2006 Cdi Vs 2007 Bluetec

[Alan Smithee]

Indeed, this thread has evolved into a tire discussion...so I'll add my experience. The CDI has a LOT of torque, and the Bluetec even more...it will still break the tires loose easily with the sport package 265/18s. However, the sport package tire/wheel set-up transforms the handling from a squealing and listing boat to almost BMW-like response, transitions, and grip. It also puts just enough starch in the ride to make you aware of what's underneath you. The 225/16s were marshmallows, and masked road feel to the borderline of unsafe, IMO. That said, the 17s are probably best for non-enthusiast drivers and in bad weather, and being non-staggered provide the ability to rotate the tires.

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[harkgar]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

Here's more about the engine block in the OM642 DE30 LA, from the folks who make the engine blocks for Mercedes, Norsk Hydro in Germany.

Hydro delivers benchmark block for new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine
(2005-02-02) Hydro is supplying DaimlerChrysler with a benchmark-setting engine block from aluminium for its new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine. This very first aluminium V-block for a high-performance passenger diesel in large scale production proves that aluminium withstands the extreme pressures in this kind of engine.

http://www.hydro.com/en/press_room/n...eblock_en.html

Also interesting, this article:


Facts on Hydro's V-6 block for Mercedes
(2005-02-02) Hydro is supplying DaimlerChrysler with a benchmark-setting engine block from aluminium for its new Mercedes V-6 diesel engine. Here are some more facts:

TECHNOLOGY: Hydro has advanced its proprietary Core Package System CPS™ to become the leading technology for complex engine castings. Far-reaching design options allowed the integration of oil and water channels and pre-casting of attached parts, supporting Daimler-Chrysler´s innovative “one-box concept”.

At a V-degree of 72°, the most compact engine architecture in its class achieves a performance-weight ratio of 0.79 KW/kg, up 20 per cent compared with its predecessor, Mercedes´ 5-cylinder inline diesel engine. Cast-in rough iron liners ensure high thermal conductivity and low friction for the engine run. Yet, Hydro´s final aluminium block is saving more than 35 kg compared with a similar engine block in iron.

The casting method has been refined to provide outstanding fatigue strength, even exceeding the level of grey cast iron. Thanks to a combination of contact pouring, chill technique and a fine-tuned alloy, the new block meets the famous Mercedes standard for long-term durability, even at such a tremendous torque level as 510 Nm.

PLANT: To manufacture the new product, Hydro Aluminium Alucast in Dillingen, Germany, has established a third production line for V-engines with a maximum capacity of 350,000 parts per year. The Mercedes order is creating new jobs. In the long run, the Alucast plant workforce may grow to 800.

MARKET: Diesel engines are rapidly approaching 50 per cent of the market for new car registrations in Europe – and now can contribute to the future growth of aluminium use in cars. This will further increase fuel efficiency and facililitate recyclability. Based on this development, Hydro Aluminium Business Unit Castings will increase its market share and provide more viable solutions for engine manufacturing.

http://www.hydro.com/en/press_room/n..._facts_en.html

72 degrees V-6 sounds awkful. V-6 engines are inherently imbalanced while straight 6 ones are mechanically balanced. To make matters worse, MB produced one with 72 instead of 90 degrees. This engine needs weight enhancing balancer shafts alright. It is strange that Benz goes this route knowing full well it is an inferior design, like doing an air-cool V-4 engine now (VW, Saab 96). Their high horse V-8 bi-turbo diesel which has been in production for a couple of years in Europe is also a "narrow angle" engine.

MB should have produced a twin turbo version of the straight 6 with 300 horses and a close ratio 6 speed manual on the floor! Forget the trees and breathing for a while.

[Wolfgang]

Originally Posted by harkgar

72 degrees V-6 sounds awkful. V-6 engines are inherently imbalanced while straight 6 ones are mechanically balanced. To make matters worse, MB produced one with 72 instead of 90 degrees. This engine needs weight enhancing balancer shafts alright. It is strange that Benz goes this route knowing full well it is an inferior design, like doing an air-cool V-4 engine now (VW, Saab 96). Their high horse V-8 bi-turbo diesel which has been in production for a couple of years in Europe is also a "narrow angle" engine.

MB should have produced a twin turbo version of the straight 6 with 300 horses and a close ratio 6 speed manual on the floor! Forget the trees and breathing for a while.

Yes, the OM642 DE30 LA uses a 72 degree angle and also a balancer shaft to compensate vibrations inherent in the design. Overall it's more compact than the inline six OM648 DE32 LA and can thus also be fitted in the 4MATIC models which up to now did not have diesel engines in the sedans, due to space constraints.

Mercedes recently also introduced new V8 diesels, the OM629 DE40 LA, replacing the somewhat unreliable OM628 DE42 LA.

Here's an OM642 info file Copyright Mercedes which I just uploaded.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/OM642.pdf

[harkgar]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

Yes, the OM642 DE30 LA uses a 72 degree angle and also a balancer shaft to compensate vibrations inherent in the design. Overall it's more compact than the inline six OM648 DE32 LA and can thus also be fitted in the 4MATIC models which up to now did not have diesel engines in the sedans, due to space constraints.

Mercedes recently also introduced new V8 diesels, the OM629 DE40 LA, replacing the somewhat unreliable OM628 DE42 LA.

Here's an OM642 info file Copyright Mercedes which I just uploaded.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/OM642.pdf

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the detail information. Germany precision indeed.

In the brochures and on the MB websites all over the world I found conflicting information on the E-320 Bluetec. Horsepower varies between 210 and 224 and torque varies between 388 foot pound to 400 foot pound. What is the reason for the fluctuations?

If the V-6 has 400 torque it trumps the E-550 by a good margin with less money!

[Wolfgang]

Originally Posted by harkgar

If the V-6 has 400 torque it trumps the E-550 by a good margin with less money!

That's the number MBUSA used in their recent press release, which I deem was a bit optimistic. I believe the true numbers are 155 kW of power which is the equivalent of 211 DIN PS in Germany and 208 SAE hp on these shores; and 388 lb.-ft. just barely under the E550 with 391 (maybe for political reasons? ) And from 1600 rpm instead of from 2800 rpm. The Garrett VNT turbo has probably something to do with that.

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/ts/tt...2155701757.htm

[harkgar]

Wolfgang,

This is great - an American company making high tech components for Mercedes. How come Porsche does not use them? I believe some European companies use Mitsubishi or some other Japanese turbos.

Do you know what Cummins or Navistar use for turbos? Presumably Duramax is sourcing from Isuzu. The new 6.6 liter V-8 Duramax with the heavy duty Alliston 6 speed auto transmission sounds exciting. Wonder how this will work in a E-class? Call it the E-666 (6.6 liter, 6 speed).

[Wolfgang]

Originally Posted by harkgar

Wolfgang,

This is great - an American company making high tech components for Mercedes. How come Porsche does not use them? I believe some European companies use Mitsubishi or some other Japanese turbos.

The Porsche 911 and Cayenne Turbos are using BorgWarner VGT turbos similar to Garrett's VNT but with nickel alloy blades to withstand the higher temperatures encountered in gasoline combustion engines. The VNT technology was pioneered by Garrett and as far as I know first debuted in 1989 on the Shelby CSX-VNT. So Porsche is stealing Dodge technology..

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/pres...ws&message=116

[lkchris]

Add Delphi fuel pumps.

[974AGK]

Yes you are correct on the 320CDI making a fool of a 350 , My Current chipped CLS 320CDI , walks away from a CLS 350 with great ease & far better fuel consumption. With 15000mls on the clock now it seems to have another lease of life. Ahhhh the joys of modern diesel.

Krgds
Alex
CLS,[05] Iridium Silver,,Amg bodystyling with twin Amg Exhaust,Amg 19" Alloys,Nappa Club Design,High Gloss Laurel Wood,Driver& passenger full electric pack + mirrors + sterring column, Heatedfront seats,Heated rear seats,Keyless Go,Luxury Climate Control,Parktronic,Remote boot closing, Paddle Steering Wheel Shift Button's, Bi-Xenon Lamps with Active Light System + cornering + headlamp wash,6 Disc Cd Changer,Command APS with Cd/Dvd + Sat Nav system,Harmon/Kardon Logic 7 surround sound -recent ipod hard wire,via command system Telephone prewire, Type of phone Sony T68 , Rear Amg Lip Spoiler ,Updated Management system ECU + 50 Bhp + 95NM Torque. [274bhp as per DMS]

[Green E-300 DT]

Where did anyone say that the older CDIs and the newer Bluetecs diesels are superior to the 350 gasser?

No doubt your chipped CLS 320 CDI is a mover, but it is, after all, chipped, and that
do make one hell of a difference! What happens if said 350 is likewise modified?

Did you order yours' with all that gingerbread, or did you modify it yourself?

Pity that we are not afforded the options of ordering our diesels as we choose.

Mine would be an E-320 CDI Bluetec variant and not the only choice available here, an E class sedan.

What a shame.

[974AGK]

I dont think nobody said they were better , It was just my opinion[Cheaper to run than gas in this country anyway current price $7.69 a gallon bases on 4.55litre ]

My car was ordered the way it was from factory apart from the chip ,which was an aftermarket & put in to the car by a lap top.

I though everbody in this forum was derv heads.
Cheers
Alex

[Green E-300 DT]

I say that diesels are better, especially if they are chipped.

I can also say I fully understand why many use diesels, especially abroad where fuel is so dear.

In many parts of the United States, ULSD is priced higher than premimum gasoline.

Please explain: "derv heads"?

My first of ten MBZ diesels was a 1961 190 DB.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by Green E-300 DT

What happens if said 350 is likewise modified?

Can't be...without a turbo, 'chipping' or ECU flashing a modern car won't result in a significant power increase.

[Green E-300 DT]

Not sure what you mean by a significant power increase but, it is indeed possible
to increase power in a modern car without a turbo by changing the computer.

How do I know? Because I have done so over the last several
years many times to several different gas powered vehicles.

There is always room for some improvement over the tuning done by the engineers
because most cars are not tuned for maximum performance from the factory.

[Alan Smithee]

I beg to differ. By "significant" I mean power increases that can be felt, not just seen as a blip on a dyno graph. Unless the ECU is modified in conjunction with other modifications such as an intake and exhaust, modern engine management IS optimized. In the old days...which could indeed be as recently as several years ago for some vehicles...ECUs were designed for 87 octane and could not adapt to 91 or 93 without modification. Now they can.

Bottom line is that significant power increases can easily be had on a new MB turbo diesel, but not on a new MB with gasoline power.

[Green E-300 DT]

My friend, you are dead wrong!

Why is it that thousands of people shell out big bucks to independent tuners and also
those who buy hand-held programmers where anyone can do it themselves and
gain "significant" power increases that can and are felt?

Take my Zetec as an example.

Tuned from the factory to run on regular, I've never heard it ping on any fuel I've used.

I have a hand held programmer where I can either install a program for 87 octane or 91 octane.

On the 87 program, it will ping ever so slightly on regular, but it is NOT hurting anything.
Mileage and power are better, but no "significanty" as you say.

With the 91 octane program using 91 octane fuel, power and especially fuel economy are much better. I am
running with an extra + 2 degrees advance up to 2000 rpm and an extra + 1 degree from 2000 to 4000 rpm.

Educate yourself before making such bold statements.

Some of us here have been around too long to accept everything said on these forums!

[Alan Smithee]

You confirmed what that I stated; obviously your 'Zetec' does not have modern engine management if it cannot adapt to 91 or 93 octane on its own. The E350 does, so significant power cannot be had with a modified ECU. That was the discussion, remember?

Comprehend posts carefully before making derogatory statements.

[Green E-300 DT]

As I have said above, you do not know what you are talking about!

You are stating something that is not based on fact.

My car has OBD II as do all certified cars in N A begining in 1996 or even earlier in some cases.
It is in fact set up from Ford to run regular.

Would you like the name and URL of a tuner that does the gas MBZs?

Do you actually believe that the MBZ gassers as they come from the factory
have the stock computers set up for maximum performance?

Unbelieveable!

[Alan Smithee]

What facts are you basing your comments on? That relating your experience with a relatively old Ford 4-cylinder economy car motor somehow translates directly to facts regarding a relatively new MB 6-cylinder?

Do I actually believe that "the MBZ gassers as they come from the factory
have the stock computers set up for maximum performance"? Yes I do. Please do provide the URL of a reputable tuner with an E350 'chip' that claims gains of 5% or more power without sacrifice.

Do you actually believe that the manufacturer of some of the highest performing vehicles on the planet would leave 5% or more power on the table, and that some tuner with an immeasurable fraction of DCX's budget can somehow come up with it?

I, too, say "unbelievable".

[Green E-300 DT]

You have clearly got your mind set in stone!

My tuner does not have any programs showing on his website yet for the 2007 E class 350 V6.

That does not mean that he does not have a program however.

He does have programs listed for the older E-320, ML 320 etc.

Would those be modern enough for you? Those do provide in excess of a five percent gain.

See: http://www.speedtuningusa.com/

At the top see "Orders! Buy"

Click on that and then click on the MBZ emblem.

There are the different programs that Oliver has listed, but I don't think that list is up to date.
I suspect that it is not, because it is the same listing that I recall having
been there over two years ago when I had him do my E-300 DT.
BTW, the program that he installed in that car made it a real screamer.

BTW, that program used in my E-300 DT is not listed even now.
That is how I figure that his website is not up to date.

Stock HP was 177 hp

Stock torque was 330 nm

Modified HP became 222 hp

Modified torque - 420 nm

Considerably more than a mere 5 percent!

I think that his program actually was more than the 309.7 ft/lb he said because that
car would simply fly. No traction, and the power was too much for the transmission!

[Alan Smithee]

Again you've made my point.

No, the MB 3.2 V6 is not modern. It's over 10 years old. And jeezus I don't care about your 300TDT.

And my mind is set in stone? Get a clue.

[Green E-300 DT]

You said it brother, not me.
I'm only trying to broaden your warped mind, but you're just to dumb to know how stupid you really are!

I do have an email to my computer tech . . ah never mind. You wouldn't believe him either.

You are beyond help. Carry on dummy. Go ahead and believe whatever you like.

BTW, what do you care about? Being dumb I'll wager.

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

. . . jeezus I don't care about your 300TDT.
And my mind is set in stone? Get a clue.

[harkgar]

http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C9764/

I found this link with a diagram of the Bluetec V-6 and can see that the turbo does not sit right inside the V of the 2 cylinder banks but at least partly outside it. Somewhat better than I thought.

Has anyone bought a Bluetec diesel yet? My dealer said it is not available until Christmas 2006 or early 2007.

[Green E-300 DT]

Your dealer is not telling you the truth! I wonder why?

Your profile does not show your location, which is

Try:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...srep=&x=31&y=6

There are 45 new Bluetecs listed on this AutoTrader site as of this morning.
There were only 33 last Friday and none prior to then, so one might gather that there are indeed many more
available now and that the dealerships are just now listing them as being available Via this AutoTrader site.

HTHs

[harkgar]

Originally Posted by Green E-300 DT

Your dealer is not telling you the truth! I wonder why?

Your profile does not show your location, which is

Try:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...srep=&x=31&y=6

There are 45 new Bluetecs listed on this AutoTrader site as of this morning.
There were only 33 last Friday and none prior to then, so one might gather that there are indeed many more
available now and that the dealerships are just now listing them as being available Via this AutoTrader site.

HTHs

The 2007 Bluetecs 320 CDi engines are available now in the ML, the R and the GL (all built in Indiana) but I have not seen any E320 CDi yet. More puzzling is the horsepower and torque numbers. On some MB websites they have different numbers in different pages. Typically the horsepower is 208 to 224 and the torque in pound foot 388 to 400.

You are lucky living in the USA. Prices and delivery charges are much lower even after allowing for exchange at 1.12. This is true for other makes too.