DubVBenz

I'm really hoping that MB didn't pull the software cheat. Anyone heard any rumors or news that might shed some light?

marc hanna

I haven't heard anything. It was never a mystery how MB met the emissions requirement as was the case with VW - but now we know why it was a mystery. For MB meeting the requirements came at the cost of efficiency and reliability, which seems to be the same problem everyone else had (except VW).

Wolfman

I don't think so because Mercedes' Bluetec is the Urea-based system that is the gold standard for clean diesel.

Daimler developed this system along with Bosch and VW was supposed to implement it as well, but then decided to go without it.
They probably figured it's cheaper to cheat instead of spending money for an expensive system that requires drivers to occasionally refill a second (urea) tank.

a64armt

I have been wondering if MB or BMW would be caught up in this mess as well. I am a big fan of European diesel vehicles and this angers me because it will not only be a black eye for European manufacturers, but also the diesel technology many of us have been praising for years. At this point it seems there is no denying the unethical behavior of the VW/Audi group, I had suspected they were being wrongfully targeted. Some time in the past I read articles on the U.S. Automotive industry's lobbyists pressuring the EPA for tighter diesel restrictions since diesels were taking a bite of the hybrid and eco-car market they were heavily invested in, I had hoped this was the case, but not so.

You can bet that all Diesel road vehicles built within the last 5 years or so will be subjected to increased scrutiny by both local municipalities performing emissions testing and the EPA now. I would bet that many manufacturers will start to retest their vehicles independently and owners may see software updates as new data starts to flow.

Oh, the new (and often replacement) ethics officers at VW/Audi group are going to be busy as well as the lawyers. VW will survive; they sell cars worldwide and in many markets this news will never reach. When the "chips" fall and their stock takes a hit, it will be a good time for perspective investors.

I sincerely hope that MB and the other brands are not caught up in this. I hope it is isolated to the program manager of VW/Audi's 4 cyl diesel engine program. Stories are already starting to surface that the German government was even aware, so it doesn't look good.

My wife and I really do love her GLK Bluetec, the performance and the economy are everything we wanted. Was it too good to be true? I am selfish, so I don't want to see any software updates that will detract from the vehicle we bought.

Just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.

OJ

Carsy

The Glass Half Full View..

The human brain/consumer has a short memory. All will be resolved ,compensated & sales back to normal in a relatively short time.

Just cannot think how they thought they could get away with it. High up pensions should be withdrawn, ***** kicked, fined & goaled.

Ausmbtech

I did wonder how VW managed to meet Euro 5 and 6 without much better emission controls than they were using (much greater use of EGR and adblue).

I'm very doubtful MB would be found to have similar issues as they us a large number of engine based (piston and chamber design, port shutoff, EGR with large coolers) as well as after treatment solutions(particulate filters with active regeneration, adblue).

If there are any MB engines that are implicated in this I reakon they would be the 651's that had the injectors changed from piezo to solenoid during the recall they had. But I'm highly doubtful any other engines would be found to be at fault.

sak335

I have a very good friend that designs fuel systems at Chrysler. He's been there long enough to have been present for the D-C days. He calls the Germans he worked with during that time "scrupulously law abiding" as they were civilly and criminally responsible in Germany.

He also mentioned that Navistar is in trouble for a similar issue as VW. They didn't cheat, but went headlong down a path of not using DEF that lead to having an engine that can't meet the EPA rules. Then they tried to convince the EPA that DEF didn't work, in an effort to convince the EPA from further tightening emissions. They did all kinds of stupid stuff, like never turning trucks off to show that as long as you didn't, they could run out of DEF and keep running. Thanks to them we have inducement, where if the vehicle detects an emissions failure it starts a countdown to no restart instead of turning on the MIL like a gasoline-engine car.

DubVBenz

Ahh, civilly and criminally responsible, what a concept. Think about how nice it would be to see some US CEOs in jail for the crap they've pulled on us over the years.

GLKpaul

If you did that the standard exit packet for top exec's would move from the "golden parachute" to the "lead bar sinker" not a one of them would pass go....

It's a sad state when profit is the only thing, and killing people is based on a profit sheet..

Plutoe

Very expensive mistake in corporate judgment---however what about all those forums where you have all those bonehead diesel and gasser drivers trying to purchase a tune that eliminates a portion of the emissions system and thereby trying to get better mileage---so big deal you have individual greed vs corporate greed I don't see the difference except VW got caught on a highly charged issue------emissions

Wada bout Russia China and India to name just a few of the biggest polluters

And finally I doubt MB would have pulled a bone head stunt like VW very different culture!!

Marcus Dahl

Every car manufacturer cheats on the emissions. There will soon be some more company's having trouble!!!

DubVBenz

Ok. Thank you for that solid input.

txjeep

No apparent reason to believe that they did. What VW did was really stupid.

Cwdawson

A good read...

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-emissions-row

Mercedes-Benz’s diesel cars produced an average of 0.406g/km of NOx on the road, at least 2.2 times more than the official Euro 5 level and five times higher than the Euro 6 level. A spokesman for Mercedes-Benz said: “Since real-world driving conditions do not generally reflect those in the laboratory, the consumption figures may differ from the standardised figures.”


Interesting....

marc hanna

The Guardian described it as a widespread scandal, which is real perversion of the truth. Yes, the VW thing was a scandal, but not the others. Real-world rarely reflects laboratory conditions - everyone knows this - and I expect that the limits on emissions were set bearing this in mind.

DubVBenz

The difference being that only one company actually designed their emissions systems with a cheating defeat device. All of the other manufacturers are showing slightly higher real-world NOx, but none actively developed a cheat to the test, and none even get close to the levels VW was putting off.

What does that tell you? Perhaps the test needs to be designed better to more accurately assess real world performance.

Ausmbtech

My fridge uses a fair bit more power than the manufacturer stated it would when I bought it, but I do have it on the coldest setting and leave the door open every now and then but that shouldn't matter.........that is the about the strength of the info given in the article by the Guardian, it's only getting traction because it's the topic of the week.

The manufacturers are required to test their vehicles under set conditions (NEDC tests). Designing a car to do well in these tests isn't illegal however designing a car to do well in the test but then do something completely different when not performing the test is illegal.

That really is the main issue, they designed the vehicle to pass the test but that's were it ended emissions wise. Imagine if they took this same view regarding crash testing.....

NOx is a unfortunate by-product of an efficient diesel engine. It a gas formed when a diesel engine is running under light loads, a diesel engine running at full load produces little of this gas. It is formed where there are high temperatures in the combustion chamber accompanied by excess air. The high temps combine both the nitrogen in the air with unused oxygen in the chamber.
The only ways to prevent it being formed are to either reduce the amount of excess air or to reduce the combustion temperatures. To reduce the amount of excess air you can either reduce boost under light loads, throttle the air intake (increases pumping losses which is were some of the diesel efficiency come from) or replace the excess air with exhaust gas (EGR/AGR). To reduce chamber temps they either reduce the compression ratio (MB have been progressively doing this on each new engine generation whilst increasing boost) or to reduce the peak chamber temps (done through more pre-injections using faster (pezio) injectors).

MB have done each of the above techniques and still require adblue for markets with strict NOx emmisions when using V6 and V8 engines. The issue for VW is each of the above techniques costs $$$ and reduces the basic efficiency and longevity of the engines. They basically wanted their vehicles to be cheap, efficient and reliable/long life/low service costs all at once. It just doesn't work that way.

Carsy

Thanks for that write up. JC>

MBWorld Editor

Looks like Daimler has launched an internal investigation into the matter...
https://mbworld.org/articles/mercede...ngine-defects/

silvertige

Ruh Roh... MB's got some 'splainin' to do.

Mike450

Let's hope it is no where the level of 'splain'n VW has to do.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/04/27/v...oint-evidence/

Turbocharged

Evidently the M-B internal investigation was triggered by a U.S. Department of Justice investigation into M-B diesel certification discrepancies.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercede...sel-emissions/

DanAdams

I used to do testing of critical safety automotive systems. It is a lot easier to pass some component/cost reducing revision during reliability/ validation testing and keep the program on schedule than throw up the red flag and start a ****storm of angry program managers. Just sayin'- Stupidity is contagious.

janky

Anyone have a pulse on what transpires next with MB internal investigation? Found out a few weeks ago that MB already prevented new orders of US models with diesel. I wanted the GLE 300d and couldn't order it. I've put in an order for a GLE 350 gas but I'd love this all to get resolved soon so I can change it to a 300d. I'm doubtful though this will be resolved anytime soon.

ohio2kentucky

Yes updates here please!