.
But then there are other variables involving the dyno itself. Here are a few:
***Type of dyno. They vary. There are Dynojets, Mustangs, and the occasional Dynapack. Mustangs ALWAYS read lower than Dynojets for example.
***Dyno operator ability. Yes, it matters.
*** Are we even talking the same hp? Crank hp or wheel hp? If wheel hp, the formula used to adjust for drivetrain loss plays a part, which is really just a guess.
****Variables in the dynos themselves. Bear in mind, two dynos of the same brand and the same operator at the same time will give two different readings. Hell, the same car on the same dyno with the same operator will give different readings if done twice.
As I said, we can come up with a general rule of thumb on things, and tell you 9 times out 10, but we cannot explain to you the 10th time. We simply don't have the info required. And sometimes, one car is just cleaner than another. By that I mean, a clean car runs better lol. Sometimes for seemingly no reason a car runs like ****, and sometimes it runs great. Maybe it was clean.
The only way we are going to give you the definitive answers you seek is the following:
Start pulling motors on different models of C63.
Dyno test them for crank horsepower, using the same dyno and same operator in the same location at the same time running on the same fuel.
Find a half dozen of each with very similar horsepower ratings.
Start tuning and modding and dyno testing step by step as you go using the same criteria. Do multiple runs. Even then, you'll never know but you'll come close. Obviously, this will never happen. But even then.... 9 times out 10, it works every time.
Probably a Chevy LS motor would come closest to having had this done with the amount of data out there about those.
At the end of the day, with all the worrying about what's fastest/quickest I can only tell you one thing for sure: it ain't us.
We have a great all round choice - a sporty car, a classy car, a muscle car, a luxury car (to some degree depending on year). But we are not the the fastest, we do not corner the best etc etc. The C63 does a number of things very, very well and has an exceptionally even balance of horsepower to torque, and great, great sound. That's what makes it unique, and so fun to drive. But to refer to another recent thread - we are going to lose to an R8 V10. Unless we are racing to get 3 people and their golf clubs to the course, cos I can do it one trip and he will need 4 or 5. Always a compromise.
So. "Why did that guy in what should be a less powerful car beat the guy in what should be a faster car?"
Beats me. But it appears that he did. S-hit happens. Learn to live with it. Otherwise, get really really really into sliderules and math
Mr Good Will Hunting, cos thats the only place you are going to find true peace of mind.
I hate to break it to you boys and girls, but no such list exists. That's not to say I won't answer any questions though, so bear with me.
I always seem to have a couple guys messaging me and saying "but I was told....." or "then why in this video...."
If you're that type of guy, the guy who wants absolute definitive answers to your questions then this post is for you. Not because I begrudge you the questions, I actually don't, but because it occurs to me it has never really been spelled out like this and I'm gonna do it once then from now on I'm sending a link to this. So Im not picking on anyone here, or calling anyone out or being pissy with anyone.
Just trying to let you rest your brain so that you will let me rest mine.
So, first of all, hear me when I say this.....you will NEVER get the same answers to the same questions involving involving hp/speed and models and different brands of tunes, headers, air boxes etc on similar but different cars. EVER. Even when a dyno is involved. For some of you this seems to plague your brain, and you can't shake this loose. I suspect you are accountants (all due respect to accountants but you DO have a hard time with non-concrete answers). On any given Sunday one car/set up may be captured on video/dyno chart out-performing another that it should not beat. The reasons for this are many. Here are just a few, and I guarantee I miss some:
***Even with stock cars, they didn't start out with the exact same horsepower. They are hand built. There are variables.
***Our cars are in different locations. Heat, humidity, altitude all play a part in how a car performs. A turbo/non turbo battle will turn out differently on a hot sea level afternoon than a cool Colorado evening.
"But 604, what about videos of cars racing? They're in the same location and sometimes I see a car that should have 30 more hp losing to a lesser powered car.."
Well, there are other ingredients, such as:
***Fuel quality and octane. Tires. After market aero.
***Driver performance. Kimi Raikkonen in a stock, non-performance pack car is quite likely going to punk me even if I was in a Black Series. And he will yawn doing it. They don't call him the Ice Man for nothing. But even he can blow a shift or hit it in the wrong gear and maybe I win with a set up that shouldn't be able to beat him.
***Weight. Yes, weight. Our cars weigh very close to the same, but a 150 lb guy by himself is probably going to be faster than Tony Soprano and his older, bigger brother with 2 sets of golf clubs and an anvil in the back.
***Settings. Did one guy get caught in Comfort and the other in Sport+? Maybe. We don't know.
***Length of race. Seriously. Even if EVERYTHING else were equal, if you expect a car with ROWS to definitively spank a non ROW car in the space of a 30 second video, you are baked. The power differential is simply not enough to show in a 30 second run.
***If its a track video, it could be as simple as lane selection. One lane is almost always faster than the other. Maybe one guy is on street tires and one is on track tires. Or has incorrect pressure. Or isn't as practiced.
And that's my whole point when it comes to racing videos. We don't know anything other than what we see. We know which car, all things being equal, MIGHT be faster 9 times out of 10. But don't ask me to explain the 10th time. I wasn't there.
"But 604, explain dyno differences then, and why does this guy say one thing and then another guy has a graph that shows something else?".
Easy. Dynos aren't definitive either.
"Huh?"
Car performances on dynos are affected by the same variables that affect cars on the street. Heat. Humidity. Altitude/location. Octane.
But then there are other variables involving the dyno itself. Here are a few:
***Type of dyno. They vary. There are Dynojets, Mustangs, and the occasional Dynapack. Mustangs ALWAYS read lower than Dynojets for example.
***Dyno operator ability. Yes, it matters.
*** Are we even talking the same hp? Crank hp or wheel hp? If wheel hp, the formula used to adjust for drivetrain loss plays a part, which is really just a guess.
****Variables in the dynos themselves. Bear in mind, two dynos of the same brand and the same operator at the same time will give two different readings. Hell, the same car on the same dyno with the same operator will give different readings if done twice.
As I said, we can come up with a general rule of thumb on things, and tell you 9 times out 10, but we cannot explain to you the 10th time. We simply don't have the info required. And sometimes, one car is just cleaner than another. By that I mean, a clean car runs better lol. Sometimes for seemingly no reason a car runs like ****, and sometimes it runs great. Maybe it was clean.
The only way we are going to give you the definitive answers you seek is the following:
Start pulling motors on different models of C63.
Dyno test them for crank horsepower, using the same dyno and same operator in the same location at the same time running on the same fuel.
Find a half dozen of each with very similar horsepower ratings.
Start tuning and modding and dyno testing step by step as you go using the same criteria. Do multiple runs. Even then, you'll never know but you'll come close. Obviously, this will never happen. But even then.... 9 times out 10, it works every time.
Probably a Chevy LS motor would come closest to having had this done with the amount of data out there about those.
At the end of the day, with all the worrying about what's fastest/quickest I can only tell you one thing for sure: it ain't us.
We have a great all round choice - a sporty car, a classy car, a muscle car, a luxury car (to some degree depending on year). But we are not the the fastest, we do not corner the best etc etc. The C63 does a number of things very, very well and has an exceptionally even balance of horsepower to torque, and great, great sound. That's what makes it unique, and so fun to drive. But to refer to another recent thread - we are going to lose to an R8 V10. Unless we are racing to get 3 people and their golf clubs to the course, cos I can do it one trip and he will need 4 or 5. Always a compromise.
So. "Why did that guy in what should be a less powerful car beat the guy in what should be a faster car?"
Beats me. But it appears that he did. S-hit happens. Learn to live with it. Otherwise, get really really really into sliderules and math
Mr Good Will Hunting, cos thats the only place you are going to find true peace of mind.
Last edited by 604 C63; 08-05-2016 at 03:30 PM.
The following users liked this post:
mthis (08-07-2016)
08-06-2016, 12:43 PM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
125 viewings and not one person has told me how wrong I am about something. Must be a new record for me.
08-06-2016, 01:13 PM
#3
MBWorld Fanatic!
I agree with you. No matter what car, someone will always be faster, always. The C63 is awesome at most things, so I'm happy. I don't get my tights in a wad if a supercharged civic leaves me in the dust.
08-06-2016, 01:26 PM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
08-07-2016, 12:20 AM
#5
Senior Member
The truth of it is that you're correct in your statements. There is no vacuum in which we can either test/prove/dismiss when dealing with cars on roads. Hell people much smarter and more capable than you and I can even get everything right always. So one has to consider the "any given Sunday" factor.
Love the post - it drives (pun intended) to a more holistic understanding of cars and specially our cars. That's being - guys enjoy your car! They are loud, typically a wolf in sheeps clothing!
I've had a couple drinks tonight so none of this might make sense, but who cares, I love my C63.
Love the post - it drives (pun intended) to a more holistic understanding of cars and specially our cars. That's being - guys enjoy your car! They are loud, typically a wolf in sheeps clothing!
I've had a couple drinks tonight so none of this might make sense, but who cares, I love my C63.
08-07-2016, 12:36 PM
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
You got it, Tint.
