suicidal4life

I was getting ready to pack up my headers to send to Swain for ceramic coating yesterday and discovered a problem. Anyone notice something wrong?


By suicidal4life at 2007-09-28

Before I packed them up I tried test fitting them on my spare cylinder heads and noticed that one of the pipes was out of line. Its off by 3/16" which is alot worse then it looks in the pic!! FWIW the local distributor/installer that I ordered them from is handling the problem and is confident Kleemann will make it right. I'm glad I noticed this before I sent them out to Swain!!

I'll let everyone know what happens.

4ra4y

Good luck with them. How much did you get them for? and how much do they cost for installation?

suicidal4life

After shopping around and doing some negotiating with the different Kleemann distributors in my area I was able to get them down to 2,200(+install) from the 3,400(+install) I was quoted at the first shop. This is still tons of cash for something as simple as headers but I decided to do it anyway. I think install is around 6-8 hours labor on top of the price of the headers. I don't remember right now. Coating will run somewhere around $500 for the headers and downpipes. When I'm done with the headers they will cost more then I paid for my HPS Gen1 supercharger

suicidal4life

Heres some more pics just in case someone wanted to see Kleemann headers from some different angles then E43's old post

Link to E43's Kleemann pics

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ight=header%2A

My photos...sorry the quality sux

rbtronnie5

perhaps they didn't drink enough v8.

foreyes

Good thing you caught it! This is going to be one sweet e430 when you are done! An e55 eater! Outstanding project!

ohlord

more power to you on that project.I would have removed the oe and had them extrusion honed and jet hot coated inside and out.Glad you got them down the grand.....
How are you going to map all the changes?fuel pump,injectors,timing curve?Is that all part of a kit or you flying alone on this mod?
ohlord

NitrogenBalance

That car is gonna be great! and a beast too. I predict 400whp and whole crap load of torque with all that buttoned up. Aside from the body style we are trying to build the same thing here! You've got me beat with the headers...still being a pus*y about pulling the trigger on those. At that price they are still the best and only option in terms of HP and quality. I mean we have the same plans, I want my blower ported by stiegmeier, I'm also trying to port/polish the top end etc...

BTW, how far is you manifold along? I'm down to the final stages that will follow with a final polish for a mirror finish. I'm actually affraid that due to the magnesium it is going to lose it's luster quickly But it should perform non the less. I just finishing the intake ports for the 8 butterflys where the sharpe corners are being angled and smoothed to better flow.

Man, we need to pick brains sometime. My heads like a messy desk with what and when I want to do things with this system. Lastly, I've got some current info that is a must for this system. I will shoot you a PM about it.

E55 PWR

ya its not the best design. Independent exhaust flanged headers always have fitmet issues of some kind. Its better to have single flange exhaust headers b/c then they will line up every time. In the process of welding sometimes things can shift and etc.

suicidal4life

400 WHP has been my goal from the start. That's close to 500 at the flywheel and almost double the stock HP. I think with all the mods I should be able to reach that # The HPS seems to make a 4.3 almost as strong as the 5.5 with the same supercharger. Mario is at 400 WHP so it seems a realistic goal to me.

Haven't done much. Took it apart. Dykem'd and scribed the ports to match to the heads and thats about it. Really haven't put much time into porting it yet. Maybe about an hour wtih a grinder. BTW Vrus's phenolic spacers fit our engines too. I think PTE was selling the same thing but I'm not sure he still does.


PM me any new info you have. I'll give you an email you can reach me at as well. I'd like to know as much as I can before I get it on the car.

Have you seen our stock exhaust manis up close? They absolutely suck!! The Kleemann headers may not be the best design in the world but they are night and day from stock. Extrude honing would do virtually nothing to the stock manis. Also the stock manis terminate into collectors smaller then 2". The collector for all 4 cylinders is almost as small as each cylinders exhaust port. The Kleemann's are about 2.5" collectors. MAJOR upgrade!! I'm having the Kleemann's Swain coated which is supposed to be superior to Jet Hot. Last but not least. Flying alone on the tuning.

I'm not sure why Kleemann used individual flanges. Most headers are a single flange. The only thing I can think of is perhaps its the different expansion rates of the aluminum heads and stainless headers. If they were not allowed to expand and contract freely maybe it would cause cracking problems?

suicidal4life

Sure hope so!!! I was originally looking for a white facelifted E55. I searched over a year but couldn't find one with low miles so I went with an E430. I actually like the Wald bodykit better then the AMG kit and the burlwood better then the AMG wood so its not as bad of a tradeoff to me as it could have been. Also it appears that HPS supercharged 4.3's make almost as much HP as HPS supercharged 5.5's.

Whitey

Sadly, I heard Kleemann products are mostly made in third world countries and with very little QC from HQ. Saw a set of Kleemann exhausts for the R171 SLK once and must say I was disappointed - the welding looked like that found on cheap tin cans and the overall finish was crap. Actually the entire muffler reminded me of a can of baked beans! One would expect more from a "major" tuning house.

Anyway, hope they fix it and you'll get what is expected from them. Do watch out for leaks due to poor fitment (i.e. doesn't sit flat on the manifold) - seen that happen on many cars.

Nice clean car btw, good luck on your project

suicidal4life

Wouldn't surprise me. Had I not seen other peoples pics of Kleemann headers and known what to expect I would have been disappointed with the design. The welds look OK however. At the original price point for these headers (I think it was close to 4K) you would expect them to be a bit better. My guess is most Kleemann header buyers never see them until after install when its hard to get a good look at the design and workmanship. Also even if Kleemann is having them made by an outside vendor they should at least run their own in house quality control before shipping. At the prices they charge that would be a no brainer......Despite my complaints given the limited choices on headers for this car I think that overall Kleemann is still the best choice.


Thank you!!

Whitey

Some more food for thought - SLK bodykit ordered from Kleemann HQ by the local dealer and then shipped directly to the installer - sides, rear and those dreadful exhausts checked out (except for the quality issue).......... the front was like 2 sizes too big! The frontend turned out to be an SL one Naturally, the disappointed customer returned the order after waiting for the longest time and got Carlsson RS kit instead...sad.

For the price you're paying, couldn't you just get a customed header? Seen some very good ones made and yes, design was a lot more efficient than the Kleemann and others available off the rack.

suicidal4life

Honestly the reason I went with Kleemann was I just wanted an easy solution with the least amount of headaches Also my cats are rattling and although I am still well under the 80K and 8 years I figured I should just bite the bullet and get some headers now instead of later. Everything I had read about Kleemann said they are top notch. I'm a pretty capable fabricator and originally was going to fab up my own headers but I have been so busy traveling and working the last year I haven't had the time to do much of anything with this car. I also considered having a shop fab up a set for me but the price would still be close to the Kleemann's and It seemed like more headaches then just buying the Kleemann's. If I wasn't able to get the Kleemann's at this price I wouldn't have bought them.

E55Cent

I wish you luck and look forward to the end results. I'm sure you can get 400whp no problem. I know Nitrogen got 340whp or so without the headers, Aquamist or P&P of the supercharger. HPS should of never made that Gen II supercharger mess. The Gen I works fine, its not the best but for $4k you can't go wrong. Also when you are ready you should mill the pulley down from 2.65" to 2.25" and you will get another 2psi. The M90 is perfect for the 4.3L motor but is really too small for the 5.5L. At 2.0" pulley I'm running between 5.5 to 6psi of boost.

I can't wait to see some dyno numbers.
Mario

suicidal4life

Ya that was my thought. For the price it would be tough to beat. I'm still barely under 4K invested in it including the P&P and Adjustible FMU (got for a score on Ebay). Of course dyno tuning costs will push me up over that #

Your pulley is really 2"? I know you had it machined down but I didn't realize it was that small. Of course Nitro did say it was the size of a friggen quarter. I was planning on milling my pulley down in the future. I wanted to do my mods in baby steps to keep the tuning easier. First I'll get the stock system dialed in. Then add the meth and get that system figured out and running without problems then start thinking about increasing the boost. After that will come P&P'ing the heads.

BTW whos meth injection system are you running? The more I research the more I want to mix and match the best parts from the different companies. So far I think coolingmist comes closest to what I want.

Last but not least. We all know the Eaton M90 is too small for the 5.5 and better suited for the 4.3 but what about the 5.0? I've seen several 500 engines for decent deals. I always figured if I accidentally grenade my 4.3 I would upgrade to a 500.

E55Cent

I have the cooling mist system with the progression module. Since there is no intercooler I spray before and after the blower with very small nozzles .5mm.
The 500 motor would be nice but you may run into ECU problems and having some one able to remap it. I doubt your motor will blow before your tranny. The tranny seems to be the weak link, so in case it does blow you should step up the 55 transmission. You motor should be fine just make sure you get your air/fuels into the low 12's and if you can find a Dimsport dealer to remap your ECU tables that would make your car even more powerful and run safe.
Good luck
Mario

suicidal4life

[QUOTE=E55Cent;2435984
I doubt your motor will blow before your tranny. The tranny seems to be the weak link, so in case it does blow you should step up the 55 transmission.[/QUOTE]

Ya I have been keeping my eyes open for a good deal on an AMG trans. Also thanks for the coolingmist info!

suicidal4life

Update

My replacement Kleemann headers arrived yesterday. No ill feelings towards Kleemann except I think they should have shipped the replacements a lot quicker. Everything looks kosher with the new set. Both headers easily slip over the studs on my spare heads. With the first set one side wouldn't even come close to fitting and the other side only fit if you forced it on. I'll be shipping them to Swain tech for thermal coating after the weekend.

I can't wait to get these on the car!!

suicidal4life

Headers finally arrived back from Swain. I sent them out in time for the early Nov batch but for some reason I got bumped to last weeks batch. So far these headers have been a real test of nerves. Hopefully it will be smooth sailing from here on out. I should have them installed in the next couple of weeks.

I will get some better pics in a day or two. The coating looks more silver in person and has a sandpaper like appearance. Also here is a link to a Nissan forum that has some pics that better represent the color of Swains coating. http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tita...ng-photos.html

ohlord

not jethot?smooth ceramic coating outside and inside to improve flow and heat retention.
did they coat the inside?
what you gonna do with all the new found power

suicidal4life

Everything I have researched about Swain says it is superior to Jethot. Jethot looks much nicer with a smooth shiny coating but Swain is supposed to be way better at heat retention. With the cats being so far downstream from the heads now it is important to keep as much heat in the pipes as possible to help prevent CEL's.

I doubt the extra 25HP or so (with my stock E430) will be all that noticeable but after the SC install the headers should make a dramatic improvement. Kleemann claims around 15% increase with headers on SC vehicles so that would mean the headers would add about 50HP at that point.

If you scroll down to post 15 on that Nissan forum I linked to you will see the following quote.........

I haven't yet coated any exhaust parts for the Titan, but coming from an STi & Evo (turbocharged sedans), I have some experience with different headers & exhaust parts and coatings. I've used Jet Hot, Performance Coatings, Crucial (they outsource), and Swain Tech. The Swain looked and felt much thicker and tougher (as they advertise)...I never put my hand to it when it was hot, but I did notice a huge drop in underhood temps. The non swain tech brands looked nicer, but more heat escaped the piping.

This is just one example of many similar stories and posts I read while researching Swain.

ohlord

looks like it will do what they claim,the other pics are much clearer and the surface looks great.is the flange milled and will you install locks?

suicidal4life

Not totally sure what you are asking here. Our cars use studs. I know there are locking header bolts with C clips for Chevy's etc but I haven't researched header locking nuts. I was going to purchase brand new MB nuts for the studs but that was all I was planning.

Are you suggesting I should have a machine shop mill the flange to make sure its perfectly parallel? The flanges are smooth and the welds are on the outside not up against the cylinder head like some Chevy hooker headers or something of that nature.

Here are a couple of better pics. They still suck. My photography skills are not up to par and I cannot get the color or texture to show up correctly. The pics on that Nissan forum are a much better example.

Passengers header



Drivers header



Poor attempt to show the texture



Couple of pics of the flange for Ohlord