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Diesel additives

Old 08-24-2014, 09:29 PM
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Diesel additives

New to he diesel world and have a 2010 GL350 diesel in nj. Winter is on its way but hopefully will be moving to florida before then. Is there any additive I should be adding to fuel?
Old 08-24-2014, 10:38 PM
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Not in my opinion. I feel the same about gasoline motors however. I work on all things internal combustion for a living and own an R&D grade dyno...but some people swear by additives, second only to oil threads for bringing out the true believers, Pandora's box is now open...lol
Old 08-27-2014, 02:42 PM
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Both Mercedes and BMW say no diesel fuel additives and that's been my policy with all three of my diesels.If you're referring to the old wives tale about diesels being hard to start in cold weather consider this:On two different occasions,once with my first "d" and once with my Bluetec,I've started a diesel in -30F (or lower) weather.Both times the car sat outside all night in -30F (or lower ) weather...no garage...no additives...no heaters.Just a tankful of *locally blended* diesel (that's the key).With my "d":started like a champ at -30F.My Bluetec (just last January):started like a champ at -40F.Locally blended diesel and a strong battery are the keys.




For the record,both occasions were in Quebec in January.
Old 08-28-2014, 12:25 AM
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For you guys in extreme cold situations there are effective additives, available at your local airport at the JetA pumps or in the FBO. Diesel and JetA are very similar fuels, as are far northern ground temps and air temps at 40k feet down here in the south.
Old 08-28-2014, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by listerone
Locally blended diesel and a strong battery are the keys.
I never use additives either. Our gas stations change the diesel to winter quality when it gets colder and the "filtering temperature" for the winter diesel is -44c.

Just make sure to fill up the tank with winter quality before it gets cold there Some forget it and wonder why their diesels cant keep running. Block heater is also good to have but I guess you wont need it since your moving to Florida
Old 08-28-2014, 09:41 AM
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For those concerned-------- MB makes available block heaters--screw the additives!!
Old 08-28-2014, 09:56 AM
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The only additives I use in diesel are those for adding sulfur when I can't get off road diesel. That said, I use neither OR Diesel or additives in the MB.
Old 08-28-2014, 08:01 PM
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I've even heard people back in the motherland Portugal adding a tiny bit of motor oil to the fuel. They said it helps lube the injectors.
Old 08-28-2014, 08:22 PM
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I've heard people swear by adding two stroke oil but diesel is just a fuel oil really so the benefits seem sublime at best to me?
Old 08-28-2014, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Micah / AF1 Rac
I've heard people swear by adding two stroke oil but diesel is just a fuel oil really so the benefits seem sublime at best to me?
The problem with diesels and the new low sulfur fuels is the cetane is reduced. This means the power is reduced as is lubricity. If you run a diesel (other than MB) on low sulfur diesel and on off road diesel, you will feel a difference in the power output.
Old 10-06-2014, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by boardboy330
The problem with diesels and the new low sulfur fuels is the cetane is reduced. This means the power is reduced as is lubricity. If you run a diesel (other than MB) on low sulfur diesel and on off road diesel, you will feel a difference in the power output.
This is completely untrue and bad advice.
Cetane is related to drivability and not fuel economy, power, or lubricity. Off road low sulfur diesel is illegal to use in on road vehicles and may damage the newer tech diesels' emission systems.

Last edited by Pierre Louis; 10-06-2014 at 04:34 AM.
Old 10-15-2014, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Pierre Louis
This is completely untrue and bad advice.
Cetane is related to drivability and not fuel economy, power, or lubricity. Off road low sulfur diesel is illegal to use in on road vehicles and may damage the newer tech diesels' emission systems.
Cetane gives the ability to burn off the fuel more quickly and efficiently. Cetane is directly related to the power and economy of the fuel and it's ability to work in an engine. If you want to look at it broadly, Cetane and Octane are the same thing - the higher the number, the better the fuel efficiency. Lubricity is directly effected by the amount of sulfur in the fuel. Hence the anti wear and lubricity additives that are put into diesels that are being sold in the US. I appreciate your comment, but it's baseless in fact. Feel free to take a few minutes and research Cetane and why low (ultra low) sulfur diesels need additives. Interesting reading.

EDIT: Read this article: http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...t/a/cetane.htm

Notice that the diesel numbers are 48 for regular and 55 for premium. We have 40 here...that is normal.

Last edited by boardboy330; 10-15-2014 at 08:06 AM.
Old 10-20-2014, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by boardboy330
Cetane gives the ability to burn off the fuel more quickly and efficiently. Cetane is directly related to the power and economy of the fuel and it's ability to work in an engine. If you want to look at it broadly, Cetane and Octane are the same thing - the higher the number, the better the fuel efficiency. Lubricity is directly effected by the amount of sulfur in the fuel. Hence the anti wear and lubricity additives that are put into diesels that are being sold in the US. I appreciate your comment, but it's baseless in fact. Feel free to take a few minutes and research Cetane and why low (ultra low) sulfur diesels need additives. Interesting reading.

EDIT: Read this article: http://alternativefuels.about.com/od...t/a/cetane.htm

Notice that the diesel numbers are 48 for regular and 55 for premium. We have 40 here...that is normal.
Your reference doesn't mention any improvement in fuel economy. Its more complicated. Here is an actual scientific study which shows no statistical difference regarding fuel efficiency for different cetane level fuels. There is no standard for "premium diesel" regarding cetane.

PL
Old 10-22-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Pierre Louis
Your reference doesn't mention any improvement in fuel economy. Its more complicated. Here is an actual scientific study which shows no statistical difference regarding fuel efficiency for different cetane level fuels. There is no standard for "premium diesel" regarding cetane.

PL
They didn't study fuel efficiency specifically, but studied the efficiency of the engine during operation and it proved cetane directly affects efficiency. From the study you posted: "Fuel cetane number strongly affects the ignition delay and combustion phasing of this single- injection mode of low-temperature premixed diesel combustion." That was the first conclusion of the study.
Old 10-22-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by boardboy330
They didn't study fuel efficiency specifically, but studied the efficiency of the engine during operation and it proved cetane directly affects efficiency. From the study you posted: "Fuel cetane number strongly affects the ignition delay and combustion phasing of this single- injection mode of low-temperature premixed diesel combustion." That was the first conclusion of the study.
Sorry to disappoint you, but you are reading into why cetane is important and making an assumption that has no proof.

Here is another paper you might consider: http://www.akenergyauthority.org/PDF...0Additives.pdf

Efficiency
Although typically less than 40% of the energy in diesel fuel is converted to electricity in diesel generator sets (or gensets), there is limited room for improvement in diesel engine efficiency that can be achieved by modifying the fuel. This is due to the thermodynamic limit to the efficiency of the diesel cycle, losses due to friction in the engine, and inefficiency of the electric generator. Estimating the amount of energy that is left for the engine to produce electricity based on these limiting factors provides some context for the potential impact of fuel additives.
Even with the outstanding improvements in diesel engine technology afforded by electronic control systems and by adapting fuel injection to changing engine conditions, the overall efficiency of diesel combustion cycles is limited by thermodynamics. This much-studied subject of compression combustion shows that the theoretical maximum ability to convert the chemical energy of a fuel into work in an ideal compression combustion cycle is limited to around 60% [67]. The exact limit depends upon properties of the engine itself (e.g., compression ratio of the engine and when in the cycle the exhaust is expelled in relation to the completion of combustion) rather than the fuel. For non-ideal compression combustion in a relatively small diesel engine, the efficiency is limited to less than 40% primarily due to irreversible processes in the combustion [68].
Today in Alaska's utilities, efficiencies on the order of 15 KWh/gallon have been reported for utilities using relatively large engines running on available commercial diesel fuels. This represents an overall thermal efficiency of about 37%. Since the electrical generator itself is nominally 90% efficient (depending upon load) due to its mechanical losses, these diesel engines appear to be run very near their maximum possible efficiency. Smaller engines tend to be less efficient: in Alaska utilities smaller diesel engines are generally reported to be in the range of 12 to 14 kwh/gallon, corresponding to 30 to 35% overall thermal efficiency if they are running on No. 2 diesel.
Lower efficiencies are realized for all engines running at low loads and for smaller versus larger engines. These factors are important considerations in electrical utility powerhouse design and operation.
It seems obvious that much more energy could be used by extracting heat energy from the exhaust, where about 40% of the diesel fuel energy ends up. An additional 20% of the diesel fuel energy ends up heating the engine cooling water. Utilizing diesel gensets as combined heat and power plants has the potential to improve the system efficiency much more than fuel additives could. In the early 1980s, many plants incorporated recovered heat to schools or other facilities when relative fuel prices increased. As fuel prices decreased in the mid-1980s, several of those systems fell into disrepair. With fuel price increases of nearly 300% in the past ten years, such systems are now being repaired or newly designed. Partnerships between power plant owners and heat users such as water and sewer systems, schools and other facilities are increasing. Worth noting also is that the new low sulfur fuels emit less particulates and less sulfur-containing compounds (high sulfur fuels result in a high sulfuric acid dew point, resulting in rapid corrosion of exhaust stacks—new fuels don’t have this problem), allowing for better heat recovery systems.
A pretty nice synopsis is here: http://www.chevron.com/documents/pdf...TechReview.pdf

FUEL ECONOMY
Here again, engine design is more important than fuel properties. However, for a given engine used for a particular duty, fuel economy is related to the heating value of the fuel. In North America fuel economy is customarily expressed as output per unit volume, e.g., miles per gallon. The fuel economy standard in other parts of the world is expressed as volume used per unit distance – liters per 100 kilometers. Therefore, the relevant units for heating value are heat per volume (British thermal unit [Btu] per gallon or kilojoules per liter/cubic meter). Heating value per volume is directly proportional to density when other fuel properties are unchanged. Each degree increase in American Petroleum Industry (API) gravity (0.0054 specific gravity decrease) equates to approximately two percent decrease in fuel energy content.
ASTM International specifications limit how much the heating value of a particular fuel can be increased. Increasing density involves changing the fuel’s chemistry – by increasing aromatics content – or changing its distillation profile by raising the initial boiling point, end point, or both. Increasing aromatics is limited by the cetane number requirement
4
3 Khair, Magdi: “Combustion in Diesel Engines,” ECOpoint Consultants, http://www.DieselNet.com
(aromatics have lower cetane numbers [see page 36]), and changing the distillation profile is limited by the 90 percent distillation temperature requirement. The API gravity at 60°F (15.6°C) for No. 2 diesel fuel is between 30 and 42. The specific gravity, at 60/60°F, and the density, at 15.6°C, are between 0.88 and 0.82. (See Chapter 4 – Diesel Fuel Refining and Chemistry for an explanation of fuel blending, density, and API gravity.)
Combustion catalysts may be the most vigorously promoted diesel fuel aftermarket additive (see page 81). However, the Southwest Research Institute, under the auspices of the U.S. Transportation Research Board, ran back-to-back tests of fuels with and without a variety of combustion catalysts. These tests showed that a catalyst usually made “almost no change in either fuel economy or exhaust soot levels.”4
While some combustion catalysts can reduce emissions, it is not surprising that they
do not have a measurable impact on fuel economy. To be effective in improving fuel economy, a catalyst must cause the engine to burn fuel more completely. However, there is not much room for improvement. With unadditized5 fuel, diesel engine combustion efficiency is typically greater than 98 percent. Many ongoing design improvements to reduce emissions may have some potential for improving fuel economy. However, several modern emissions control strategies clearly reduce fuel economy, sometimes
up to several percent.
PL
Old 10-22-2014, 10:13 AM
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I won't argue with you. Here is the Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetane_number Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] ), please feel free to read up. All the references at the bottom of the page are clearly noted and you can do as much research as you like.

There is no assumption being made, Cetane is a specific number for a specific reason. It is well documented and all of the articles and information you have provided say the same things I have. Not sure what the game is, but I don't have time to play it anymore. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I took the time to read the papers you added...are you even reading this stuff? Word for word explains what I said to be true. Only issue I have is the part about lubricity "not necessarily" being lowered when removing Sulfur...yet Ultra Low Sulfur fuels and those fuels with sulfur being removed require lubricity additives. It seems to me...If I tell you when I punch you in the nose - your nose will bleed. You are making the argument I am assuming you have blood in your body - for your nose to bleed. I have worked around Diesel Performance for years, I understand how they work and how to fix most engines. I don't need a paper or study to know what will and won't happen if certain things are changed in a fuel. You remove sulfur, you lower lubricity (as shown by the need for additives). I understand the need to remove sulfur - but there is a consequence for doing so. Additionally, cetane is directly related to power and economy in an engine. Cetane level shows ignition timing, which is related to engine performance. Better performance and lubricity mean better atomization - which means better economy.

I wish you the best with your research.

Last edited by boardboy330; 10-22-2014 at 10:26 AM.
Old 10-22-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by boardboy330
I won't argue with you. Here is the Wiki page Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] ), please feel free to read up. All the references at the bottom of the page are clearly noted and you can do as much research as you like.

There is no assumption being made, Cetane is a specific number for a specific reason. It is well documented and all of the articles and information you have provided say the same things I have. Not sure what the game is, but I don't have time to play it anymore. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I took the time to read the papers you added...are you even reading this stuff? Word for word explains what I said to be true. Only issue I have is the part about lubricity "not necessarily" being lowered when removing Sulfur...yet Ultra Low Sulfur fuels and those fuels with sulfur being removed require lubricity additives. It seems to me...If I tell you when I punch you in the nose - your nose will bleed. You are making the argument I am assuming you have blood in your body - for your nose to bleed. I have worked around Diesel Performance for years, I understand how they work and how to fix most engines. I don't need a paper or study to know what will and won't happen if certain things are changed in a fuel. You remove sulfur, you lower lubricity (as shown by the need for additives). I understand the need to remove sulfur - but there is a consequence for doing so. Additionally, cetane is directly related to power and economy in an engine. Cetane level shows ignition timing, which is related to engine performance. Better performance and lubricity mean better atomization - which means better economy.

I wish you the best with your research.
From your wikipedia reference:
In short, the higher the Cetane number the more easily the fuel will combust in a compression setting (such as a diesel engine). The characteristic diesel "knock" occurs when fuel that has been injected into the cylinder ignites after a delay causing a late shock wave. Minimizing this delay results in less unburned fuel in the cylinder and less intense knock. Therefore higher-cetane fuel usually causes an engine to run more smoothly and quietly. This does not necessarily translate into greater efficiency, although it may in certain engines.
There is nothing that states a particular engine designed for a particular cetane (and they do adjust using the engine management system) will change its efficiency with cetane that differs but is within design parameters. But, as I said originally, cetane affects drivability i.e. smoothness, noise, as well as emissions.

If you read the references I mentioned, you might find that the diesel combustion cycle is extremely efficient and cannot be improved due to the laws of thermodynamics. As a mechanic, fixing something that doesn't work will improve its efficiency, sure. But cetane won't do it.

You have not mentioned any reference or statement that refutes this.

PL

Last edited by Pierre Louis; 10-22-2014 at 12:15 PM.
Old 10-22-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by boardboy330
The problem with diesels and the new low sulfur fuels is the cetane is reduced. This means the power is reduced as is lubricity. If you run a diesel (other than MB) on low sulfur diesel and on off road diesel, you will feel a difference in the power output.
ASTM: https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/....d975.2007.pdf

Xl.4 Celane Number
X1.4.1 Cetane number is a measure of the ignition quality of the fuel and influences combustion roughness. The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions. Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to assure maximum fuel availability.
I wish you well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

PL

Last edited by Pierre Louis; 10-22-2014 at 01:16 PM.

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