canonball

ok so is one better off just getting a 210 with an open rear and the gear they want? then add the lsd?

Saprissa

interesting. Thanks for the info.
I'm looking at a US-spec 300E (3.2L) that was built by AMG-North America in 1987.
It's an automatic with the 3.27 lsd.

Carlos

Saprissa@aol.com

AMGDave

Rik, I'm not so sure about that. The original Hammer had a G/T LSD with an automatic tranny. And the 124.031/.051/.091 AMG 300E/CE/TE models, with the 3.4L M104 engines, had ASD as a standard feature according to the "Intro to Service" manual; for both automatic & manual transmissions. ASD is limited-slip with additional hydraulic locking available at low speeds, sort of an "advanced" LSD setup. These cars had M104 engines with mechanical CIS-E injection so ASR was not an option.

I don't have any documentation on late AMG 124 models, but I suspect the newer AMG 124 cars (124.032, .052, .066, .092) with 3.6L engines had ASR standard instead of ASD. The 3.6 motors had HFM injection which supported ASR.

AMGDave

Yep, best to get the 210mm diff with the proper housing (i.e., ABS) and gearset you want, swap flanges & covers as needed to make it bolt up, and then add LSD as the final step.

2PHAST

I was going by late 80's AMG parts catalog, sort of a ala carte ordering system for AMG back in the day. I actually used to own a motoring accessories business back then, where I sold AMG parts and installed them as well. BHMA was the distributor for the west coast back then.

If you ordered a vehicle from AMG, they would only install the LSD on the manual trans cars, but of course, dealers could order anything and do pretty much anything they wanted.

These were mechanical LSD units, not unlike the 16 valve LSD and were close to 100% lock. They are rare, don't remember the price but they were really expensive back then, hardly anyone ordered these.

2PHAST

I am aware of the vehicle and the out of place LSD. But like I said, if you ordered a vehicle from AMG, the LSD on a auto was not a option as it was only available in 3.27:1, which is totally wrong gearing for a auto W124. Of course what many did was order the LSD seperate and have it installed later, you also had to use a different speedo. The mechanical AMG LSD is extremely rare.

Saprissa

I'm learning more and more everyday.

I wonder why the 3.27 LSD was installed on this AMG 3.2L 300E automatic ?

Carlos

Saprissa@aol.com

COMING SOON on Oct 1st... details on the
SoCal Mega Mercedes-Benz Meet
15 NOV

2PHAST

Well, aside from ASD/ASR, it was the only LSD option at the time, plus, the 3.27:1 gearing would increase your 0-60 time at the sacrifice of the top end. For most US consumers, this is a attraction, as we don't really have a autobahn here, so top speed is something we are not always concerned about.

I put a 3.27:1 190e LSD in my 2.6 190e (replacing the 2.85:1) and it really improved the 0-60 and 1/4 mile time. My CLK also has been upgraded from a 3.07:1 to a 3.27:1 (non LSD).

canonball

ok so you not not need to find one with asr. just one with the gear and options you already have?

AMGDave

Well, yes, if your car has ABS, then you need to get a 210mm diff with ABS (not ASR). It will be easier if you install the same gear ratio that your car originally came with, otherwise you will have to swap the speedometer head to match the new gears.

dernt

So what do you tell the parts guy you want once you have the right gear and diff? Will they be able to easily look up and LSD for the 210mm diff?

AMGDave

No, they won't have a clue.. you are making a hybrid (LSD-only) diff, that MB never offered from the factory in that size/ratio. For a 210mm with 2.65, 2.82, or 3.06 gears you would buy LSD carrier p/n 126-350-40-23. (This is shown in the spreadsheet I mentioned in my first post - check out the PDF version).

You'll also need new bearings, the diff won't come with bearings installed. It's possible that some slight grinding may be required for clearance in the housing (for the larger LSD carrier) but that's about it, otherwise it should be a bolt-in, assuming you have the tools & skill to set backlash, bearing preload, and adjust the axle flange shims.

TheGerman

Quite funny.
You told that you know what you are talking about, and the first picture is from an oil bottle with wrong oil.

I know it is the original oil from mercedes-benz.
But it is still wrong for LSDs.
They are not selling LSD oil any more.
You may buy your oil from Liqui Moly (Full synth hypoid gear oil 75W90LS) , Castrol (SAFXJ) or at BMW.

So the oil you ve bought by MB is the wrong one...
I can read the german text *g*
The spec. is 235.7 but you need 235.61 or another oil vor LSD Diffs.

The rest is looking like my one repairing of my own lsd diff in 2008...

kenshaaka

It would be nice to get a clear (step by step) wiki from AMGDave with needed parts. This is one thing i really want to do because my car breaks traction all the time.

AMGDave

Actually, your reply is what's humourous. Do you really think Mercedes no longer sells gear oil that is compatible with their clutch-type LSD's for both LSD, ASD, and 4Matic differentials? Ridiculous!! And not true - see below for proof:



I'm sure there are a number of aftermarket fluids which are appropriate but I don't have the time nor interest in experimenting with any of them, or even trying to find a vendor in the USA. Most of them are difficult to find in the USA since they are European companies. The SAF-XJ is not correct for the older LSD units being discussed here (pre-2000 models, 124/201 chassis) since SAF-XJ is a 75W-140 fluid, only spec'd for the AMG "performance packages" on the 204, 209, 211, 219, 230, and 463 chassis. (More details below.)



This is also not correct. Sheet 235.61 is for the AMG models listed above (click here and read it on the Mercedes web site for yourself). While this 75W-140 stuff may work ok, I personally prefer to stick with the original 85W-90 spec. The previous 235.6 spec for LSD/ASD appears to have been superceded by 235.7... please reference page 2 of this document, also on the Mercedes website, which clearly states that "Differential with limited slip" should use 85W-90 oil, spec sheet 235.7, which is exactly what was shown in my original photo.



As final proof... if you try to order the original, old-spec Mercedes LSD fluid (part # 000-583-09-04) from your dealer, they will tell you it has been superceded to the "universal" fluid, 001-989-17-03. Also, the Stu Ritter "124 Owner's bible" clearly states on page 42 that for limited-slip, MB fluid 001-989-17-03 should be used.

Of course, anyone can use any gear oil they like. But after spending ~$1k on a LSD build, I prefer to use the factory MB fluid, and not gamble with aftermarket fluids. I have 25,000 miles on my first LSD build with the OE "universal" fluid (001-989-17-03) and it is working fine, no ill effects. FYI, additional fluid specifications can be found on the Mercedes website at this URL.

battlecat714

lol...dude you're gonna get eaten alive in both threads, haha.

dernt

AMGDave,

Thanks for the info. I missed the links in your first post, but I went back. Very informative. The text document describing the procedure is daunting. How did you get yours set up properly without the factory jigs? Did you try multiple times to get the backlash and wear pattern correct? I have a friend that is a MB tech with 20 years experience, I wonder if they have the tools at the dealer to do this?

rusher

@theGerman: Die wollen es einfach nicht verstehen...

AMGDave

The trick is to get a diff housing with the correct gear ratio. The factory jigs are mostly critical for setting up the pinion depth. If you don't touch the pinion (i.e., don't change gear ratios)... it's not that hard otherwise, you just need to set backlash & bearing preload, which any good rear-end shop should be able to do.

Even better, if you are converting an ASD diff to LSD (which is what I did), no adjustment should be required, since you are using the factory-assembled housing, ring, pinion, and carrier. This is what I did for my 185mm LSD (I just had to take it all apart to refresh the clutch pack, and re-assemble with different flanges, none of which affects the backlash or preload.)

My 210mm setup will be more complicated since I am changing the carrier (but retaining the existing housing, ring, and pinion). I will have to measure backlash before taking it all apart, and make sure the backlash is the same when I re-assemble it with the new LSD carrier. I should have more details in a couple of months. I've talked to two different MB techs who have done this and they tell me it's doable with standard rear-end tools.

It's highly unlikely the dealer would have the necessary tools, but you can ask. Motorwerks in Houston or Austin is capable of this job, I had inquired previously about the cost to have them do it, I think it was <$500 if you supply all the parts... but that was a couple years ago, and I could have the price wrong!

dernt

AMGDave, A couple of final questions. Since the carrier I need is out of a S350 with ASD and 2.82 gears, does that mean if I just find a differential out of an S350 with ASD, then I will be set? If so, I'll buy a used one and save myself all this trouble.

Also in that text file from your link, the author refers to a shop in Florida with the proper tools for set up. Would you know what shop he is referring to?

roadwolf

AMG Dave are US model 190 16valves different to the rest of the world? because they were equipped with ASD + LSD fed by the suspension pump, Also why do you say that ABS can't be fitted with ASD diffs, 16 valves had ABS.

AMGDave

Maybe. If you want 2.82 gears, and your car has ABS (not ASR), and you have a 124, 129, or 140 chassis... that should work fine. You may need to swap the input flange (which requires a special tool to do correctly), along with the output flanges & cover, etc. Remember that a used unit will almost certainly need to have the clutch pack replaced, which will cost roughly $300-$400 in parts and quite a few hours of DIY labor. And you will need to fabricate a couple of tools to replace the clutches. It would help if I knew what exact car you have now, and it it has ASR or not.




No, I have no idea, unless there is a RENNtech shop in FL with the proper tools. If you are going to have a shop do the work, I'd talk to either Motorwerks in Houston, or GroupOneMotorwerks in Tuscon. Ask for Bart at GroupOne if you call them, I know he has built a 210mm LSD for a W124.

AMGDave

Yes - the USA only received the 201.034 (not the .035 or .036), and the USA version .034 came with plain LSD only, no ASD (it wasn't even an option). This can get confusing for people outside the USA since their 190E-16 models have a different configuration.

I don't think I said that ABS can't be fitted with ASD diffs, if so, could you tell me what post I said that in? :o You're right, that's not correct. An ABS diff housing cannot be used in an ASR car (and vice-versa), but ABS and ASD/LSD is fine.

TheGerman

@Dave: I'am just getting in trouble with the hundrets of specs.

Normaly you need a 85W90 LS oil für diffs with limited slipp.
If it is going older, and you even don't chance EVERYTHING, you better use a 75W140LS.

Mercedes-Benz does not sell LS oil any more, because they are not building any LSDs since a couple of years... They just superseded it of a universal gear oil.

For the durability, there is no difference in what kind of API GL5 you are using. You just need to be shure using a API GL5. But for the right function of the LS, you need a LS Oil and that is what you can't buy at Mercedes-Benz.

@Rusher: Könntest auch Oxenpisse verkaufen und die würden immer noch drauf schwören.

dernt

AMGDave,

I have a US version 1992 400e with ABS but no ASR, and no ASD as far as I know. The carrier you suggested originally came in a S350 with ASD based on your spreadsheet. I think I was confusing ASD with LSD. I thought I would be able to obtain a diff from a S350 with ASD, and then have both the gears I wanted and the LSD carrier.

My best guess at this time is that I need to find an open diff with the gear ratio that I want (2.82) from an S class (a 210mm diff). I then need to buy the carrier you suggested and install it. Am I on the right track now. Thanks again.