RJC

Sometimes when trying to impress, sports car owners and salespeople will go right to the highest performance settings, which for me is a turn off. When I tested the M3 first thing I did was ask the sales guy to put everything back in comfort after he eagerly pushed every sport button...

220S

The M3 does not come with RFTs. Far from it (they normally come with PS2s.)

If anybody buys one, be sure to get EDC (competition package option.) EDC is electronic damping control and it works really well (comfort, normal, sport.) Many people make a mistake and don't option for it in order to hopefully save money. EDC makes a huge difference.

Nonetheless, the M3 is very stiff for a reason. It makes no sense whatsoever to compare it to a heavy comfort sedan like the E Class.

The M3 handles superbly, although it's gained a lot of weight from what it once was back with the E36.

Germancar1

Come on K/A why would you cross-shop a M3 and an E-Class? Two totally different cars!


M

park423

The Comp Package is worth it for the wheels alone. My friend got one with the CP and wheels are so nice.

K-A

I don't discriminate!

I cross shopped everything from Used M3's, C63's, Range Rover, 6-Series, S-Class, CLS (55 & 550), SL, Quattroporte, and brand new E350. Even looked into 996 Turbo and 997 Carrera.

It's like I have a mental chart, and certain aspects are more important than others, yet the others are still taken into consideration. The E just scored the most points.

vettdvr

Well done.. Same approach I use. I investigate 2 yrs in advance of purchase, check features, performance, safety reliability and value. The 2003 E500 was 1st yr of model. Won't make 1st yr mistake again.

K-A

Nice. I'm someone who doesn't need the practicality of a Sedan, but chooses it, and I'm so picky that each other car had a "deal-breaker" aspect, while the E just gave me everything I needed and wanted, and the aspects it was low on (performance, exclusivity) weren't big playing factors in my desires or choices this time around.

Sucks about all your cars problems. Hopefully the 2010's will prove to be better! 2003 was just a disastrous time for M-B, sucks that they literally conned you into buying what should have been a well done/quality car.

park423

Same here, had a 2003 E320
Seems like first year W212 aren't having the same "first year" type issues

220S

One good thing the W212 had going for it was that it wasn't a totally revamped car. It still used lots of the W211 components (engine, transmission, suspension, etc..) The BMW F10 is a completely different animal from the previous E60 and it has shown a lot of early growing pains.

Maybe the 2012 W212 is more the truly "different' car with the new motors and the 7G-Tronic "Plus" (and eventually an eight speed tranny.)

sharpxia

Yes, I totally agree with you. I think '11 W212 is more reliable than the new '12. I usually wait for 2 years when every new technology gets more mature before buying it.

ImInPA

Huh? How can a model year that is not out yet be less reliable than anything? The engines are out in other models overseas. I would not think there would be any difference in reliability.

ImInPA

The front suspensions are totally different between the W211 and W212. The W212 is far more of a "revamp" (e.g. totally new from ground up model) when compared to a W211, than the 2012 w212 will be vs the 2011 w212. Sometimes I read this stuff and wonder where this fallacious information comes from.

220S

Sorry pal, but what I said was not "fallacious." The W212 does share same components. I said specifically: engine, transmission, suspension. And you replied the front suspensions are totally different. Yes the front end has changed, but other components are the same. Check the parts on the Mercedes STAR TekInfo.

Sorry, but the W212 was not a totally revamped car (my words.) Unlike the F10 (over the E60) the W212 shares components with its predecessor. You can't deny that. And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's a good thing (in the context of the earlier posts.) The F10 is entirely new (over the E60) and the first year issues have shown themselves. The 2012 W212 will be a lot different over the W211 then the 2010-2011 was over the W211. And that was the point.

K-A

This was very calculated by M-B. The W212 needed to be extremely reliable and it needed to make a statement of that. Thus the powertrain carry-overs, and the angular design (language that's opposite from the W211's), as if this car launched anywhere near as problematically as the W211 did, M-B might have dug themselves in a ditch they wouldn't be able to get out of.

Also, it is a very good thing indeed that the W212 is an evolved W211 in many ways, as the W211 is an evolved E-Class itself, and evolving on the E-Class winning formula is much better than building something all-new. When I drove the W212 for the first time, what I loved about it is how it felt like a more refined and tightened up W211.... Can't ask for a better formula personally.

The F10 is a much different animal than the E60 indeed, and there are lots of happy and unhappy owners about that (be it performance related, or due to the various problems they are continuously having).

It's also worth noting that due to the E-Class being a "bridge car" per-se, kind of being the tying link between the previous and next gen S-Class (i.e design language), E's rarely get all new drivetrains, and in the case of the W211, it had its updated V6 come out in '06 MY, while the V8 got updated in '07 with the facelift.

Also, for the record, it looks like M-B are quick to fix many DTB related issues. Lots of little DTB's were put out for the early '10 MY's, but by the time it got to my particular car (4/10) none of them applied. I personally don't think the "don't buy first year" thing really applies to M-B anymore (at least if I'm buying, that's how I see it). I would avoid buying the first 4-6 or so month build dates, however.

vettdvr

Hope you are right, as I thought that when I plunked the $65K + for my 2003 E500 only to find I was way wrong. Fortunately I bought a 7/100000 warranty. Best $1800 I ever spend considering the first $65K.

ImInPA

The wheelbase, hard points, front suspension, are totally different on the W212 Vs. W211. The move to a three link strut suspension, added width, added length makes the W212 every bit as much a total revamp as the F10. The F10 shares many components with the prior model, especially in the drive train. The W212 is just a much better execution. MB advertises that they did over 17 million miles of testing on the W212. Perhaps BMW should have done the same. I do not deny that all models share some components with their predecessors. I was referring primarily to the fact that the MB W212 is a totally new car, other than engines and transmission, which are carry overs, just as the BMW are also shared with other earlier models.

220S

I think maybe you've got the BMW F10 mixed up with something else. The F10 shares nothing with the previous E60 but instead with the GT and the 7 series.

But don't take my word for it, here are the direct quotes...

This is from FIZ, the F10 project development centre:

"This new F10 shares a common platform with the 5-GT as well as the F01/F02 7-Series. The Rolls-Royce Ghost does share some components with this platform but BMW considers that platform to be unique. The decision to base the new 5 on the 7 was not something that was decided later. It was something that was decided when the 7′s platform was being developed."

"The F10 model shares components and technology with the latest BMW 7 series to ensure highest standards of quality."

"The 535i has the 306 bhp (228 kW; 310 PS) 295 lb·ft (400 N·m) BMW N55 engine which made its debut in the F07 5 Series GT"

And the 550i has the N63 motor: "The N63B44 is a 4.4L, direct-injected, Bi-turbocharged V8 automobile engine from BMW. It was launched in 2008 as an engine powering the BMW X6 xDrive50i, and later the F01 BMW 750i."

"The F07 Gran Turismo (designed by Christopher Weil) shares the same F01 7 Series-derived platform, powertrain, mechanical package, and dashboard with the F10."

It's pretty well known that the F10 is a "smaller" 7 series. They even share the same assembly line.
From BMW:
"New BMW 5 Series Sedan built together with the BMW 7 Series and the BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo at BMW Plant Dingolfing. Use of shared components among several models guarantees efficient production and the same high standard of quality as in the luxury class."

And here's verbatim from the automotive press:

"The sixth generation of the 5-Series (BMW F10) made its debut on 23 November 2009 as a 2010 model. The platform is based on the F01 7 Series."

"The F10 shares its component set (similar to platform sharing) with the hatchback 5 Series GT, and with the 7 Series that was new for model year '09. The F10 5 Series is essentially a shorter version of the 7 Series.

Like the '09 7 Series, the '11 5 Series switches to the multi-link front suspension first used on the second-generation X5 crossover utility. It has an upper lateral A-arm, with double-pivot lower arms for three links per side."

All I can say is that the F10 is not derived from the E60 model at all but instead from the 7 series and GT..... On the other hand, the W212 is a direct evolution from the W211, as K-A also pointed out.

K-A

It's true that it's a totally different car (drivetrain aside), chassis, length, width, hard-points, construction, materials, steels, etc. etc. are all completely different. From what I understand however, is it's an evolution of the W211, which is an evolution of the E before it (which is an evolution of the E before it, etc. etc.). I guess what this means is that instead of starting with a clean slate, they start with a W211, and start building and developing the car from there (an ideal formula).

I'm not too versed on how different the F10 is than the E60, but I do know that it is very different in many ways, and this is where most of the problems and criticisms come from. If you come from a W211 (winning formula) and drive a W212, it will feel like "home", but evolved. If you come out of an E60 and get into an F10, a "WTF" look will come upon your face, and you'll either love it or hate it (depending on how much you like the E60).

What I do know is the E60's construction and performance factor was far more impressive for its time than the F10 is now, although the F10 is much more luxurious and refined.

About the W212's testing, that is very true. Another point that M-B really needed and wanted this car to have a certain quality control and message/theme, it was one of the longest and most exhausting testing cycles I've ever witnessed.

ImInPA

I don't believe I have anything mixed up. The engines in the all new F10 are not all new. The engines in the "new for 2010 in the US) W212 are also not new. Both vehcles underwent a "clean sheet" development.

RJC

Maybe this might help

http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/11/24/20...y-the-numbers/

ImInPA

The article you post is good, but, it is also two years old. All of the engines referenced are in other BMW models prior to the F10. The W212 is every bit an all new model when it came out as the F10 is for BMW.

K-A

I have no idea which is more "all new" (powertrains aside, as we know the story with those), but for the record, the point that I'm trying to make is that the W212 is a better evolution and blood-mate to the car that it replaced, while the F10 certainly feels like a totally different car. IMO, this makes the W212 a more successful replacement to the car before it than the F10 is.

RJC

I saw the dates when I read the article before posting it ...

I think part of what 220S may be trying to get across is the 2009 W212 E class got both the exact 6 and 8 cylinder power plants that the outgoing W211's had, where BMW's new 5/F10 gets a new V8 that its 5 series predecessor did not have (even though the new 7 had aquired the a new TT DFI 4.4 first) along with the F10 platform and body redesign.

Germancar1

I don't either, but the only way that system will work is if you take each car at its intended purpose. There is no logical point in cross shopping a M3 with a E350. They aren't going for anywhere near the same purpose. I too look at a broad range of cars, but going by your post here and on GCF there is no way a car like an M3 and the ilk C63, 911 etc. will ever have a chance. They aren't ride comfort type cars, though I do see what you're saying, but you can't knock an M3 for its ride compared to an E-Class when it isn't trying to be an E-Class. You're wasting your time testing an M3 and then complaining about how it rides compared to an E-Class.

M

K-A

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the M3 rides like "crap", it rides exactly like it should, any more comfort and it would be blasphemous! Just not for me, at least for a car I want to drive around regularly.