WSH

Indeed, many lose perspective re: how cheap are today's cars measured in various ways....

Vs EU....really ironic since a new 65 in US only costs <$200K and has cheap, efficient $0-down, 2yr leases....making effective ownership costs even lower in US vs EU...

Vs time....as my elders always remind me, today's new CL550 in US only costs what a new CL500 costed back in early '90s....adjusting for inflation and today's much cheaper interest rates, today's new 65 only costs about as much as a mere 500 costed 15+ yrs ago....

Many on this forum are sophisticated enough to realize that we are in midst of a global debt crisis....cos. of all sorts are nervous about their access to cheap capital and stability of global banks.....has implications for mfrs' ability to offer cheap, subsidized leases in US; ability of dealers to keep $100K+ cars in inventory waiting for buyers; ability of buyers w/weak credit to qualify for cheap leases.....and many buyers will opt not to buy discretionary $100K+ cars in this financial climate.....and Ferrari is launching a high-volume $200K+ folding hardtop model this Fall; and AMG has a $200K SL Blk arriving this Fall.....a perfect storm for a bargain-hunting consumer.....lots of interesting new-tech cars, but no ability for mfrs to raise prices....

transferred

I understand your thinking but if possible it is better to plump for a used 65 over a 600.

Much bigger brakes, better suspension, seats, unique body styling and most importantly an engine giving an extra 0.5l of capacity.

This 6.0l lump is also better to tune and that's not just because of it's size. When hand modified at AMG they incorporate a balanced crankshaft, forged pistons, higher-grade bearings, altered chamber tops and a new oil system with individual cooling nozzles for each piston.

What this means is a factory-approved 600bhp/737tq and Stage2 numbers of c.700bhp 900tq.

TuneTime

Well im comparing New to New..... If i had the cashola i would buy a AMG new.. all AMG owners i know kick the snot out of their cars....

transferred

Fair point my friend. I'm one of them

TuneTime

lol... Me too...

zzboba

I really can understand the love for torque -- but from a technical POV, 600/65 are kind of old school, engine is 3 valves only per cylinder, auto tranny with 5 gears... and torque is too much for acceleration from standstill. I test drove a SL 65 some time ago and experienced wheelspin and ESP warning sign flicker... while REVERSING out of the parking space!

TuneTime

Now thats a car!!!!

zzboba

Dr. No

Go for the V-12! You will never regret it...that torque will have you addicted by the time you get home with your new "baby"

And the upgraded interior is significantly nicer than the 63...

Please post some pics when you pick up your winning decision!

D.

WSH

All fair points, zzboba...

But for rapid, effortless, silky-smooth surge from 70MPH cruise on a busy urban fwy when a gap appears in traffic....no other commuter car today provides surge of 65....

Am hoping SL Blk this Fall has a new-tech NA AMG V12, perhaps 650hp/515lb-ft; MCT; and is a 3800lb fixed-roof coupe....if has those parameters, could offer 599-like perf w/AMG safety...

Suspect motor that SL Blk has will offer many clues into what '09 S/CL may have....have heard MCT box was developed for SL Blk; read somewhere that MCT is currently only capable of supporting ?525lb-ft; and many magazines have claimed rumors that Blk will be 650hp....those datapoints make it less likely that SL Blk has either a modified 65 motor...or a turbo'd 63 motor (perhaps too much tq vs MCT).....thus, my guess is it's a new-tech NA V12 motor....

And if such latest/greatest engine/gearbox tech does appear in SL Blk, would suspect we will see that new motor and gearbox appearing in S/CL shortly thereafter....after all, MB/AMG needs to amortize the R&D costs of these technologies across as many $150K+ AMGs as poss.....

Red Marko

I'm trying to be open minded as much as possible (if that's possible).The whole thread helped me a lot to preliminary make up my mind (talking about objectivenes )
So far my dealer has a little difficulty, I think, to arrange back to back comparo. Small dealerhip in NJ (Globe). If not, my other choice is in the City (Manhatttan), they should have it (do NOT like Ray Catena NJ chain).
If not, I"ll ask the board for some help (why I didn't know you guys, when I had to struggle with my 2002 S430 for 3 years).

Anyway, my subjective (this time) evaluation of the CL Great Four Family:
CL550 - perfectly tailored Armani suit, timeless, understated.
CL63 - perfectly tailored Armani suit, timeless, but with the .357 SIG-Sauer exposed, for everybody to see, loud (read - pipe note) & dangerous, watch out.
CL600 - perfectly tailored Armani suit, timeless, .44 Magnum, hidden under the jacket (hood). Silent, elegant, might be dangerous, nobody knows or maybe few.
CL65 - perfectly tailored Armani suit, timeless, .500 Smith & Wesson, exposed + charm and beaming power. Simply - deadly.

As you can tell, I love guns (too). I live in great PA.

Anybody begs to differ on my evaluation ?

WSH

Markopolo, re: poss dealers for test drives...prob need to balance dealers that will have a copy of each in inventory vs those w/locales near relevant roads for a semi-decent test-drive (I suspect most dealers will resist allowing long test drives w/a non-known/repeat cust)....

Unfortunately, given its central location in one of the world's most congested areas, Manhattan is prob worst dealer to do a decent quick test drive, esp to differentiate tq....

May want to consider PrestigeMB in Paramus....or MB of Greenwich....

Red Marko

You are correct again, I was thinking in the terms of availability. City is out of the question, but Prestige/NJ...YES indeed.

Dr. No

Markopolo, if by chance you are going to be in Chicago this week, they have all four flavors of CL at Fletcher Jones MB....ask for Paul Price..great guy. They are holding to sticker for now... Once I saw the 65, I knew that was the way to go for me. I really missed my ol' V-12 SL 600 and want another fling before the eco-police potentially ruin things for the AMG-addicted
Post your test drive experiences when you can. Like your analogies of the cars, tend to agree, but I like my Colt Gold Cup just a bit more than the S & W!
D

WSH

Was scanning inventories of new CL600/63/65 around NYC, SF, BH (at least as per Net)....remarkable how much tighter are inventories today vs 2-3 mths ago....not surprised that major dealers in major mkts are reluctant to disct much....and that several major NYC dealers lack all flavors of CL....65s are fairly scarce in NYC inventories now.....

Suspect MB materially decreased allocations to US mkt and/or shipped some excess inventory out of US into Mideast and Russia (perhaps the favored dumping grounds while this global deleveraging plays out).....an interesting arbitrage given how cheap 65s are in US vs EU.....

But given that US buys some 60-70% of world's 65s....and Lond/EU economy is unlikely to be robust w/a faltering US economy and tricky global financial mkts....should be interesting times ahead for sales of $150K+ cars of any brand....

TuneTime

CL600 Sport Package!!

TMC M5

I think with the AMG sport-package the CL's are more like a Kiton or Brioni suit.

I would have to agree with the other about the power of the V-12 biturbo. I have had an M5 and Audi RS6...but nothing really prepares you for the time warp at full throttle. You really need to plan out your path as the car will just get up on the traffic ahead. You can kind of sense that you are going fast...but you still end up surprised that you are closing that fast. this is something I didn't really expect to be surprised given my past history with relatively fast cars.

Tom

JAYCL600

Kiton, nice taste The power delivery is very deceptive in these cars, you described it perfectly

Red Marko

A little update.
With a big help from WSH (he spent his time and found the dealer) I scheduled an appt. for Tuesday to test both beasts - back to back. +
Mind you, surprisedly wasn't easy to find a dealer to have both of them in stock, I'm talking EastCoast. (btw, thanks - Dr. No, for sugessting Chicago)'
One of the members, thru PM, noticed that i never posted any pics of my baby. I stand corrected.
As you can see MB is the only one, that does it right.
Every single time you look at the car... it gives back to you by looking better.
PURE MAGIC.

WSH

Excellent, markopolo....look fwd to your impressions

Aside from tq....on 287/684 fwys, I'd closely evaluate brake pedal feel/chassis stability in emergent high-speed braking, esp on bumpier stretches of fwy...and exhaust notes....also, would ask if these 19" AMG wheels some EU 63/65 seem to have are compatible vs brakes (to determine useable winter tires/wheels for 63)....

BTW, don't know much about guns, but have some expce w/suits from my time in Manhattan....

The Manhattan hedge fund/private equity uniform (at high-end) is a bespoke suit, bespoke shirt, Charvet/Hermes tie, Schlumberger-caliber cufflinks, Patek....

Though I haven't worn a suit/tie in yrs (almost no financier in Greenwich or SF/SiliconValley wears archaic suits/ties....but the ex-Manhattan look is a studied, bespoke casual look that often costs no less), would observe even custom Kiton/Brioni (let alone off-the-rack) have awful daily-useability/ergonomics/workmanship (loose buttons, weak pockets, poor resilience vs dry cleaning, etc etc)......I think of them as Ferrari-like....just an aspirational brand w/little substance....

For yrs, have had my shirts/suits/jackets/pants made at AscotChang (a HK-based tailor w/stores in Manhattan and BH).....one tells Ascot what style one prefers (even bring in garment one favors as a starting point); Ascot has some of world's highest quality cloth swatches from which to choose (everyone goes to same purveyors at super-high-end).....and Ascot stuff has superb build quality w/remarkable resilience vs travel/heavy use/dry cleaning, etc.....I think of Ascot like today's new S/CLs (and similarly one can spec a $3K suit...or a $10+K suit...a $250 shirt...or a $600 shirt)....

In many ways, the various CLs are like a well-dressed, accomplished guy in Manhattan/Greenwich/SiliconValley.....some details change; some are more formal than others....but most titans in any of these places are low-key, favoring conservative/understated colors&styles....but any jaded observor can easily distinguish debadged versions of CLs...or a bespoke suit/shirt...or high-end watch/cufflinks/shoes, etc....big/smart/jaded money tends to speak same language, whether in cars or attire or most other aspects of consumption....at extreme high-end, guys choose to consume stuff that interests them....and price of various iterations often correlates poorly vs relative net worth of consumers.....

TMC M5

I used to be an Italian clothes horse...mainly Borelli shirts, Zegna ties, suits and shirts, Brioni suits and shirts and Canali suits and shirts, Gucci and Versace ties (and yes my Hermes ties as well...although not Italian). Now I prefer the understated quality of Hickey Freeman. I don't wear suits too much any more and the Hickey Freeman style is more classic.....and actually more affordable. I am only 36, but I think I aged quite a bit in the last couple of years.

Cheers,

Tom

zzboba

IMHO Zegna/Brioni/Armani etc are all antiquated. Of course (mostly) excellent quality, but boring.
CL is an über-tech vessel, which can't be compared with fashion.

Personally I prefer Ann Demeulemeester, Bottega Veneta, some Dior Homme pieces and the recent Gucci stuff by Frida Giannini... BUT I wouldn't like to drive a car like my clothes -- it would probably brake down after some miles, look messy and would be terribly uncomfortable

Red Marko

Holy smoke
What have I done. Did I open any "Designer Pandora's Box" here ?
Comparing CL to Armani
The operating word here should be - timeless - That's what CL is to me.

Now going back to the subject.
Today I have driven both cars, CL63 vs. CL600 one after the other. I think I owe some afterthoughts to you guys.
Not to prolong to announce my choice, but. The winner (to me) is................CL600!
CL63 - from the engine start to the acceleration - deep beautiful pipe sound. Rougher ride that I expected, maybe 20" tires were part of it, much tighter steering wheel, acceleration - m. better than 550 but not great. FANTASTIC brakes. Overall sporty,tight feeling, not relaxing one.
CL600 - very distinct high pitch sound the second you start the car and then quiet. Exterior not much different from 550, interior exquisite, plush and relaxing (as I remember). Alcantara welcomes you. Only options I can add is Ipod wire + 19" wheels.
Now going to the best part of if. Torgue, torgue and lets not forget - the torque. The second you decide that it's open/safe road ahead of you, press the pedal and...................................time warp.............................you are in some uncharted teritory (any Star Trekkers here ? )
It's that good. Gents, you were right. I don't think I want to drive anything else (for now). Don't forget that I'm driving approx. 700 mi. every week and CL63 may be little bit tireing after a while I'm affraid.
To me CL600 is a perfect combination of comfort and performance

BTW, do you think V12 will be OK (trouble free) for 100k mi. or so?

Dr. No

I knew that torque would seduce you!
I know because I've been there myself...so glad you drove both and posted your insights... You will appreciate that silky smoothness of the V-12 and better interior if you put that many miles on...I had my SL 600 for 10 years with no engine issues..can't wait to see your next post with pics of the new CL600 in the garage!
Have fun!
D.

WSH

Agree, markopolo....600 sounds most logical vs your long commute routes and need for winter tire/wheel compatibility....

Given my car ADD/OCD, for yrs have traded-in new cars after 3-5K mis (or less).....haven't driven a car for more than 10K mis until my current CL63 030 (which, like all my '07-'08 CLs to-date, has been free of even a minor glitch)....have no idea how reliable are any of these cars after 15-20K mis....

If driving 35K+ mis/yr, prob need to decide what is financial sweet spot in terms of frequency of trading-in 600 vs deprec curve....and vs mtce/svc costs/hassles/oppty costs....and potential costs of post-warranty repairs....

BTW, agree w/zzboba's observation....cars shouldn't be compared w/attire or low/no-tech jewelry like Pateks......I think of cars as rapidly obsolescent/disposable tech devices, more akin to smartphones...but w/critical implications for one's health/safety/lifespan/personal financial liability in any collision (or on-road failure), unlike most tech devices......and I algorithmically get a new Blkberry every 6mos or so....too many new advances/updates/debugs to bother w/an elderly smartphone....or car.....I suspect most, even astute, financiers in NYC inadequately price risks of driving an older and/or non-optimally-safe car.....