nelbur

Is the dealer that tested the fuel the same dealer that supposedly did your oil changes? If so, I wouldn't believe a thing they say. Of course, I tend not to believe dealers in general.

Tobsicle

No, the original owner had the oil changed at their Benz dealer up to 50,000 miles. At 60,000 we had the oil cooler replaced at a non Benz dealer, they performed what seems like a half assed oil change at that time. The vehicle is now at 76,000 miles in another state, the dealer there is the one that tested the fuel. I did read somewhere that using fuel contamination as an excuse is basically saying that they have no clue...

arto_wa

I read couple of times and it looks like the vehicle went from 50,000 miles to 76,000 miles with no engine oil change, but some amount (5 quarts?) of unknown "semi synthetic" oil was added to the dealer oil at 60,000 miles.

GLKpaul

Ouch

Tobsicle

That seems to be the case. I guess we just assumed that they'd change the oil when we took it in for an oil leak.

dave2001auto

30% sulfur ? No way. Maybe 30% bio-diesel.
Sounds more like the wrong oil.
Back in c.a. 2000 Mercedes has an oil failure issues with the extended oil change intervals with M1 in the gas models. Mercedes paid for the repairs. Likely the wrong oil (not M1) or no oil change.
Possible ester based oil can be worse with water contamination in the oil. Short trips in cold weather?
My reading is the new 229.52 seems to be branched hydrocarbons and not "true European synthetic oil". Semi-synthetic might be bad news.

fireman1073

check this out
http://www.stephensservice.com/bluet...ssuesproblems/

Carsy

Wow, this article exposes a few issues.

Thanks for posting.

If nothing else it advises to change the oil & filters much more regularly than recommended. Oil is cheap compared with the consequences .

Tobsicle

I saw this before and sent the link to Mercedes USA. We'll see if they respond.

dave2001auto

The SAPS level seems to have increased from 229.51 to 229.52 oil. The viscosity also decreased from thin xW40 to xW30. There are also claims that the new 229.52 oil is more resistant to oxidation than the 229.51 oil.
The thinner oil could decrease the oil temperature and have less coking. That would be decent on lots of variables such as pump flow rate, local oil pressurized and return passages.
I am tempted to use Rotella T6 5W40 but the oil seems too thick for winters (under 10 F) to me. But the 5W30 229.51 oil seems too thin for desert driving in the summers. I only do less than 10,000 miles per car.

nelbur

I guess I don't understand your "too thick for winters" comment as they are both like 5 wt oil in the cold, i.e. they have essentially the same cold viscosity. I understand your "too thin" comment on the w30. I assume they think w30 oil will be slower to sludge than w40 oil in blutecs since it is thinner to start with. I like the Rotella T6 in a w210 diesel, but of course it does not have the sludging reputation.

dave2001auto

senior moment thinking of older 15w40. Mercedes 229.51 40 was on the lower end of the 40 range and 30 was on the higher range of the 30 oil. I was thinking that the 30 oil could be cooler and thus cook less but too thin. 40 may not flow as well and cook

arto_wa

Let the engine idle and lube oil in the turbo bearings etc. to cool down some at end of each trip and oil coking should not be a problem.

Assuming it's approved proper oil for the application!

krd2023

Thanks, fireman1073. This article does have great information and insight from someone who appears to be a knowledgeable source. Since there's a chance MBUSA may send the author a "cease and desist" order as they did to me (see my letter from MBUSA under Post #90 in this thread I started), I've pasted the content below from the link above so we all have access to it in the event the author is forced to remove the content from his website. Here's to more helpful information for this audience ....

December 2016
"MERCEDES-BENZ & SPRINTER BLUETEC DIESEL ISSUES/PROBLEMS

{Ed note: From the volume of calls & emails I’ve gotten, it certainly would appear this article has hit a raw nerve with a whole lot of Mercedes & Sprinter BlueTec diesel owners. In order to keep myself out of hot water, this article is strictly my opinion. Mercedes-Benz would never approve of what I‘m saying. Even though I’ve spent the last 50 years working exclusively on Mercedes-Benz, I’m fairly sure they would tell you I don’t know what I’m talking about.
I’m also not encouraging anyone to disable or circumvent the emission control systems on their BlueTec diesel. Quite the contrary; my recommendations are intended to keep your diesel operating at peak efficiency. This is about saving you a lot of money & aggravation.
I understand how concerned people are about Mercedes-Benz BlueTec diesel problems. I would love to answer everyone’s questions, but there aren’t enough hours in the day. Mercedes has pumped out so much misinformation about BlueTec diesel oil, most dealers don‘t know what‘s the “official“ oil. I can‘t keep answering everyone‘s questions one by one. In case you haven‘t heard, MB is getting hit with Class Action law suits & Justice Department investigations. They don‘t want to give out detailed technical information, because that gives ammo to lawyers. “Officially“, MB’s current approved oil is MB229.52. MB229.51 is no longer approved. The newest EPA diesel oil rating is CK-4. If you want to know more, read the article. I wish I could, but I can‘t keep answering all the emails & phone calls.}

. . . . . .
Long time Mercedes owners fondly remember how rock solid dependable their old diesels were. Ya, they smelled & belched out black soot, but that was part of the “ambiance“. Those days are long gone! The black soot & ridiculous NOx (Nitrous Oxides) can no longer tolerated. BlueTec diesels are nothing like their grandfathers. BlueTec diesel passenger cars & Sprinter vans are very popular. They have great power & excellent fuel economy. They will run great, until they don’t. As you’re driving along with the A/C on & going about your daily routine, owners are oblivious to what’s going on in their engine. Sprinter owners use them for work or in motor homes. I’ll admit, they have many great qualities. Believe it or not though, Dante’s Inferno resides under your hood. When it’s freezing cold outside, it’s hard to comprehend just how hot your BlueTec is running. If you’re setting in a Phoenix freeway traffic jam in August, the oil in the crankcase is the same boiling pitch found in Dante’s Bolgia #5 in the eighth circle of Hell. I’m actually amazed a BlueTec can take the abuse it does. A typical owner goes through a series of enormous repair bills with no apparent end in sight. Then, they either get rid of the vehicle or start looking for a second job to pay the repair bills.

Here’s how a BlueTec works & what goes wrong. BlueTec “clean diesel technology” is anything but simple. Stop & go city driving in cold weather, is the worst possible life for a BlueTec. From a emission control standpoint, this is also the toughest to meet. The problem is, the EPA believes in a “one size fits all”. In order to meet the emission standard for Boston, the BlueTec’s sold in Miami are identical. To meet emission controls in cold weather, they need to get the engine up to operating temperature as fast as possible. That & fuel economy, is the reason for very low viscosity engine oil (5W/30), & the belly panels under the engine. Mercedes says it’s for “noise encapsulation” & to protect the fan belt from road crud. They’re really there to trap the heat during warm-up. The problem is, the 5W/30 oil & the belly panels are a major problem in hot weather.
Europe is big on diesels. Fuel cost are much higher there & that’s a major factor in this equation. With fuel cost so high, Europeans can justify a diesel’s high maintenance cost. If it wasn’t for the high fuel prices in Europe, you would never see Mercedes selling diesel’s in America. In America however, low fuel cost give a gas engine the cost advantage.
I figure about 2% of the diesel owners would actually do the proper maintenance if Mercedes explained it to them.
98% of the dealer mechanics hate BlueTec’s & want nothing to do with them. Dealer mechanics work under the “Flat Rate” commission system. They loose money every time the Dispatcher hands them the keys to your diesel. There is no end to the Check Engine lights, oil leaks, & comebacks. Customers complain that their car never gets fixed the first time & it cost a fortune. Most owners think they can treat a BlueTec the same as a gas model. Most owners actually think they bought a economy vehicle. Lots of diesel owners brag about using the cheapest oil they could find at Walmart. By the time a neglected BlueTec is out of warranty, it‘s to hard for a mechanic to fix the current problem without cleaning up the past neglect. Customers don’t want to believe they need to clean up the mess in their engine, & they won’t pay for it. It’s a guaranteed Come Back. Customers bounce from shop to shop, because no one wants to face the fundamental problems. You probably thought your car is covered by a new car warranty. After multiple visits & a mechanic has thrown thousands of dollars in parts at your problem; Mercedes-Benz won’t pay the bill. Mercedes kicks back the warranty claim & the dealer gets to eat the mess. How many times do you think that happens, before the dealer gets feed up? Owners email me all the time, saying the dealer wants them to pay for a warranty repair because of “fuel contamination”. “Fuel contamination” is code for “we don’t know what’s wrong & we’re not spending any more money to fix your BlueTec”. When you hear that, start haggling with the Sales Department for a trade-in on a new “gas” model. Better still; save yourself the grief & lease the vehicle for the warranty period. Buy the Mercedes Maintenance program & let them change the oil every 20000 miles. Get even with them by giving them back a worn out pile of junk at the end of the lease. The cost per mile will be far less than owning it for 150000 miles.

All diesel engine manufactures must comply with the same regulations. This is not unique to Mercedes-Benz. To comply with the regulations, engineers had to increase the diesel combustion temperature…. a lot!
This is where things get complicated, so I have to assume you have some technical knowledge or this would take forever to explain. If owners did a few basic things when their BlueTec was new, they would eliminate 95% of the BlueTec problems. The right engine oil is the key to BlueTec happiness. Here’s where you get my disclaimer. This is all my opinion & NOT approved by Mercedes-Benz. In fact, they will void your warranty if you tell them. Then again, they’ll void your warranty if you use their perviously recommended MB229.51 oil. This oil is still widely available in most auto parts stores at a cheap price, & it will ruin your engine. (I know, it’s stupid.)
I honestly don’t think Mercedes or the EPA, understand anything about oil or how it works. Mercedes is constantly publishing contradictory & misleading information. They must think no one actually reads what they publish, so why let accuracy get in the way? They have everyone thinking their new “approved” oil (MB229.52) is the only oil possible & anything else will ruin the engine & the emission system. Their past “approved” oil (MB229.51) ruined plenty of engines & Mercedes pretends they don’t know what happened.

BlueTec diesel’s run exhaust temperatures of 1400°F. If you drive in the mountains or haul a lot of weight, the exhaust temperature can reach 1800°F. This heat is transferred straight into the engine oil. Oil is like water, in that when it gets hot, it boils off steam / vapor. This vapor is called “Noack Volatility”. This & the “Viscosity Index” (VI), are the most important things know about a oil. I’ll explain more later. Confusion comes from all the different ratings applied to diesel oil. This is no accident. Everybody involved is trying to make money from their recommendation. This is going to hurt your brain, but here goes. For our discussion, there are two “governmental” oil rating agencies. API (USA) & ACEA (Europe). Then you have the auto manufactures. They want to make money on oil changes, so they all have their own oil rating that‘s different than API & ACEA. The API newest rating number for BlueTec diesels, is CK-4. The ACEA has C4 or E9/12. They are all officially approved for BlueTec diesels, but Mercedes likes to say they‘re not. Viscosity is another matter. Mercedes says their oil needs to be 5W/30. Most other diesel builders use 15W/40. Low viscosity oil is for cold (below freezing) weather & fuel economy. High viscosity oil is for warm weather, fuel dilution, & keeps the oil from turning into asphalt. All the “approved” oils have the Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, & Zinc removed; low SAPS. They say this protects the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF). The DPF stops the black soot. The problem is, your engine likes the Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus & Zinc. And this is where I part ways with Mercedes & the EPA “approved oil“; in my opinion. Screw the DPF. The “approved” oils ruin the rest of the engine simply to protect the DPF. It’s easier to deal with a dirty DPF than to replace the engine & the rest of the emission system. BlueTec diesels run stupid hot. We use Motul 300V 20W/60, or Redline synthetic 10W/60 API CF/SL oil with 2 bottles of Zinc oil additive. Among other things, Zinc protects the Timing Chain & the high pressure fuel pump. Motul & Redline are both “ester” synthetic oil. Synthetic oils are not all the same. Ester synthetic is better with the high heat. Add one quart of BG “DOC” each oil change. It will help raise the Viscosity Index & reduce the Noack Volatility. There are other excellent oils, but they are not on the “approved“ list. Change the oil every 5000 miles. Use a DPF fuel system cleaner on every fill-up. We use Liqui Moly or BG “245” in the fuel to clean the DPF. I know, I know, this violates every Mercedes-Benz oil recommendation & it will “void your warranty”. I know this scares lots of people. They don’t understand all of this oil stuff & give Mercedes the benefit of the doubt. They built it, they should know what oil to use!
Officially, Mercedes wants Low SAPS oil. SAPS is “Sulphated Ash & Phosphorus“, both of which are normally found in motor oils for various positive reasons. The EPA says SAPS prematurely clog up the DPF’s in modern diesels. Yes, but only because the rest of the oil is junk & a poorly designed crankcase ventilation system doesn‘t help matters. I get calls all the time from Attorneys wanting me to testify for a BlueTec owner suing Mercedes-Benz for their burnt up engine. “They had all their oil changes done at the dealer, & now Mercedes won‘t help them.” (I’ve heard it all. No, I won’t testify against Mercedes.) When your engine is a pile of sludge & Mercedes tells you to “get lost, or we’ll have you arrested”, maybe you’ll wish you had used a non-approved oil. (My wife says I’m getting to be a grouchy old man. She‘s usually right, but I know more about oil than she does.)

Now, this is where this gets real technical, so I‘ll try to keep it simple. The engine has fundamental design problems that get worse with the miles. The sooner you get ahead of the maintenance, the fewer problems you’ll have. Most of the problems with the BlueTec engine & emission system, are all related to each other. Once they start, it’s a cascade effect. Often we’ll see a car for the first time with the Check Engine light on. The customer just wants to fix what’s wrong, & nothing else. They don’t want to hear any story about maintenance. To properly diagnose a BlueTec diesel, we need a maintenance baseline. Fluids & filters need to be current, i.e. clean. It’s hard to know how slugged up the engine actually is. Add “engine oil flush” to the old oil before you drive to the shop. This will loosen the sludge & let it drain out. Software updates for the engine control module, must be current. For example, Mercedes has updated the software for the BlueTec ECU, 23 times at last count. (You might say they have a problem, & you might be right.) The old ECU software injects to much fuel & it dilutes the engine oil. That’s one reason we need 10W/60 oil. 60 weight oil fights “fuel dilution“. If you start out with 5W/30, it doesn’t take much fuel to lower it to 15 weight viscosity. After 5000 miles of normal driving, the engine oil is half diesel fuel. We also want 60 weight oil to maintain the oil’s “Noack Volatility” & “Viscosity Index (VI)“. The higher the “VI” on the Material Data Sheet, (190 is great) the better the oil stands up to heat. The viscosity index of an oil is a measure of its tendency to change viscosity with temperature changes. The higher the viscosity index (VI) the more consistent an oil’s viscosity is with temperature changes. The lower the “Noack Volatility”, (5% is great) the better. Guess what? Mercedes does not publish this data for their MB229.52 oil. Why not? Because it’s nowhere close to the best quality. The EPA allows a maximum of 15% for “Noack Volatility”. I suspect Mercedes MB229.52 oil is at the maximum.
Quality oil companies publish a Material Data Sheet which spells out the technical data about their oil. It’s the only way you can actually compare oils. A better oil with high “VI” & a low “Noack Volatility”, will not let the SAPS get into the DPF in the first place. It’s only crappy oil that needs to be low SAPS.
Never run Bio-diesel. When it gets in the engine oil, & it always does, it makes a BIG mess. The Air Filters also get plugged up very easy. In service bulletin LI07.07-P-048060, Mercedes kind-of says to change the air filters every 18500 miles. They can’t just come right out & say it in plain English, so they put it in a bulletin that customers never see. It still says 40000 miles in your Owners Manual. That booklet you read when you bought your car, remember? Remember the part where Mercedes said to reduce oil change intervals if you drive in “severe operating conditions”. Owners think that means the Baja 1000. Actually, it means “stop & go city driving”. Every set of air filters we see with 18500 miles (where they came up with that stupid number, I’ll never know) is plugged solid with bugs & dirt. Air Filter replacement is critical. Dirty air filters send the crankcase pressure into orbit. The more pressure in the crankcase, the more oil leaks you’ll have. Mercedes has upgraded the air filters several times. The Oil Separator has been update 11 times at last count. It’s the Oil Separator that allows the boiling oil vapor to be sucked into the Turbo Charger in the first place. Instead, crappy oil & a lame Oil Separator let hot oil vapor enter the Turbocharger & the rest of the emission system. Mercedes only put one Oil Separator on the right side of the engine. This is a poor design & also adds to the problem of hot oil vapor not returning to the crankcase where it belongs. Mercedes tried to cut cost by not putting a Oil Separator on both sides of the engine. We’ll see if they put two on their new engine.

Mercedes & others, make it sound like “Low SAPS” is some super duper oil that’s better for your diesel engine. The MB229.52 5W/30 oil Mercedes “recommends”, vaporizes much easier when it gets hot than 10W/60 oil. It’s just like the steam coming off boiling water. In their service bulletins, Mercedes bends over backwards to say this hot oil vapor is “normal”….. until you’re out of warranty. Then, no one will connect the dots for you & explain what’s causing all your problems. If you use a better oil with a high VI rating, a high Flash Point (over 400°F), & a low Noack Volatility rating; you will prevent 95% of the problems that plague the BlueTec. The sooner you start, the fewer problems. (Once again, this is not approved by Mercedes & they will void your warranty. I realize going down this road takes a real understanding of how oil actually works.)
The plastic Air Intake at the Turbocharger also melts from the extreme heat. The hot oil vapor that was “normally” going into the Turbocharger; instead leaks onto the oil cooler & out the drain holes in the block. The Swirl Motor Valve downstream of the Turbo also fills with hot oil vapor. Once this oil & sludge begin to accumulate, the valve becomes inoperative & blows a fuse that controls many other sensors required to properly operate the engine & emission system. This will immediately place the vehicle into limp home mode & limit the rpm to 3000. It also causes a check engine light & numerous OBDII Codes. If you’re really lucky, the metal flaps of the Swirl Valve break & get sucked into the engine. Mercedes admits to Timing Chain failures on all 2011 to 2015 OM642 Diesels. I believe the Zinc will help prevent the Timing Chain from failing. Once again, it’s a cascade of problems that starts with poor quality oil & dirty air filters. There are many other important qualities motor oil needs to have, but these are the basic things. The newest diesel oil ratings from the SAE, are CK-4 & FA-4. CK-4 is for 2016 & older. FA-4 is for 2017 diesels. Most people think newer is better. Not true when it comes to diesel oil. Maybe the CK-4 will hold up. If you’re to nervous to really trust the 10W/60 oil, you can use any CK-4 15W/40 oil & be 100% legal with the Mercedes warranty. I would trust the new CK-4 oil over the MB229.52. They say the FA-4 is NOT backward compatible. That’s code for “it’s junk”.

When new customers come in with their Check Engine light on, it’s not just a matter of fixing what the fault code says. All the basic maintenance of the engine must, I repeat, must be clean & in good working order. This is the number one reason these cars don’t get fixed on the first attempt. The mechanic is trying to make the customer happy & keep the cost down. So he tries to fix the symptom & not the cause. The customer doesn’t want to spend the money on proper maintenance & tells the mechanic everything is in great shape, when it’s not.
Almost all of the important parts on this engine have been updated by Mercedes to solve some sort of emission or oil leak problem. Almost any problem the BlueTec has, is a result of the same core design problems that bedevils every BlueTec made. The reality is, it’s likely you’ll need to replace many of these parts at some point.

Depending on where you live, you can have completely different issues than a different part of the country. Vehicles that drive short trips in freezing weather, will have far more problems than the same vehicle driven at higher speeds in warm climates. Cold weather causes condensation to build up in the oil & that makes matters worse. If you live where it’s often below freezing, I would use the 5W/30, CK-4 oil, & change it every 3000 miles. Switch to the 10W/60 in the summer & go 5000 miles.
To summarize, what oil to use in different areas & driving conditions.
Cold weather & city driving. Use 5w/30 CK-4 rated oil. Change every 3000 miles. Brand doesn’t matter.
Cold weather & mountain driving. Use 15W/40 CK-4 rated oil. Change every 3000 miles.
Everything else, use 10W/60 or 20W/60 & change every 5000 miles. Motul 300V 20W/60, Redline 20W/60 Motorcycle oil, Liqui Moly 10W/60, Amzoil Motorcycle oils are all excellent. There are other excellent oils in the 10W/60 range. They may or may not have the CF rating. (I know, that’s not what Mercedes says.) Use BG “DOC” on every oil change. You can get it on Amazon. (I honestly wish we didn’t have to concoct our own oil for diesel engines. I totally understand the sophisticated chemical mixture that very smart people blend into oil. This is not simple. But something is drastically wrong with the way the rules are now written.)
Run DPF fuel cleaner on every tank of fuel. Keep the AdBlue tank close to full. In subzero weather, you don’t want to risk it splitting the tank. Use a name brand AdBlue. Put a bottle of engine oil flush in your oil right before you drive in for a oil change. Get a super magnet drain plug from Dimple Magnetic Drain Plugs.
Take the Belly panels off under the engine. It needs all the air flow it can get. If you live where it’s real cold, you may leave them on.
Only the diesel engine has Motor Mount support arms that are filled with a special grey “heat sink” material that’s designed to withstand extremely high heat. They don’t want engine heat to boil the Motor Mounts. This engine runs so hot, that it melts the grey “heat sink” material & causes a grey sludge to leak out under the engine. If the engine runs so hot it can melt this stuff, what do you think it’s doing to the oil?
Change the Air Filters every 20000 miles.
Fuel filter every 30000 miles.
Get the latest software updates for you engine ECU. As of this writing, Mercedes has 23 updates to the software, & this is very important for the life of your engine. They don’t say what the updates do, but I believe they are trying to reduce the fuel injected for the DPF regeneration. Excessive fuel washes into the crankcase oil & causes the oil to sludge. (Engineered like no other car in the world.)
Drive it like you stole it. It helps keep the DPF clean."

kajtek1

Too long to read from forum scrolling, so I will leave it for other time.
When I am sorry krd about your experience with 350 Bluetec, I am gaining more and more respect to my 320 Bluetec.
I just sold the house and moved using E320 pulling utility trailer.
Since my storage was 15 miles away, instead of renting big trailer to match my F350, I decided to make like 16 fast trips with Bluetec.
Even with small trailer it could deliver 28 mpg.
Than last week I made quick trip to Las Vegas.
560 miles in less than 6 hr of driving, 7 hr from door to door.
Even cruising 110 mph the beast delivers like 28 mpg.
Don't have direct comparison, but gasoline model at those speeds was dropping to single digits.

exhaustgases

Sorry to resurrect this thread, its just so interesting. And just wow, last time I saw a mess even close to what is in that sump it was a massive coolant leak in at 3306 in a D7 dozer, I never saw anything even close to that in the old non pcv Chevrolet 6 cylinder engines, and they some times could be loaded with sludge in the top end rocker cover.
So I was under the impression that full synthetic oils would not do that? Synthetic is suppose to be a very high temp oil, that is what the jets use. And as far as viscosity of the base oil, the higher number is a better thing for the diesel engine, to recommend a low viscosity 0W-30 is asking for trouble.

Glyn M Ruck

Nonsense

exhaustgases

Its not nonsense. You'll find a lot of industrial engine manufactures don't even recommend a multi viscosity oil. And low viscosity for a diesel is just not smart, unless I guess if you are running .0003 bearing clearances (yeah being sarcastic). If you study viscosity vs temperature and load capacity you'll see why some manufactures recommend a higher viscosity oil as well as not recommending multi vis motor oil.

mbdiesel12

I hesitate wading into this debate about oil viscosity for fear of starting the "oil wars" so prevalent on other car blogs. I've spent many hours trying to reach my own conclusions and am now satisfied with my findings. For this reason I won't continue debating oils here for fear of starting a never ending, self-perpetuating discussion.

I'd like to make a couple of points:

1. I put a lot of credence in what Glyn says. He's a certified, experienced Tribologist.
2. I'm providing a link from an experienced, independent mechanical engineer who does independent oil testing with no ties to any marketing organizations. His credentials speak for themselves.
3. I value science and engineering facts over popular myth and hear-say information.
4. If you're a tech geek, car junky like me, please do yourself a favor and read the entire link I've attached. It's lengthy so don't just "cherry pick" certain sections. Try to understand the authors overall conclusions about oil. Particularly the section about viscosity vs wear protection.
5. Most importantly, reach your own conclusion about what you want in a motor oil. But please don't denigrate others for their conclusions. And remember, you can't "prove a negative".
6. The sections I found very informative are section 2 on viscosity and section 30 on lightweight diesel oil testing results. Note that the 3rd and 4th highest wear protection results came from 0w40 and 0w30 oils.

Here's the link: https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

Enjoy.

mbdiesel12

Here's a minor correction to my post. Excuse the typo. The 3rd and 4th highest oil protection results were from 0w40 and 0w20 oils. That helps explain why viscosity, hths, and temperature are not the final determinants of wear protection. It's really the EP (extreme pressure) additives of the oil manufacturer that influence wear the most (per the author).

exhaustgases

I like the guy too.

But there are also engineers and huge costly studies by manufactures of various engines, and like I said there is a reason for them to recommend or not recommend certain motor oil viscosities. The first number is the base oil 0W, is that water viscosity ? I don't know what a zero weight oil is. And then the polymers are added that will react with heat to supposed thicken the oil at temp. The Polymers are essentially rubber, so that could explain how in high heat and reactions with other chemicals why an oil sump could look as bad as in the photos in this thread. And again there is good reason for some manufactures to recommend and void warranties if a high viscosity straight weight oil is not used.

Carsy

Thanks MB diesel. - A pity that more European oils were not tested. ie Shell & Fuchs.

Here is the piece which interests me most:


Five Lightweight Diesel Oils Tested and Compared

Traditionally, heavy duty Diesel oils have been formulated specifically for Diesel engines, and have been intended for large trucks and heavy equipment. They have typically been 15W40 oils with a few 5W40’s available as well. But, all of those are 40 weight oils at normal operating temperature. When I have tested those heavy duty Diesel oils for their wear protection capability, their psi values were almost always rather low, indicating poor wear protection performance. So, their poor wear protection performance, and the fact that they typically reach the onset of thermal breakdown BEFORE most gasoline engine oils do, made it very clear that in general, heavy duty Diesel oils are a poor choice when it comes to providing the desired wear protection for High Performance and Racing gasoline engines. That also shows that anyone who uses heavy duty Diesel oil in High Performance and Racing gasoline engines, simply has no idea what they are doing.

However, those traditional Diesel oils, when used in the engines they are intended for, do not need to provide the excellent wear protection that we like to see in gasoline engine oils. Because, what most people aren’t aware of, is that Diesel engines are designed much more rugged and durable than gas engines. Diesel engines are designed with larger components than gasoline engines. And those larger components spread the load they see, out over larger areas, resulting in lower loading per square inch (psi). Therefore, even though these large truck and heavy equipment Diesel engines are hard working, they do not require oils that provide the high psi protection that we desire in our high performance gas engines. That’s why, what we often consider poor performing Diesel oils, work just fine in heavy equipment.

Diesel and gas engines are on a different scale when it comes to evaluation of their oils regarding wear protection capabilities. You cannot compare them straight across, because they are apples and oranges. Traditional heavy duty Diesel oils should be compared to other traditional heavy duty Diesel oils, unless they are used in gasoline engines. Then they need to meet gasoline engine standards, to provide the wear protection we desire in gasoline engines.

But, now it is becoming more and more common for motor oils to be formulated for BOTH Diesel and gas engines, which results in those oils providing much better wear protection, due to their far better psi values. These oils are generally intended for Diesel cars and light trucks, and they typically come in thinner, lighter viscosities which are desirable in those cars and light trucks.

The following five lightweight 5W30 diesel oils, four of which were formulated for both Diesel and gas engines, with the last one formulated only for Diesel engines, were tested late 2016 for their Wear Protection Capability at the normal test temperature of 230*F, which is representative of normal operating conditions. They were also tested for their onset of Thermal Breakdown points, rounded to the nearest 5* increment. They are ranked here just among themselves, based on their film strength/load carrying capability/shear resistance psi values.

The Wear Protection reference categories are:

Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection
90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection
75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection
60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection
Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection
.
The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.
.
5W30 Pentosin Pento Super Performance III, for gas and diesel engines, API S”M”, ACEA C3, synthetic, made in Germany = 122,711 psi .
.
Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 275*F .
.
However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. But, this oil only had a very small 3.5% drop in capability. And even at that elevated temperature, it produced an extremely impressive 118,477 psi, which still kept this much hotter and thinner oil in the INCREDIBLE Wear Protection Category.
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5W30 Mobil 1 ESP Formula (Emission System Protection), for diesel and gas engines, ACEA C2, C3, API SN, synthetic = 113,836 psi .
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Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 300*F .
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However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil had a significant 22.4% drop in capability. At that elevated temperature, it produced 88,381psi.
.
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5W30 Pennzoil Euro “AV” European Formula, for diesel and gas engines, ACEA C3, API SN, synthetic = 112,664 psi .
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Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 265*F .
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However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil had a large 29.2% drop in capability. At that elevated temperature, it produced 79,792 psi.
.
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5W30 Castrol Edge Professional “LL03”, Diesel oil, ACEA C3, gold bottle, synthetic = 107,067 psi.
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Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 275*F .
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However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil had a significant 18.2% drop in capability. At that elevated temperature, it produced 87,593 psi.
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5W30 Pennzoil Platinum Euro “L”, made from natural gas, for diesel and gas engines, ACEA C3, GM dexos “2” approved, API SN, synthetic = 97,051 psi .
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Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 275*F .
.
However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil only had an extremely small 0.55% drop in capability. At that elevated temperature, it produced 96,519 psi.
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As you can see, the wear protection capability of this group of Diesel oils was quite good. The top four oils were all in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category, and even the last place oil was still in the OUTSTANDING wear protection category. This group of lightweight 5W30 Diesel oils are among the very best Diesel oils I have ever tested.

Three other Diesel oils I tested previously, that also performed very well are:

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5W30 Mag 1, FMX, European Formula, API S”M”, ACEA C3-08, synthetic, for gas and diesel cars and light trucks = 111,622 psi

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Its onset of Thermal Breakdown = 280*F.
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However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. And this oil did experience a 17.1% drop in capability. At that elevated temperature, it produced 92,508 psi.

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5W40 Mag 1, FMX, European Formula, API SN, ACEA A3/B4, synthetic, for gas and diesel cars and light trucks = 109,147 psi

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5W30 Amsoil Series 3000 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil synthetic, API CI-4 PLUS, CF, SL, ACEA A3/B3, E2, E3, E5, E7 = 102,642 psi

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For people who feel compelled to run Diesel oil in gasoline engines, the 8 oils shown above are the best oils to consider for that. And if these particular oils were used for that purpose, the users WOULD actually know what they are doing.

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540 RAT

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mbdiesel12

You're right about not testing a lot of non-US oils but maybe the author will include more in the future. I'm lucky, however. My 2012 E350 BT calls for MB 229.51 oil.
Pentosin Super Performance III 5w30 was the #6 rated oil and is MB approved for 229.51. I lucked out with my wife's Acura too. It calls for a 0w20 oil so Quaker Sate Ultimate Durabilty, ranked #4, fits the bill.

I hope people find the article interesting. It certainly changed a few perceptions/mis-perceptions that I had.

Glyn M Ruck

Mercedes recommended oil viscosity is totally appropriate for their engines & component clearances. Have you any idea the exhaustive testing they do prior to approving service products. 0W-30's & 0W-40's are totally appropriate for use from the Arctic to the middle of the Sahara in their engines.

In addition to this diesels do not stress their oils the way gasoline engines do. They are rev limited by the combustion process & run mild camshafts.

Synthetic base oils naturally have very high Viscosity Index. i.e. they don't thin with rising temperature anywhere like as much as petroleum base stocks. Thus they require very low doses of VI improver to meet a 0W-30. What you call "rubber" is a shear stable engineered polymer. A 0W-30 contains less VI Improver than a 0W-40. In fact with selection of the best synthetic base oils you can meet 0W-30 without any VI Improver at all.

Much of the Anti Wear or wear protection comes from the additive system.

fireman1073

what the shame of this is that mercedes should be investigating and looking for a solution instead of denial and sweeping under the rug.

i have never seen an engine with that much sludge, EVER so there is an issue.

I would guess a combination of too long of an oil change and high stress on the oil

At any rate it should be mercedes not the consumer trying to find the issue so the rest of us with good engines can keep them that way

Me i am going with 6 to 7 thousand mile oil changes with a good diesel oil like amsoil 5w40 and remove the plastic engine covers from the top and bottom

Steve