vedranm78

Hi everyone .I have w208 230k 2002.i have bought a car with roof problem. I have searched everywhere but it seems that I have different problem from everyone else. Basically what's happening when I try to open the roof all windows go down but nothing else happens the light flashes slowly. Roll over bar go's up and down when operated by switch but when I try to open the roof no moves at all even if they are in up position. I have trayed to reset them but when I hold switch in any direction up or down it go's to the maximum position either way and stops but pump still keeps running.Just wandering if my problem is electrical or problem with roll bar since pump is functional. I would really appreciate if someone could give me some ideas on how to find solution for it.

krazzz

There may not be a problem at all. Have you opened the trunk and checked to see that the trunk divider (whatever it's called) that reserves the space is locked in place? I would retract it and then pull it out again. Sometimes it looks like it is in place but it isn't quite triggering the sensor. It is very common for people to think they have a problem when this is all it is. It's the first thing to check anyway. Let us know what you find.

vedranm78

Thanks for replay. But definitely in place usually if not in place switch blinks quickly. Just wandering is it normal when you press manually for head rest going up or down for pump to keep going even tho it reached maximum point up or down

Serndipity

The hydraulic pump motor should shut off after the headrest/rollbar is extended or retracted.

There are limit switches that send the required signals (additional information below).

The pump motor turns on and off via a relay, which could also be faulty (has been a common problem). This relay is the same type as used by the fuel pump relay, so you can temporarily substitute it to see if that is the problem.

joetwa

i actually have the exact same problem happening right now
i have a very good DIY (still in draft form so not posted yet) Ill send you with all pns etc (wished i had replaced the relay when I had pump cover open to fix my other issues with my hydro system, but such is life)

am going to swap out this coming friday
send me your email via pM and ill send the doc (and will post when done of course)

doc isnt too much different than my first one on Klaus site already - just shows specifically the relay on page 11 - just not done yet

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/W208...eplacement.pdf

cheers

vedranm78

I have put brand new relay and same thing. Pump doesn't shut off. Any other solutions

joetwa

recommend you send a PM to "Top Hydraulics" on this board - Klaus should be able to help you identify your problem, and work with you to help fix - but the pump not shutting off when the relay is new is probably the pump itself, or the control unit.

gun4hire

I'm certainly no pro, but I have done my share of digging and troubleshooting this same type of issue. My rollbars are the same way...and there is no 'limit' switch that shuts the pump off when they are full down/up.

Until you pull your trunk interior apart, you won't be able to effectively see/test all the micro switches. Once you do, you can use the following guide to pinpoint their location and test them for continuity with a voltmeter: https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen..._locations.pdf

Since my issue sounds very similar to yours, check the thread here for more details:
https://mbworld.org/forums/clk-class...m-fix-fyi.html

And yes, Klaus has been a huge help - he will probably chime in here as well...

Top Hydraulics

Please clarify questions in blue. Might be moot after your messages below, but it would have been nice to have a clear description in your first post. That makes it a lot easier to help, and future readers can understand the problem better.

I don't own a CLK, but that should definitely not be normal. Sticky relay after all, or pump isn't able to push the cylinder all the way, or faulty limit switch come to mind. By the way, have you checked the fluid level in the pump?

Just making sure: did you replace the relay next to the pump - the one that takes a while to get to? Again, please clarify how long the pump keeps running.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

vedranm78

Thank you for replay. I have replaced relay next to the pump. You are correct windows go down than nothing. The toolbars move only if operated by switch and pump keeps going as long as i hold the switch up/down Doesn't stop at all.fluid is ok no sign of any leaks from cylinders When connected to diagnostics doesn't send any error msg's. it's driving me crazy

gun4hire

I know Klaus said this shouldn't happen, but it does the same thing on my CLK - Indy shop checked and confirmed no electrical or hydraulic faults in my case. I have seen no evidence that there is any 'limit' switch to shut the pump off when the headrests are at max up/down position.

vedranm78

@gun4hire. Does your roof operates properly. If it does now what have they done to it. Thanx

Serndipity

[QUOTE=gun4hire;I have seen no evidence that there is any 'limit' switch to shut the pump off when the headrests are at max up/down position.[/QUOTE]

From the 'headrest theory of operation' in post #4, isn't that what switches S83/5 and S83/6 do?

gun4hire

While that would seem logical, little in this car seems to follow logic. lol. I'm gonna guess and say those switches trigger the headrests to stop/motor to shut off when they are automatically lowered or raised.

From those docuemnts:

" The Rollbar Extension:
* Extended and retracted manually when the rollbar switch (manual operation [s83]) is pressed.
* Extended and retracted automatically during operation of the soft top."

To the OP: If this is really driving you crazy, I would not hesitate to go ahead and take it in for service. In troubleshooting these complicated soft tops, you can easily make matters worse if you arent really careful.

Top Hydraulics

I must not have read the original post enough times to make sure I understand the questions and the problem.

Just to clarify: from my experience with other convertibles, it is normal for the pump to keep running as long as you keep the roll bar switch pushed. Limit switches are needed for automatic operation of roll bar and soft top.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

AlanWaddell

I have 2003 CLK320. Roof will not operste.

I have changed the relay and fuses.
Fluid ok.
Headrests work off the button.
Not showing any codes on Star.

I have tried lowering the roof as per manual, but seems the part with window seems to be stuck solid.

Can anyone suggest anything.

Falcon45

Did you ever get a fix for this problem as I have exactly same problem on my CLK-208 (2001 Y reg).
The roll bar light switch (S83) blinks until I turn the engine on fully and go through at least one up/down cycle. I have determined that this is probably what is stopping my soft top from working automatically as it also keeps the soft top light switch (S84) permanently lit.
1. FUSES
First thing (simplest) I checked was the fuses...there are 3 fuses related to the soft top operation:
Boot Fuse Block F4 - Fuse 11 - 15A - Provides power to N52 Soft Top controller
Ditto - Fuse 13 - 40A - Powers & protects hydraulic pump motor for soft top
Engine Fuse Block F1 - Fuse 15 - 5A - Also provides power to the ST controller (N52)
These were all OK.
2. Hydraulic Unit Components
Next I checked all the pistons and rods and there are no hydraulic leaks plus the hydraulic reservoir level is normal. The pumps and motors also all seem to be working fine with correct fluid levels and the whole open/close sequences works fine on manual...although red light (S84) never goes out. The Roll Bar/Head Rests also work fine operated through the S83 switch.
Here is a list of all the components checked, their location and their part numbers for other members:
Switchable check valve for manual ops Behind rear seats a 001* OK
Roll bar hydraulic unit (power soft top) Ditto A7/5 001* OK
Hydraulic unit relay Ditto A7/5k1 001* OK
Motor Ditto A7/5m1 001* OK
Power soft top control module Ditto N52 001* ??
Soft top control block (7 connections) Ditto Y56/2 001* OK
There is a good article here in the forums on how to access this and all other ST related units by removing boot carpets and linings and the metal angled panel covering the hydraulic unit...it is honestly not rocket science if I can do it and should only take a few hours to completely strip and then get working...but try not to lose any of the nuts and bolts and cover pins.....about 30-40 in all.:
As none of the fuses or hydraulics seemed to be out of order I then I took it to an Indie who charged me £35 to put it on their star diagnostics and was amazed that it came back with no error codes. We presumed it was simply a faulty switch and that the N52 Soft Top Control Module must be working normally but simply getting a false signal from somewhere...but where?
As far as I can see the only causes I have left to check are the limit switches themselves:
3. SWITCHES
I have tested the following switches with a voltmeter according to the voltages I found in as the MB blogs/forum quote them as the most usual culprits for the N52 soft top controller getting a false signal...
Switch Description Position Part # Qty Status
S83 - RB manual ops & indicator switch UCP to left 1 Blinking Red
S83/5 - RB extended limit switch LHS RB ram to top 1 ?
S83/6 - RB retracted limit switch LHS RB ram to bottom 1 ?
S84 - ST open/close & indicator switch LCP left of gear stick 1 Constant Red
S84/5 - ST compartment cover open switch RHS boot hinge end A 208 820 22 10 1 OK
S84/11 - ST locked limit switch Front passenger roof lock 1 OK
S84/13 - ST open/close train limit switch LHS of A 208 820 24 10 1 OK
S84/15 - ST fabric bow up/down limit switch Under LHS fabric bow towards rear A 208 820 23 10 1 OK
S84/16 - ST bow locked limit switch Under middle of metal bow lock 1 OK
S69/10 - Luggage cover engaged limit switch Luggage cover RHS track end 1 OK
A25S1 - Bow Cover open/closed switch Bow locking point A 129 821 11 51 1 OK
A25S2 - Bow Cover locked switch Bow locking point A 129 821 12 51 1 OK

To be honest, the switches marked OK have only been checked for voltage and resistance at the switch end because I do not have the 126 pin socket box (Part # 129 589 00 21 00) or test cable (part # 104 589 00 63 00) to check the N52 module end in the boot. So I have two questions remaining for the forum:
1. Does anyone know where I could borrow these parts from to check the switches from the N52 end;
2. Alternatively , is there an Indie out there who would be willing to check S83/5 and S83/6 for me and order and replace if necessary?

Falcon45

Most useful piece of info I have found yet for soft top problems although I am building up quite a collection from this thread but I will also try to put together a PDF on a step-by-step sequence along with switch positions, voltages and resistances of the limit switches at each stage, swithc locations and access and finally how to test via N52 cable using an auto power probe and volt/ohm meter.

Falcon45

Just another couple of points on the above as no-one has responded yet:

1. Having just thought that after the roof lock is opened and the windows go down, the next part of the signal process should be a window limit switch to tell the control module N52 that the windows are down before the roll bars are activated. Hence, having diagnosed the toll bar limit switch as the problem, it is perhaps more relevant to check the power windows limit switches first as I have been doing a lot of work on the drivers side window which over and under shoots intermittently when closing.....I had to re-rivet the winder mechanism as the rivets sheered when the window got stuck after and accident about 10 years ago and I have had problems with this window ever since. Unfortunately I cannot see anything on this wonderful thread about window limit switches. Does anyone know the designation and location of these switches....I canot even find which pin they connect to on the N52 module....but surely they must;
2. Is it possible to test all the limit switches by disconnecting the N52 module and applying a voltmeter/ohmeter and auto power probe to the end of the cable disconnected from the module. I have a copy of Chapter 11.5 Cabriolet Soft Top (CST) , Roll Bar (RB) from a MB diagnostic manual I found on a Belgian website (attached) if anyone is interested. It gives all the Diagnostic Test Codes, Switch Locations, N52 pin designations and a complete electrical test program with required values (most of which already appears on this thread in bits and pieces but here it all is in one place).

Serndipity

You'll find an explanation of what would cause continuous illumination of the S84 lamp, when it's not pressed, in the enclosed thumbnail (S84LampDiagnostics).

In regard to the blinking RB switch lamp, have you tried this? With the S83 RB switch, manually raise the RB and continue holding for 5 seconds, followed by lowering the RB and continue holding for 5 seconds. Enclosed is a functional diagram of the N52 controller, which analyzes the positions of the limit and operating switches (i.e. Inputs) and correspondingly switches the solenoid valves to actuate the hydraulic cylinders, pump and rear window motors (i.e. Outputs). The power roof will not operate if the controller evaluates the RB as being extended and will automatically lower it, before allowing operation of the power roof.

The MB Star diagnostic software is quite capable of finding and reporting diagnostic trouble codes when the power roof malfunctions. As example, a malfunction of the RB retracted limit switch (S83/5) would trigger and store a B165000 DTC and a B165001 DTC would point to a problem with RB extend limit switch (S83/6). In the hands of a qualified tech, it's a powerful diagnostic tool. BTW, here in the U.S., although the cost would be $100 or more, it's money well spent. Also note that often a stored code, that may be random, will prevent operation power roof operation until the code is cleared.

Note that the N52 controller inputs/outputs also take place over the interior CANBus. Also see the enclosed thumbnail (CabrioletWindowOperation). Operation of the front windows are via the N69 door controllers and the rear windows by the N52 in conjunction with the N72 control module. Given the suite of window features/capabilities, I don't think you find simple mechanical limit switches used. Instead, position and direction control is most likely done via Hall sensors on the the motor shafts, timing counters etc..

IMHO, in the absence of meaningful SDS diagnostics, anyone with good troubleshooting and DIY skills can repair their power roofs and save a ton of money.

First, you need to accurately determine when the roof fails, which then will isolate where to troubleshoot. This is done by observing the various stages of roof operation (see enclosures STStageOpen and STStageClose).

Next, the failure is going to be either due to faulty hydraulics (e.g. leaks, a defect in the value block), the frame (e.g. tension cables) or in the electricals (e.g. limit/position switches, wiring). Troubleshooting the first two are done by visual inspection.
Most of the electrical malfunctions checks can be done with a basic multi-meter, capable of reading ohms and/or voltage. Another enclosure (STCloseSwitchStatus) shows the required status of the limit switches and solenoids at the end of each stage, when closing the soft top.

In reply to your last question, testing the limit switches at the N52 connector, when it's disconnected from the controller, is actually the preferred method. That's because not only will this test each switch condition, but also the entire path back to the controller, that involves the wiring harness for other potential problems (e.g. within the signal acquisition modules (SAMs), broken wires, poor grounds etc.).

The key here is to make sure that the expected multi-meter reading, corresponds exactly (e.g. directly related) to the specific stage of roof operation, as well as the expected resistance measurement (e.g. checks the switch inputs for proper activation and wiring harness issues) and/or voltages (e.g. checks that inputs generate the required outputs).

As example, to check if your RB extend limit switch (S83/6) is producing the required N52 input signal or voltage supply output signal, would be to proceed as follows.

With the ignition switch on and the RB completely extended, the nominal voltage value should be 0 - 1 volt and with the RB completely retracted, the voltage should be between 11 and 14 volts.

For this test, the N52 connector must be in place, so you'll have to find a way to connect the voltmeter to pin 34 on the N52 connector and ground. Note: If both values are not OK, indicates a N52 controller malfunction.

You can also check the S83/6 switch itself. With the ignition off, disconnect the N52 connector and measure the resistance between pin 34 and ground. When the RB is extended you should see near 0 ohms and when the RB is retracted, a very high resistance (e.g. an open circuit).

GatorMB

Serendipity correct,

If there are no error codes present. Have Star system available to reset system and interlocks.
Amazing that certain disagreement between systems will disable others, like seat controls. etc

Thanks Serendipity

CLKGeek

Hi, where can I find the enclosed thumbnails that you're referring to? Thanks!

jvfante

The top on my friend's 2001 W208 CLK430 Cabriolet that I've worked on for ten years suddenly had its top stop going down. The problem was that the rear headrests were in the up position. Pushing the switch on the dash to retract them made the top resume normal operation.

BTW, before we figured this out, the pump would run as long as the red top up-down switch was pushed.

Hope that is helpful to others and that your problem is as simple as operator error.