jthomas1231

2008 E350 Sport, stock height, no air suspension, pulls HARD to the right. I called the local dealer and they want $199 to do the alignment. I bought the alignment bolts off Amazon already.

Calling around to some local alignment shops (Tire Kingdom, Pep Boys, Sears...) and some say they can do it while others say they need a special Mercedes program by Hunter to reset sensors. They also said they needed to shut off traction & stability control, but I can do this myself by putting the car in DYNO MODE. Is this TRUE?

Another shop said they could do it to MB spec, caster, camber toe-in/toe-out, but that they ddin't have the software to reset the sensors. Am I stuck shelling out the $200 for the MB dealer alignment?

And here is a link to the alignment bolts I bought - I know I only need 1 for each side and it is the lower bolt that has to be replaced.
I would appreciate hearing your experience with alignment as I'm about to go on a 3 month trip overseas and want this done BEFORE I leave this Saturday.

Thanks

otto6457

Why would you buy camber bolts before even putting your car on the machine? Has the car been damaged? If not, why do you think the camber is off? It could also be a caster issue, a toe issue, or a tire issue.

Have you even bothered to swap the front tires from left to right to see if the pulling goes away?

I am always amazed at the speed at which car owners will spend money before even diagnosing a problem. As if the act of purchasing something somehow gets them closer to a solution.

You can take your car to anyone that has an alignment machine and get a ball park alignment. If you're happy with that then have at it.

jthomas1231

I bought the bolts because they are cheap insurance against having to pay inflated dealer prices for the same part. I'm sure you know these E classes are RENOWNED for pulling to the right - just search on this forum and the many others on the internet.

I didn't want to get to the dealer and find out I needed the bolts and didn't have them and be stuck with having to buy from them. One forum member ended coughing up over $650 for his alignment, bolts, and labor and said he felt he was "gang-raped" (his words, not mine). I have 30 days to return the bolts from Amazon with FREE return shipping, so it is no big deal to me.

I don't throw parts at cars - I'm just frugal and that's why I've rebuilt my own Land Rover engine, Corvette automatic transmission and welded my own Porsche custom exhaust, among other projects. I understand that many have the view - "If you can afford a Mercedes, you can afford the service". I think if I can afford a luxury car, I'm smart enough to do what any high school graduate mechanic can do, or at least save some money when I don't have the expensive tools to do it. I change my own oil on this car (all 8 Liters) with Mobil-1 0W-40 and a Mann oil filter cartridge, changed the in-cabin and engine filters, replaced a faulty magnet in my cam sensor, upgraded my brake pads to ceramic Akebonos, and even disassembled and replaced the alternator due to a noisy bearing.

Also ALL tires were recently replaced and road-force balanced - Continental ExtremeContact DWS, which is what I also use on my '10 A4 without issues. And yes, that was stupid - but I had a blow-out ON A BRIDGE on the way to the airport before leaving the country for 6 months, so I just changed all 4 (they were due) and left later that day. Now I'm back and want to see if there are any viable alternatives - like $69.99 at a local, honest tire place or $89.99 at Sears before I leave again this weekend for another 3 months. The tires were also rotated before the blow-out and no difference in pulling.

I understand the frustration when you see someone throwing parts at a problem - but that isn't the case here.

And can you elaborate on why it wouldn't be perfect if they did it on any other alignment machine other than Mercedes'? If they absolutely need to have a Mercedes STAR machine to reset certain sensors, then say so, but answers like yours leave much to be desired.

vettdvr

Have to buy program to buy sensors...............

You just need a good alignmnet shop. MB normally preloads the toe in for high speed sustained driving. This causes inside tire wear when you drive US speeds. Just set the toe in properly and make sure you have enough right caster to track straight but stay within the cross caster limits.

Most shops want to set everything dead center of the range and say there it is right on target. Then it doesn't drive straight. That is why you have a RANGE to set within to make the car drive properly. What you need is a good shop not amatures telling you they need software when they just really dont' want to do the job.

jthomas1231

Thanks vettdvr, I have read your alignment posts on here, benzworld, and corvetteforum. I'll take it to my local alignment shop, turn on DYNO mode (just in case), and bring the specs with me. I don't have my service DVD on me right now - do you happen to have the alignment specs sitting around?

Can I just install the alignment bolts myself? It looks like I need to remove the tire, jack up the steering knuckle, and then remove 1 bolt on each side and replace with new adjustable one? It seems that the bolts are to adjust the camber via the lower control arm. Do I need to count the number of threads of the bolts exposed to retain the same geometry? I realize the camber may then be off while I drive to the alignment shop.

Here is a thread with a service DVD printout of the alignment kit:
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...help-help.html

Thanks again

otto6457

It's not necessarily the "machine" that makes a difference. It's the operator of the machine. I can count on two fingers the number of shops in my city of 200K that know to use a spreader bar on a Mercedes, and have a clue on how to actually compensate for pulling problems while still maintaining factory specification.

Also, claiming my response was less than desirable ignores your lack of understanding of the very subject you are asking about. If you were comfortable with your own knowledge of why your car was pulling ( ie: E's are "renouned" for pulling right) you wouldn't be on here taking me to task for failing to fill in your knowledge gap. If you had bothered to include the information that the tires had just been replaced etc., you likely would have gotten a more detailed response. Taking me to task for your failure to adequately describe what you have done seems a little silly to me.

Now, I could offer plenty of suggestions as to how to confirm your pulling problem seeing as how I do this for a living. But, it seems you are quite capable of figuring it out yourself since you can change your own oil and you rebuilt a Land Rover engine. Plus, you're frugal and I assume that includes the time you spend reading free information in the Mercedes forum.

I'll just bow out and let you have your own fun.

Good luck.

jthomas1231

As is frequent with written word on the internet, tone can be misinterpreted. I read your response as condescending, annoyed, and pretentious - so I responded in kind. And my mentions of my prior mechanical ventures was to demonstrate I'm not the average Mercedes owner throwing parts at an issue.

Is it so terrible to not want to pay TRIPLE the market price for an alignment if it isn't warranted? I'm sure most would agree that if they had the alternative to take it to a competent alignment shop, they would. I'll admit I'm not experienced with alignment, even after changing all my suspension bushings on my corvette, but I am grateful when people try to explain things, and if explained well enough, and given enough confidence, I will tackle it on my own. I know if I really wanted to, I could do my own alignment with a string and tape measure - but I don't want to go that far either.

If you have any further comments in regards to changing the camber bolts preemptively, it would be appreciated and I'm sure others who read this thread in the future would benefit from it. I don't think installing the camber kit would hurt anything as it should give the machine operator MORE freedom in adjusting camber. I could be wrong. But I could be right and save some labor costs and post a useful DIY guide afterwards.

apl175

Car got aligned at the local MB Dealership for $199 last week after I observed abnormal inner tire wear. Tried to do the $89 special at SEARS and they turned me back, saying they did not have the alignment weights (or some such thing) to do Mercedes-Benz vehicles. Interestingly there was a C-Class customer there that was told the same thing.

My alignment was almost dead on - the only thing is the rear cross-camber is 0.1 degrees too high - meaning that the individual rear cambers are within spec, but their difference is a bit too great.

otto6457

I try and be as helpful as I can but I don't respond well to people complaining about the free information I am willing to offer.

You can always find a cheaper place to get an alignment than the MB dealer. If you have a well trained and experienced independent MB shop in your area I would suspect they are cheaper than the MB dealership. I doubt they will be as cheap as your average franchise shop that happens to have an alignment machine. There is a huge difference between a properly trained technician using the right equipment and a guy that got a 1 hour lesson from the Hunter rep on how to set toe.

I am still perplexed as to why you think you need to install your camber adjustment bolts prior to putting the car on a machine. This is just bass-akwards thinking. Put the car on a machine and find out what the numbers are first. It's possible it's not even the front end alignment that's bad. The rear could just as easily be way out of spec. This is why I mentioned the throwing money at a problem before you even know what the problem is. You don't even know if its the front or the back. It could still be excessive tire conicity even though tires are pretty new. There are many more factors than just camber that will cause a car to pull.

The fact is that until you put the car on an alignment machine and get the numbers, it's all guesswork. Now how much you're willing to spend on that alignment machine is the only question that really matters at this point.

vettdvr

I didn't put in my camber bolts I let the shop do it. A Alignment bar to put preload on the toe out is used for the sustained High Speed setting of the toe in/out. But I found that setting toe in/out w/o the preload is more typical to US driving and I had mine done that way for about 100000 miles of driving and never had a tire wear issue.

I sold my car sorry dont' have the alighment specs but here is some data I have on the bolts. I would not install them UNTIL a good alignment shop determined they could not set the caster properly. Remember CASTER too negative on the side of the pull can cause the car to pull. You will hear all the stuff about roads being different, crown etc. But if you are on the interstate the car should drive straight no pull if there is no VISIBLE slope to the road surface. My car would drive at least one mile straight on flat road before drifting if the road was flat.

I do totally agree, it is the person doing the alignment NOT the machine or software. You can set up a mercedes using rulers, straight edges and inclinometers, so it is the person and knowledge not the machine.

Next time you speak to someone doing the alignment ask them about setting the toe in and caster. Then see if they talk about maintaining total cross caster. IF they aren't looking at total cross caster they are probably only setting to the center of the caster range which in most cases will give ok tire wear but will probably have pull and my guess is pull to the right.

njroadier350w

Dear @ jthomas1231...... How much is your time worth really? I think your overspent your $199 already.....

btv94

I took my car to dealer for new rear rim and alignment 2 yrs ago and i have been driving my car slightly pull to the right since. I was told by the dealer the reason my car slightly pull the right is because of Michelin Pilot sport A/S plus.
I just got all four tires replaced with Michelin super sport from costco and my car still pull to the right
I'm taking to local shop for the alignment. How can i avoid this problem happening again.

Thanks,

vettdvr

I would have told you the dealer was full of BUNK on the tire pulling. He apparently doesn't understand his business and I would not use them.

pinebaron

A car pulling in any direction would drive me nuts. Michelin Pilot sport A/S plus all around and zero problems. The car was aligned twice in the last month or so, once after installing lowering shocks/springs and second time after installing K-Mac bushings to improve camber/toe/caster, now all within spec.

gni2002

First, my apologies for such a long explanation:

I need you thoughts on how I should proceed. I need to act quickly and report my concern with the MB dealrship i dealt with initialy..READ ON..
4 months ago, I purchased a previously enjoyed MB W211 E350/sport pkg, staggered from a reputable MB dealership in Palm Beach Florida. It has 62K mi. and in very great shape. I live in Jacksonville, Fl so it was a trek back home, but gave me an opportunity to assess the car. One thing I noticed was the negative camber to the front wheels, which I was told is normal, but I couldn’t stand the inner tire wear. Within a week of ownership, I decided to have all 4 wheels aligned with my local MB dealership just so I can save the front tires. They aligned all 3 but couldn’t align the front left driver side(July 25, 2013) for $181 w/tax. MB tech states that something is bent, but could not determine what it was. MB suggested that I would need to have it placed on a frame rack to definitively diagnose what’s bent.
4 month later, yesterday 11/7/13, I went to another MB dealership here in Jacksonville, and voiced my concerns on this “Unknown bent” situation. Per the 2nd MB service technician, they found nothing bent in the area of concern. 2nd MB tech states that he can actually align the front left driver side and match it up with the front right. Interestingly, the reason why the 1st MB tech wasn’t able to align it was because he installed the camber bolt the wrong way, per the 2nd MB tech. Should I bring this issue up to the 1st MB dealership and have them perhaps grant a credit, compensation or refund?

Barry45RPM

I would provided you have an RO that proves what you are saying. I'd be happy with a credit for A or B services in that amount, but they might just want to refund the fee instead. Be civil & good natured & I'd bet they will do the right thing.

gni2002

Thanks Barry for that great insight. I haven't brought it up to the 1st MB dealership (Mercedes Benz of Orange Park) about my findings, but will reach out to them very soon regarding this concern. Thanks again for replying

vettdvr

I have none of these issues on my new Chrysler 300C with 5.7 hemi. It drives straight with even tire wear.

Barry45RPM

But it won't ride as well any 211 of any age/milage when its 2.5 years old. That's the problem when going from an MB to a new non-MB vehicle... I don't know how MB does it.

vettdvr

It may not ride as well but I won't be in the parking lot waiting for the tow truck due to failed airmatic or SBC

joelas

I would like to offer some suggestions on the entire alignment issue for MB, at least as pertains to my W202 C220. It only has the standard tie rod adjustment for toe-in and steering wheel position. First be sure the tires and rims are good and that there are no loose ball joints and bushings. You can’t measure or adjust successfully until that is all good. The technician should check all the joints and decline to adjust if there are any loose ones. There are 2 castor camber front bolts on each side which are subject to having eccentric kits installed for adjustment. Other cars may have more or less. Before getting bolt kits and deciding what to do, it is more logical to get the measurements while adjusting the toe in. The technician should give you a print out of the desired specs and your final results. And thus you find out what the problem source is before trying to resolve it. If some values are way off the suspect that something is bent or worn. Most modern wheel alignment machines with 4 wheel capability should be able to give you the numbers and maybe even the technician can explain them. It couldn’t hurt to disable the traction and stability controls during the test, but I don’t see what that would help as those are dynamic controls and you are doing a static test. I would appreciate a definitive explanation on that from someone who really knows. On that alignment check my right wheelbase was 2 cm less than the left, it was obviously bent which could be seen by placing fingers between the front wheels and the fenders. That was causing the pull to the right. I took it to the frame shop and he pulled the right front wheel a little ahead of the left, that is gave it more castor than the left, but he got too much and now it pulls to the left slightly. Realize that you are not going to get it to always go straight hands off with different amounts of crown on the road. So it is a matter of experience and judgment how much more castor which translates to how much more wheelbase on the right side on the roads you use. I think you want to get both sides with in the specs and the right side slightly more castor than the left to help with road crown. What he didn’t check was the wheelbase which is under spec on both sides, probably due to pot holes, and thus on both sides castor was low. So it will have to go back to the frame shop to get both wheel centers pulled to within spec with the right a judicious amount more ahead or more castor. Then retest it on the road and at the alignment shop. Only then with out of spec results or pulling will you need to get eccentric bolts.

If you don’t want to spend on visits to the alignment shop, and you have plenty of time to fiddle, find a level floor that you can work on or use some shims under the wheels set with an accurate door hanger’s 6 foot level. Set the front wheels straight ahead by eye. Set up a nylon carpenter string box around the center height of the wheels. Start from the front stabilizer bar and come out across the tire and back to the rear wheel, across it and under the trunk and around the other rear wheel, across the other front wheel and to the other side of the stabilizer bar and tie with a adjustable tautline hitch so that you can tighten up the string. Move the string to the center of the wheels. Now you have to adjust for difference of front and rear track which on the C220 is 29 mm total or 14.5mm each side. See your owner’s manual or online data. A piece of ½ inch CPVC plastic pipe or a 5/8 nut is 16 mm. Put that between the fattest part of the tire and the string at the rear of the rear tire to space the string out from the tire. You have 1.5 mm or 1/16th inch too much per side, so make up a stack of business cards or other 1.5 mm shim and put that between the string and the front side of the front tire. Adjust the steering to get equal space between the string and the rear of both front tires. If the rear of the front tire touches the string, you will need to increase the shims equally at all 4 wheels. Now you have parallel reference lines assuming that something is not bent badly. Now you can check toe in by measuring the space between the string and the front and rear of each tire at the narrowest part and determine the difference. Add the 2 sides which should give you the total toe in. That is the straight ahead position. Then you can easily see if your steering wheel is lined up horizontal. Note that if the car is pulling to one side on any particular crown, the wheel will be off horizontal to keep the car straight, but on the floor straight ahead wheels should put the steering wheel level. You can adjust the tie rods to level the wheel and correct the toe in. You may need to remove the splash pan for access. Since toe in is measured from the front and rear of the running surface of the tire and you have been measuring at the fat part of the tire, you will need to make an adjustment to the measured toe in. Divide the horizontal overall diameter of the tire by the distance between your measuring points and multiply that by the total toe in you previously measured which gives the actual toe in which is a bit more than the measured value. Working in mm is or decimal inches is easier.
Next go to the rear and repeat the toe in measurements with the same adjustment factor. This time each wheel toe in needs to be in spec as well as the total and they should be similar. If not, there is a place where an eccentric bolt can be used in the inboard bushing of the tie rod for a small adjustment. Save the old bolts just in case. The Febi bolts are better corrosion protected than the typical aftermarket bolts. The rear camber adjustment bolts are the same size as the toe in bolts. On line you generally find one or the other by name. Again 4 per car. The front bolts are different. If the rear bushings are generally loose, There are kits of 8 arms with bushings and ball joints to put it back like new.
Now you will want to check the wheel base as that is the major factor in causing castor errors and pulling. Refer to your owner’s manual to find the value. For the w202 it is 269 Cm. Make up 2 blocks of straight wood about ¾ -1inch square planed by machine that fit snugly between the edges of the rims and rest on the sealing edge. They will be about 1 inch longer than the nominal rim size. Measure and mark the exact center of that length all four sides of the block. When placed between the edges of the rim horizontally, the mark should coincide with the center of the MB star or axle center. Then with a helper, you can measure the wheel base with a carpenter’s tape measure. A jack stand can help with tape sag. Ideally it should be very close to 269 cm. A few MM error can be adjusted out with eccentric bolts but it is best to get the wheelbase correct so that you have all the eccentric bolt range reserved to adjust the camber and maybe you won’t need them at all.
Now if you move the wood blocks to a vertical position, you can use them to measure the camber. Put a 16 or 18 inch carpenter’s level (check the level by putting both sides of it to the same vertical surface to see if you get the same result, many are bad) on the block, make sure the block is firmly against the rim at both ends and you can readily see the camber. You can use a longer level provided the level does not touch the tires. Positive camber is wheels out at the top and negative is in at the top. Mine are negative. Move the level out at the top and measure the space in mm which corresponds to a bubble in center. Helper would be handy. Plastic ties would help hold the block if you are alone. A large rubber band might hold the level. Then divide the overall tire diameter by the block length or level length whichever is smaller and multiply that by the space to get the whole camber in mm. Divide that by 25.7 to get inches. To get degrees, divide the space in mm by the length of block or level in mm and divide again by .01732. For example: 1 mm space/400 mm block /.01732 =0.144 degree . This can be adjusted with an eccentric bolt at the inner end of the top control arm. 1 mm is easily measured and is about the probable accuracy which is substantially less than the acceptable tolerance. The numbers work.
Now you are ready for the more complex castor measurement. You need to have previously put something slippery between the front tires and the floor. Keep it all under the tire. I would suggest a thin piece of aluminum, masonite, or melamine, with a generous layer of KY Jelly next to the tire as lubricant. It is easy to clean up. Roll the car onto the shims; don’t jack up the car to place the shims as that will put a sideways loading on the wheels causing an error. Place a wood 2 x4 on the floor beside the tire and line it up with the rim looking down from directly above. The curve of the tire can cause a small error which you can adjust out by eye good enough. Draw out a long line beside this 2x4 on the floor. You need a previously made or bought 20 degree triangle. I would use a protractor to make a triangle. Turn the left wheel 20 degrees to the left measuring the angle between the old line and the new position of the 2x4. Then re measure camber degrees with the same system used on the rear wheels, Repeat for the right side. The right should be slightly greater than the left and both within spec. If it isn’t, and if it doesn’t drive straight enough to suit you, then you need the eccentric bolts. And hope their range is enough to take care of both castor and camber.
Since installing the eccentric bolts is often part of the set price for a wheel alignment, you may want to let the alignment guy do it. Our local Firestone alignment place gives a 30 day guarantee and they openly advise you to let them set it best they can, then take it to the frame straightener and get your eccentric bolts and come back for a free final adjustment. I would only install the eccentric bolts actually needed since they are not quite as strong as the originals, Keep the originals just in case you have to go back to the frame straightener when I would install the original bolts in the front. Remember that moving the bottom of the wheel forward with the eccentric bolts increases the castor. For castor the forward bolt operates opposite to the rear bolt. For camber they operate in the same direction.
Careful workmanship is required to successfully correct the alignment and not all shops have the necessary skills and equipment and parts. Even when done well it is not permanent. Routine wear and hitting unfortunate defects in the roads take their daily tool. You can keep a routine watch on the situation easily once you have collected the required tools; string, shims, tape measure, 20º angle, and level. I estimate it would take about an hour the second time to check the angles.
I have in mind another camber castor DIY measuring System. Get a 16x24 inch steel carpenter’s square. Cut the long side to fit the rim between the extreme edges at a point where the rim is perfect. Get a spirit level that measures up to +/- 7º and tape it to the horizontal leg of the square. They are sometimes used on boats to check if the boat is level fore and aft. Check it against your level to see if reads 0 when level. With the square held against the rim, you can read camber and castor directly alone. You can use it with a block of wood on other size rims.
In the course of studying the alignment issue, I came across the idea of the stronger and longer lasting polyurethane bushings. The do work and don’t cause damage, but they may reduce the sound and vibration deadening effect of the Mercedes rubber bushings and thus it becomes a quality of experience issue. For 4 wheel drive vehicles operating in rough conditions no one would notice, but it may be noticeable in a Mercedes.
Searching for parts, I found a site www.everythingbenz.com that searches for all of the suppliers of a given item and compares their prices. You may need to make some other searches to find out exactly what name of the piece is being commonly used. I googled by model of car and part name and selected one with compare. Always Genuine MB is the highest price. There is plenty of competition in the market place. But no one has everything. Also Pelican Parts under FAQ has an excellent discussion of the different makers of the parts and their quality levels plus an indicator of quality in each part listing. I ordered 26 items from 6 suppliers. Only Autoparts Ware house failed to ship 2 items that were shown on the website as in stock. No problems with Autozone, Autohausaz, Amazon, and Ebay with ordering. Ecklers is worth considering.
According to the Bean alignment machine program, these are the desired specs for models 190 to 210 and E class 93-95:
Front castor +5.5 to 6.5º, Front camber -1.2 to -0.5º, Toe in 0 to 2.4 mm, total toe in 0 to 4 mm. Ideally 1 mm each side with steering wheel level.
Rear Camber -1.9º to -0.9º, rear toe in 0 to 5.6 mm each side, total 6.4 mm to 8mm. Divide mm by 25.7 to get inches. Ideally 3.2 mm each side.
I hope this helps you and I will appreciate comments and try to answer questions.

vettdvr

Yea that what I have been trying to tell ya.. What Joelas said. Years ago my Corvette never went to alignment shop I did it at home with straight edges and one of those inclimoter thingies.

relinuca

FWIW, this thread seemed to be prompted by a resistance to spend $200 for a dealer alignment. Now, let's see...a well qualified Tech, an alignment system that probably costs $200K, and about one hour work time. I don't have a problem with the $200, especially in the case of a 4Matic where a four wheel alignment is best.

Just sayin'.

relinuca

joelas

Thanks for your comment. My intent was to provide a clear, accurate and simple DIY method for checking alignment essentially for free and enjoyment of the Project. Actually here in Costa Rica I pay only $25 including 30 day guarantee for alignment for 4 wheels on a Bean machine. I provide the eccentric bolts imported from the USA. If it turns out unusually difficult, it might cost up to $50. That would be totally fair if he had to change 8 frozen bolts. If the frame must be bent a little because the eccentric bolts don't have enough range, that is $120 at a different shop. I can check both the adjustments or even if it is off enough to bother adjusting. After replacing a ball joint, bushing or hitting a pothole, I can check it myself in less time than driving to town and waiting for them to do it. For some, $200 would be better spent for something else, maybe for you it doesn't matter just as long as you can get someone to do it right. Both types own Mercedes. I suppose this fórum reaches some who don't have access to a good 4 Wheel alignment machine. I mostly use the shop if adjustment or eccentric bolts are required as I don't like the small space provided by jackstands and the service jack.

gni2002

[QUOTE=relinuca;5852274]FWIW, this thread seemed to be prompted by a resistance to spend $200 for a dealer alignment. Now, let's see...a well qualified Tech, an alignment system that probably costs $200K, and about one hour work time. I don't have a problem with the $200, especially in the case of a 4Matic where a four wheel alignment is best.

With all do respect, the premise that MB techs are "well" qualified may not always be the case. In my case after 3 visits to correct the initial alignment service performed, MB tech and his service adviser has come to a conclusion that something is bent, unable to correct my front left tire and recommended that my car be assessed by a frame shop. I took the car to a MB collision facility and their findings was that the initial tech has installed the camber bolts incorrectly. 3x he checked and couldn't determine. All is good..just my 1cent thought..thanks