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The extremely long interval is at fault. Its pushed to the very limit in order to reduce the annual maintenance costs they can quote on the window sticker and ad material.
15,000k miles is an absurd interval no matter the oil quality. 8-10k is maximum for engine longevity even with synthetic. 5-8k in vehicles with an active-regen DPF.
Everyone's driving style is different. Use an oil analysis service to determine what your maximum safe interval is.
Transmissions are different; they have no source of contamination as an engine does (oxygen, soot, fuel, water, etc).
As long as the ATF is not overheated, the vent is not directly exposed to water, the cooler doesn't leak in coolant, and the filter works to catch wear particles, synthetic could last that long.
ATF life is exponentially shortened by excessive temperature.
I know a local 300TD that my friend services for the owner, he changed it over to M1 ATF 12 years ago and it still looks fresh today.
I have 30k miles on my M1 ATF and it still looks, smells like new. I was going to change it but the OA test came back very good so I will retest at 45k miles.
My MB 5 speed transmission oil is noticeably discoloured after each 50,000 km service but it is old technology & I am using the transmission oil of the day, not the new stuff. I will continue the 50,000km. services
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Carsy
Thanks for that.
My MB 5 speed transmission oil is noticeably discoloured after each 50,000 km service but it is old technology & I am using the transmission oil of the day, not the new stuff. I will continue the 50,000km. services
JC ~ The 722.6 MUST be changed every 60K Kms for longevity & it will do a million Kms. Unfortunately the Torque converter drain plug was deleted in 1999 to save cost & reintroduced on 722.9 & dying days of the 722.6. If you purchase a new converter now for a 722.6 it will have a drain plug. WIS change & flush procedure is in the W203 & W209 Wiki's. I think I have previously given them to you but I put them in the Wiki a long while back.
The newer Blue non backward compatible Benz fluid ~ 236.15 & up is somewhat unproven at 120,000Km drain ~ It bench tests well. Shell & Benz spent a fortune developing that fluid but we are only just starting to see samples of fluid at that mileage. Some good & some not so good dependent on service & towing. If I had a 722.9 Plus transmission I would continue the 60,000 Km changes until we have a lot more data at double that!
It is easy to tell if a Benz transmission is getting too hot. The vehicle will change down and hold higher engine revs to increase fluid flow through the cooler until temperatures have normalised. Transmission pump runs at input shaft speed = crankshaft speed!
Transmission fluid contamination is generally internally generated wear debris plus possible coolant contamination if the radiator cooler springs a leak!
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 04-23-2016 at 11:20 PM.
Sorry if this has been covered before but I have a question re: quantity of ATF in the 722.9. I just had the dealer service my 722.9 transmission for the required 4 year service. The work ticket listed 6 qts of ATF were used.
That doesn't sound like a lot of ATF to me. What is the ATF capacity of the 722.9? Do you think they didn't drain the torque converter but only the pan?
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by OM617.95
The extremely long interval is at fault. Its pushed to the very limit in order to reduce the annual maintenance costs they can quote on the window sticker and ad material.
15,000k miles is an absurd interval no matter the oil quality. 8-10k is maximum for engine longevity even with synthetic. 5-8k in vehicles with an active-regen DPF.
Everyone's driving style is different. Use an oil analysis service to determine what your maximum safe interval is.
I agree regarding sample analysis but reality is that most won't do that so 10K miles is sensible drain apart from these troublesome engines where I would halve it until solved. 15K miles is more than feasible with Euro 6 fuels but with the rubbish the rest of us get I would not do it!
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Sorry if this has been covered before but I have a question re: quantity of ATF in the 722.9. I just had the dealer service my 722.9 transmission for the required 4 year service. The work ticket listed 6 qts of ATF were used.
That doesn't sound like a lot of ATF to me. What is the ATF capacity of the 722.9? Do you think they didn't drain the torque converter but only the pan?
They did not drain the converter. Many of them do not read the WIS.
JC ~ The 722.6 MUST be changed every 60K Kms for longevity & it will do a million Kms. Unfortunately the Torque converter drain plug was deleted in 1999 to save cost & reintroduced on 722.9 & dying days of the 722.6. If you purchase a new converter now for a 722.6 it will have a drain plug. WIS change & flush procedure is in the W203 & W209 Wiki's. I think I have previously given them to you but I put them in the Wiki a long while back.
The newer Blue non backward compatible Benz fluid ~ 236.15 & up is somewhat unproven at 120,000Km drain ~ It bench tests well. Shell & Benz spent a fortune developing that fluid but we are only just starting to see samples of fluid at that mileage. Some good & some not so good dependent on service & towing. If I had a 722.9 Plus transmission I would continue the 60,000 Km changes until we have a lot more data at double that!
It is easy to tell if a Benz transmission is getting too hot. The vehicle wil change down and hold higher engine revs to increase fluid flow through the cooler Until temperatures have normalised. Transmission pump runs at input shaft speed = crankshaft speed!
Transmission fluid contamination is generally internally generated wear debris plus possible coolant contamination if the radiator cooler springs a leak!
Hello Glyn,
I have never flushed but did drop it twice at the 100,000 km service & it looked OK (clear & pink). I will continue to drop it every 12 months when I do the engine oil .The internals of the filter were perfectly clean so will do that every 4 years. There was a fair bit on the magnet ( 1/16 ") & a light deposit on the bottom of the pan.
Thanks, that's what I thought. I assume your reference to WIS #S127.00.P.0002B is what the factory recommends they do when servicing the 722.9 transmission. Correct?
I don't know if I should challenge the dealer that they did not follow factory recommendations or not. I could have chosen an independent MB shop for a lot less but decided to go with the MB dealer thinking they were required to follow factory procedures to the letter. Having said that, I've been around long enough to know better.....
Does anyone know if I have a valid complaint with them or MB here? The vehicle is still under warranty.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by Carsy
Hello Glyn,
I have never flushed but did drop it twice at the 100,000 km service & it looked OK (clear & pink). I will continue to drop it every 12 months when I do the engine oil .The internals of the filter were perfectly clean so will do that every 4 years. There was a fair bit on the magnet ( 1/16 ") & a light deposit on the bottom of the pan.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Thanks, that's what I thought. I assume your reference to WIS #S127.00.P.0002B is what the factory recommends they do when servicing the 722.9 transmission. Correct?
I don't know if I should challenge the dealer that they did not follow factory recommendations or not. I could have chosen an independent MB shop for a lot less but decided to go with the MB dealer thinking they were required to follow factory procedures to the letter. Having said that, I've been around long enough to know better.....
Does anyone know if I have a valid complaint with them or MB here? The vehicle is still under warranty.
Correct ~ If you search the W204 or W209 forums you will find we have got a number of US dealers to change their bad practice! I would make them do another change. The TC holds 4 litres!
Glyn- Before I confront the dealer I's like to be sure of my facts. My car is a 2012 E350 BT. I know it has the 722.9 transmission. Is it a certainty that the transmission has a drain plug to allow a TC fluid change for that model year and model (W212)? Also, since I don't have access to the manual, does WIS S127.00.P.0002B pertain to my model and specifically call for a TC drain/refill at transmission service time?
This is the same dealer that overfilled my oil by 1 1/2 L when replacing my rear main seal. They seem to be careless on procedure. Just want to be on the right side of this argument.
Update to my prior post. I asked the dealer to check on whether or not my 722.9 transmission (E350 BT, 2012) has a TC drain plug. Guess what.... the answer was no.
I guess I should have expected that answer. It's possible they're correct depending on my specific VIN and transmission series. Without crawling under the car looking for the transmission stamping and inspecting for myself, I'm now in a position of paying an independent shop to inspect it for me.
Don't know if all this trouble is worth it. In three years the car will be gone when the warranty runs out. However, my patients may run out before that. I read some previous posts where the same scenario played out with the service dept. saying "no TC plug" but the parts department confirming "yes" by VIN code.
I guess that's why everybody likes dealers so much....
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Glyn- Before I confront the dealer I's like to be sure of my facts. My car is a 2012 E350 BT. I know it has the 722.9 transmission. Is it a certainty that the transmission has a drain plug to allow a TC fluid change for that model year and model (W212)? Also, since I don't have access to the manual, does WIS S127.00.P.0002B pertain to my model and specifically call for a TC drain/refill at transmission service time?
This is the same dealer that overfilled my oil by 1 1/2 L when replacing my rear main seal. They seem to be careless on procedure. Just want to be on the right side of this argument.
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Update to my prior post. I asked the dealer to check on whether or not my 722.9 transmission (E350 BT, 2012) has a TC drain plug. Guess what.... the answer was no.
I guess I should have expected that answer. It's possible they're correct depending on my specific VIN and transmission series. Without crawling under the car looking for the transmission stamping and inspecting for myself, I'm now in a position of paying an independent shop to inspect it for me.
Don't know if all this trouble is worth it. In three years the car will be gone when the warranty runs out. However, my patients may run out before that. I read some previous posts where the same scenario played out with the service dept. saying "no TC plug" but the parts department confirming "yes" by VIN code.
I guess that's why everybody likes dealers so much....
The WIS is endlessly updated with every connection to the internet so as I don't have a live Star at my disposal I can't answer your question regarding latest instruction. Your car should certainly have a TC drain plug.
US Dealers BS about this endlessly whereas here in SA where Benz owns my dealership they do a proper change including TC, no questions asked and under Mobilodrive Plan. You can't buy a Benz here without a motorplan.
Since early 2007 I have not seen a single 722.9 or 722.9 Plus without a TC drain. We only know of one car on the W204 forum without one & I seriously wonder how hard they looked. Many dealers have said no drain but when checked there was one.
The only answer is to pull the plastic plug out of the bell housing & crank over the motor to check.
Here are a couple of different bell housings on different models showing TC drain plug.
Leaving 4 litres of degraded fluid in the system to pollute the new fluid is very bad practice unless you are doing very short changes like Carsy does/intends.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 04-26-2016 at 09:44 PM.
Victory is sweet.... I went to an independent shop, had them verify that I indeed have a TC drain plug, they documented their findings, and I took a picture with my camera.
I then went back to the dealer with the "evidence". Like they say "A picture is worth 1000 words". The silence was deafening.... I discovered a new shade of red also.
late 2009 CLK 350 Coupe Elegance, '65 Jaguar S Type wires
Originally Posted by mbdiesel12
Victory is sweet.... I went to an independent shop, had them verify that I indeed have a TC drain plug, they documented their findings, and I took a picture with my camera.
I then went back to the dealer with the "evidence". Like they say "A picture is worth 1000 words". The silence was deafening.... I discovered a new shade of red also.
I'm delighted for you. Dealers lie to customers without batting an eyelid! They should be embarrassed
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 04-29-2016 at 06:48 PM.
Victory is sweet.... I went to an independent shop, had them verify that I indeed have a TC drain plug, they documented their findings, and I took a picture with my camera.
I then went back to the dealer with the "evidence". Like they say "A picture is worth 1000 words". The silence was deafening.... I discovered a new shade of red also.
I have to be careful about declaring victory I guess. How will I ever know if they really change the TC and Trans fluid the second time around? They could take the car in the back, keep it for an hour, and tell me all is well!
Now I'm beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist, aren't I?
Be there & leave when they have taken the plug out .I have done so on warranty issues.
Most of the MBZ shops won't allow customers into the garage floor. The shops also don't have viewing windows. How do you have them produce the evidence?
Shell ATF 134 was plentiful in California $60 case of 12 Qt. I have been having a tough time finding ATF 134 in Newark, NJ area. Lots of transmission shops trying to pass an full synthetic ATF as an approved replacement. All the ATF's were all for older higher viscosity ATF and not 134, 4134 nor mercedes .14 approved.
Any place in NJ Newark area that sells Shell ATF 134 at a reasonable price?
BTW: In So. Cal most of the dealer would not change the TC under normal transmission $350 ATF service. They wanted extra $ to do the TC.
In NJ one dealer wanted $190 plus tax and an extra fee to reset the service indicator on an motor oil change. Another dealer $550 for an ATF fluid change with TC drain here.
04-23-2016, 12:08 AM
