User 42722

The 4 speed automatic creates poor gas mileage and high rpm at highway speeds (70-80 mph 2800-3200rpm). Is there a 5 or 6 speed automatic that could be installed?

How would the shift gate need to be modified.

RBYCC

It's not an economy car...
Any major change will turn a potentially valuable car to one of no value...

whipplem104

You can put the 722.6 5 speed in without major modifications to the car. Do a search on this.

User 42722

Good advise from both respondents.

Jim's500E

A 500E at 70 mph gets around 20 mpgs (not bad IMO) ...how much more do you want/expect out of a V8?

RBYCC

I sometimes think that those that modify certain Merc models lack knowledge of the underlying value of the car.

What most don't understand is that the choice of transmission and rear end ratio is carefully thought out by factory engineers to best match the power output characteristics of the specific engine.

What may appear to be a savings with one or two overdrive ratios may cause more gas consumption due to potentially incorrect lower gear ratios

Ed A.

whipplem104

I am not suggesting that anyone chop up a 500e but there is absolutely no reason to do that with this swap. The only thing that does not bolt in is the tcu and harness. And if you are concerned about punching a hole in the tunnel for the harness you could easily mount the tcu next to the module box and run the wiring outside through the engine bay.
As far as gear ratios and the engineers go. Technology advances and at the time the engineers were compromising between performance and fuel economy and engine noise at cruise and quite a few other things. Additional gears and overdrive with lock up torque converters make significant mileage improvements in both city and highway. Put a small nag 722.6 with better 1st gear ratios and overdrive the car will get better mileage. I saw a rpm drop from 3,000 rpm at 60 with 3.27 final drive to around 2500 rpm. I put 3.06 gears in and the rpm at cruise is around 2200 rpm.
Now companies like GM have used overdrive ratios that put the cars in the 1700-1900 rpm range at 60-80 mph. And get much higher mileage on the highway.
It depends on what kind of driving you are doing on which way to go with gears also.
I am going to put 2.65 gears or something close in my w123 wagon that currently has from the factory 3.06 gears with the 722.6 transmission and an om648 to get the highway rpms down to around 1800-1900 rpm at 60-70.
If this stuff did not work those engineers would not have designed and installed these in newer cars.

RBYCC

Understand what you're saying as far as modernization/new technology, but for a very collectable vehicle like the 500E/E500 it makes it extremely undesirable for those that are willing to and can afford to pay for a period correct vehicle.
All that's left as buyers for such a modified vehicle are those that have shallow pockets !
Takes a pristine example from the $15K-$20K range and cuts the value in half !!!

Agree on your GM comment as I had a C6 Corvette that would get 26-28MPG on the highway...

But we are speaking of "new old timer" Mercs that have limitations...
Still best to match the power band of the engine.
If mileage is your goal, then you're considering the wrong vehicle to begin with...

Quicksilver500

Gas was <1$/gal 500E was $90K, MB and owners didn't care about MPG or emissions. The 500E gets crappy MPG but awesome power (Perfect) MB's solution - We want to still go 300 miles on a tank 20 GAL tank, done.

Also, 500E has CAN comm with the trans via the neutral safety switch so a swap of the .6 isn't as straight forward as the non-CAN cars. Until the issue of gear selector communication back to the EGAS module can be sorted the .6 swap won't work.

lowesguy

All I can say is, the price of gas is starting to restrict me! my v8 truck just sits.

whipplem104

I am not sure what you mean about the neutral safety switch but it is just the same as any other 722.3 transmission. You can rip it out and put some jumper wires in. But with the tcm for the 722.6 you can use the additional pwm or digital outputs for the reverse lights and neutral safety. The egas module may get a signal from the neutral safety but that would be it.
Besides I have run the PCS tcm in much newer more complicated cars than the 500e. In fact I have all the CAN messages broken down for the newer cars to load into the tcm for replacing the factory tcm equipped 722.6 cars.

Jim's500E

And a 722.6 mated to a V8 gets what kind of mpgs?

Go get a Pruis and leave the wonderfully simple 500E to age with some dignity.

Jebus, what's next ? ...a Cdi in a 55' Gullwing (so it gets better mpgs too)?

RBYCC

Jim

+1

I'm amazed at those on these forums that spend amazing amounts of time effort and money to make a car something that it never was and never will be...

Amazing at how some complain about the shortcomings of the 124 and then try to modernize everything from the fuel/ignition controls,transmission,rear, etc, when it's easier and less expensive to start with a newer chassis that has all the features they desire.

As you infer..better to start with "needs" then your "wants".
Know the limits of what you buy before you buy it and the impact on value to the mods you make..

A 500E/E500 should take advantage of whatever period mods were available but beyond that it's devaluing the car.

Ed A.

whipplem104

Again, I am not saying that anyone should do this or not. I agree with both of you that the 500e is a collector car. I just have a couple of points. one is it can be done without modifying the car permanently. So it could be put back to stock. Two is that it can be done without much hassle. Three it will increase the fuel economy of the car. There just simply is not doubt about any of this to me.
I never stated the mileage increase a 500e would get but as far as how much better the mileage would be who knows exactly but just on the highway I would expect all things being equal with a .83 overdrive and lock up tq converter to get 2-3 miles per gallon better. Just with the overdrive you are going to get around a 5-600 rpm drop at cruise speed. Now given load is about equal on a flat road to cruise you will have around the same injection pulse width per cyl. per firing event at reduced rpm it will use less fuel. I have seen this over and over. In real time data. Go get in a newer car with the current mileage being displayed. This is of course a calculation from rpm and pulse width at a give rpm. Change gears to a lower gear and it will use more fuel. Or if you do not have a newer car just put your 500e in 3rd on the freeway and see how much gas you use.

There is an entire industry around improving old cars out there with modern technology. Some people like older cars for the style but want them to drive more like modern cars.

Now Ed as far as what anyone should do with their cars vs starting with a newer one and not changing things and period correct that is just laughable. Some people, myself included like the project. Sure for money and time invested there are many better financial choices for the same power results. Who cares. Honestly I do not ever expect to see a dime out of my cars. Even the one I am putting a modern cdi engine in with a 722.6, a w123 wagon. I am doing it because it is what I want. Anyone including that thinks that they are going to get a return on any investment into a car is kidding themselves. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you get burned. But you can almost always buy what someone else did for pennies on the dollar.

P.S.
I would put a cdi engine in a gullwing. It would be faster, quieter, more reliable and get better gas mileage. Pretty car, but what a pos.

edcarls

It's much simpler to replace the differential with better ratio than to mess with the trans. But, there's always a trade off. You may have lower rpm at cruising speed and save gas. On the other hand, at take off (or on lower gears) you may need more gas to pull the car due lower (=heavier) diff gear ratio.

RBYCC

I do not disagree with any project you take on...
Why? Because you are capable of achieving an end result.

My concern is that the majority of those on these forums truly believe that what others who have ability do, they too can do.
End result is junk !!

An example of the reverse Midas touch is a young man that we both know on the forums who owns one of the two RHD C124 AMG widebody cars built by Statton's.
A very valuable piece of AMG history, I had it confirmed as authentic by sending a U.K. collector to view it.
Owner has installed six speed, Jap wheels, and other mods that make the car worth nothing to anyone that knows what it is...
Not to mention crashing it into his mate's car when he was testing how fast it would go

I've thrown a great deal of my life into car projects over fifty years+ , some gave me more then I put in, others didn't..

I disagree with you in the fact that you can't make a profit on collectable / special interest cars...just go to an auction and see the hammer prices on such vehicles.
It's not luck, it's watching trends and be willing to take risk and hold on for profit.

For return on investment buy low production,period correct, numbers matching whatever is important and get lucky on market timing..
My personal examples..
1964 Dodge Light weight max performance Hemi factory race car, 1 of 50 built. Purchased in 1968 for $2600 sold in 1972 for $3500 after campaigning in NHRA Div 1 All star Super Stock Circuit. Current value $200K +
1966 Aston Martin DB6 Vantage spec. Purchased in 1983 for $12500 sold in 1997 for $45000. Current value $200K+
1956 RR SCI standard steel car, purchased in 1981 for $8K, sold for $32K in 1997.
1966 Jaguar S-Type purchased in 1982 for $6500 sold in 1989 for $18K after ranking very high in JCNA concours points.

Presently have a 1971 280SL bought for $40K in 2007, now worth $60K+
It's in an article in a March issue of a U.K. Merc mag.
Holding on to a 2008 CLK63 Black Series purchased in 2010 for $80K, still only 7500 miles, has some provenance from previous owner and estimate a nice profit in a few years.
2005 G55K worth now what I paid for it in 2010.
Underwater on a C43 and E320 Cab..
But all of the above have one thing in common, a certain amount of rarity with low mileage.
You can only get a bit over 3% on the 30 year T-bill...

I just finished a C124 replica widebody build that is as correct as it can be..lot of research and patterning parts from the only known original kit..
If I back out the cost of what I paid for the car new in 1988, I can make a profit on it as I have standing offers from two Euro collectors for mid five figures...
It will be featured in a U.K. Merc mag and also in a USA mag this summer.
Period correct with a 1991 nameplated TurboTechnics TT install, still run the antiquated CIS-E.
Yet I'll make more power and go faster then 90% of similar setups with EFI while maintaining a high level of reliability.

I'm 65 years old so my "buy and hold" time is limited..
Any young man that owns a 500E/E500 and brings it back to stock will have a great return on investment in ten years.
Attrition by those that can't see value only increases value for those that understand the concept !!!

Ed A.

whipplem104

I agree with you on the above. I think you can be successful in all of this if you are paying attention and can play the market and hold on to cars long enough. I have thought a lot about buying some older Mercedes just for this reason. But it is still dumb luck at the end on what people actually think is worth money and what is not. I use to be a Oldsmobile enthusiast and while cars like your mopar and chevy were bringing big money at auctions a very rare w30 car were bringing very little. Even though they have gone up a lot in the last few years still undervalued for what they are. I watch the auctions all the time and am convinced I will never restore another car when I can go down to BJ and buy a complete car for a fraction of what it would cost me to build. I also like driving my cars so I have changed in that I would actually rather have a resto mod than the real thing at this point.
I would not chop up the real thing though to do it. No good reason when there are other cars out there to get to the same results. So I agree about the widebody car also. I have a buddy that chopped up a 500e to make a widebody wagon. It is beautiful and the 500e was a roach. Still bothers me though.

RBYCC

It seems that you understand what I've been saying for many years.

If you intend to do heavy mods on a more generic vehicle, then start with something that is not unique and has value or the potential for value if left alone or restored.

Your point about the resto mod is very important.
The whole concept of the resto mod is to modernize but maintain the appearance of the original vehicle.
It's valid and has worth providing you start once again with nothing that's unique.

I built a tribute or reproduction of a very rare AMG build.
One that was never built by AMG North America.
Could I afford to buy an original build..probably yes, but they are extremely rare and would have to be imported and are just reaching 25 years old for the import waiver.

Important to know that pre merger AMG's were basically built out of kits and custom fabrication.
With research you can replicate as no two real AMG's were ever identical.
Take the C124 widebody...the amount of the rear flare and the contour varies greatly on the period AMG builds as it is dependent on how the sheetmetal arch from the kit is located on the body.
I took three years butt welding evey panel..AMG took a few weeks overlapping and welding panel joints. If you go to the U.K. forum that I documented my build on you'll see the artistry of my body man.
Those that are collectors followed this build and see it no different then Heinric Niemyers ( 48HP name on forums ) build of a C126 widebody from a real AMG widebody found in the Arizona desert. Panels cut off the abused donor and brought to life on a better C126 chassis. His car has same value as the real deal, featured in a few mags including MBCA "Star"..

If you can't find it then build it, no different than the tribute muscle cars that the only way you know they are not real is by checking the VIN. And in the case of AMG builds no VIN just invoices that authenticate the build. It's the provenance that adds extreme value.
Same difference between a COPO or Yenko or Baldwin Camaro...

Consider the Cobra...the high end kits are not discernible from the real deal except without a CSX chassis number.
A good kit build can approach six figures but still a tenth of the real build if it can be found !!

As you stated "there are other cars out there to get to the same results."
And that is the key...even with a generic W124, no reason to start modding a pristine example when there are those out there that can stand a bit of help

Ed A

P.S.
Be it a car, house, stocks, etc,the profit is made when buying not selling....
Buy it right and you'll benefit..
I'll quote you: "But you can almost always buy what someone else did for pennies on the dollar."

Quicksilver500

Correct, the trans is the same. However, neutral safety switch on the V8 cars is a 6 pin connector vs a 4 pin on the m104 cars. The Engine management requires selector position from the safety switch, maybe something else. I found out recently that you can get all kinds of cool errors when your NSSW goes bad, ABS, ARS, EGAS, LH, ETA...the car won't run without that CAN output from the NSSW. I thought I had a bad harness and ETA because the ETA would hit limp home and loose all functionality randomly while driving until you cycled the key. It was the NSSW, a couple hours and shoehorn later the car functions flawlessly again. So to put a .6 in a V8 car you have to put a CAN logger on the NSSW and figure out what exactly it is outputting to the engine and or chassis management.

whipplem104

You are talking about the reference resistor for position. I will double check but this is just a resistance sweeper for position if memory serves me correctly. No CAN in the switch. I will look at the wiring diagram and get back on this to confirm.

pagodino

Ok, I have a 5-speed W124036, we made the transplant with a getrag 265 from a BMW and Sachs MH 240 Alpina E24 B7 friction. As I use the normal 265 not CR I have the 5-th og 0.87 perfekt on Autobahn or cruising. Top speed not differs because the tach trigger is on the kardan. The M119 is a spectecular engine, from lov to high revs it is top. With 2.82 rear end you are similar to the 5-speed automatik and 3.06 of the E50 in final ratio.
Tha CAN -problem could besolved so a 5-speed option (manual or automatik is possible). In nord europe they have a controller for the 722.6 so this coud be an intresting option with paddels. I am old fashioned an want the manual conversion. If anyone had driven a Porsche 928 GTS , so it is very smilar but with 4 doors. Next would be a Quaife LSD.

best Pagodino

P:s in the start/stop switch are several resistance, one for stop-start-2-3...the old CAn is functioning with resistances or some times with on/off (brake-switch-cruise controll). For start important is X61E...(engine runs!)