ECO STOP/START
10-06-2013, 05:59 PM
#26
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Straight from the horse's mouth: http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-9...0-0-0-0-0.html
The discussion was more in reference to whether a starter motor is utilized or not (it is), not what other smarts and sensors are needed for a system. But I'm glad you pointed out that the information was partial in that reference, it makes a whole lot of difference in the discussion....
The discussion was more in reference to whether a starter motor is utilized or not (it is), not what other smarts and sensors are needed for a system. But I'm glad you pointed out that the information was partial in that reference, it makes a whole lot of difference in the discussion....
You know, when they write something as a highly technical document I would expect it to stay with facts. The other thing that a hall sensor does not do is the engine rotation direction. It just reads small pins passing by. And the direction from this sensor is not known anyway as the engine designers made selection for it.
10-06-2013, 09:59 PM
#27
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2014 E350 Wagon
Here is an interesting article about the state of Start/Stop systems in the US:
OKOHAMA, Japan -- When the redesigned Honda Fit arrives in U.S. showrooms in the middle of next year, it won't have an engine stop-start system. One reason is that cars with stop-start can be a drag to drive.
The fuel-saving technology, which shuts off the engine at stoplights, is popular outside North America. In Japan it comes standard on all versions of Honda's new Fit small car.
But the lag between stop and start makes it slow off the line. And that is partly why engineers chose not to use it in the United States.
Nobuhiko Shishido, a lead powertrain engineer for the new Fit, said that in the United States, where speed and power rule, stop-start systems mean small cars will be left in the dust.
They "will lose at stoplights to V-6s," Shishido said at a recent Fit preview. He was referring to the extra split second it takes to re-engage the engine when a stop-start vehicle gets ready to roll again.
With stop-start, the technology automatically shifts the car into neutral to turn off the engine. Then when the driver lifts off the brake pedal, the starter motor re-engages the engine and the drivetrain is shifted back into drive. The whole process can take nearly a second, said Kentaro Yokoo, chief engineer of the hybrid drivetrain in the Fit.
That can be an eternity when priming to bolt from a stoplight.
Hybrid cars use stop-start because it improves fuel economy. But the hefty electric motors they use to help propel the car do double duty to restart the engine. They are so big and powerful that the startup is almost seamless.
Nonhybrids must rely on the run-of-the-mill starter motor, which is usually too weak for a seamless reboot, Yokoo said. Engineers can get around that by increasing the size of the starter motor, but that adds weight and cost.
There also is a marketing problem because the EPA's fuel economy testing cycle doesn't give extra credit to stop-start systems. So even though their real-world performance is better than their official mpg rating, they are a hard sell.
And stop-start has other idiosyncrasies. For example, the air conditioner compressor turns off during the stop phase. While the system continues to blow cool air, it's not quite as cool as full-blown air conditioning.
Electric power steering is disengaged, making it harder to reposition the wheels during a stop. And an engine restart sometimes shakes the steering wheel.
Most drivers get acclimated to stop-start quickly, Yokoo said. But in the United States there might be a steep learning curve.
The fuel-saving technology, which shuts off the engine at stoplights, is popular outside North America. In Japan it comes standard on all versions of Honda's new Fit small car.
But the lag between stop and start makes it slow off the line. And that is partly why engineers chose not to use it in the United States.
Nobuhiko Shishido, a lead powertrain engineer for the new Fit, said that in the United States, where speed and power rule, stop-start systems mean small cars will be left in the dust.
They "will lose at stoplights to V-6s," Shishido said at a recent Fit preview. He was referring to the extra split second it takes to re-engage the engine when a stop-start vehicle gets ready to roll again.
With stop-start, the technology automatically shifts the car into neutral to turn off the engine. Then when the driver lifts off the brake pedal, the starter motor re-engages the engine and the drivetrain is shifted back into drive. The whole process can take nearly a second, said Kentaro Yokoo, chief engineer of the hybrid drivetrain in the Fit.
That can be an eternity when priming to bolt from a stoplight.
Hybrid cars use stop-start because it improves fuel economy. But the hefty electric motors they use to help propel the car do double duty to restart the engine. They are so big and powerful that the startup is almost seamless.
Nonhybrids must rely on the run-of-the-mill starter motor, which is usually too weak for a seamless reboot, Yokoo said. Engineers can get around that by increasing the size of the starter motor, but that adds weight and cost.
There also is a marketing problem because the EPA's fuel economy testing cycle doesn't give extra credit to stop-start systems. So even though their real-world performance is better than their official mpg rating, they are a hard sell.
And stop-start has other idiosyncrasies. For example, the air conditioner compressor turns off during the stop phase. While the system continues to blow cool air, it's not quite as cool as full-blown air conditioning.
Electric power steering is disengaged, making it harder to reposition the wheels during a stop. And an engine restart sometimes shakes the steering wheel.
Most drivers get acclimated to stop-start quickly, Yokoo said. But in the United States there might be a steep learning curve.
10-07-2013, 12:36 AM
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Porsche 911 Turbo S 2014! E63S 14, Audi S8 13, CLS63 12, E550 12, C63 09, all tuned
Having Eco start/stop on an AMG is, well, kind of stupid.
That is why in Germany people debage their cars.
The peer presure is of such that having a fast car is Eco unfriendly.
Time to buy a sailboat!
That is why in Germany people debage their cars.
The peer presure is of such that having a fast car is Eco unfriendly.
Time to buy a sailboat!
10-07-2013, 03:29 AM
#29
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11-07-2013, 06:30 PM
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2017 GLS550, 2014 E550 4MATIC SEDAN
I just purchased a 2014 E550 4MATIC. Found this thread as I was curious whether leaving ECO on would cause premature wear on the starter motor.
I find the quoted excerpt of how the ECO works to be strange... says 8x time the number of start procedures but then says it can handle the frequent start/stop in urban conditions.
Well with this feature off, it starts just once per trip. With this feature on, every light is a stop and as someone else stated that could easily be 20-30 times per trip. Even worse in stop and go traffic.
I've been turning it off. But has anyone gotten a better explanation of how long the starter will last with this feature enabled from a MB master tech?
I find the quoted excerpt of how the ECO works to be strange... says 8x time the number of start procedures but then says it can handle the frequent start/stop in urban conditions.
Well with this feature off, it starts just once per trip. With this feature on, every light is a stop and as someone else stated that could easily be 20-30 times per trip. Even worse in stop and go traffic.
I've been turning it off. But has anyone gotten a better explanation of how long the starter will last with this feature enabled from a MB master tech?
11-08-2013, 07:40 PM
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E350-2014 Sport ,Honda 2001 Accord, FireBird-1992-Formula
No restart for me.
We bought a 2014 E350 a couple of weeks ago. The wife does most of the driving and HATES the start/stop/restart with that delay of the restart. Part of her procedure is to push START, push ECO, press brake then engine starts.
The starter may be made more rugged, but many other devices also surge upon restart. The more a device is used or restarted, the faster it wears out.
Joe
The starter may be made more rugged, but many other devices also surge upon restart. The more a device is used or restarted, the faster it wears out.
Joe
11-08-2013, 08:34 PM
#32
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I love the feature and felt very jealous to BMW guys who have it for a couple years. I didn't have the feature for my previous E class and needed to calculate how much time I will stop to decide if to turn engine off. Can you believe how many times I was honked not starting quick? So now I am good, I do not like only that a car doesn't shut off engine until it got warmed up, so if I do quick ride around town to drop kids at school I have awful economy.
Did I mention if previously I was nervous about stopping too long, now I enjoy the time, I can listen to high quality music without hearing noise from engine.
Did I mention if previously I was nervous about stopping too long, now I enjoy the time, I can listen to high quality music without hearing noise from engine.
11-08-2013, 08:38 PM
#33
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I just purchased a 2014 E550 4MATIC. Found this thread as I was curious whether leaving ECO on would cause premature wear on the starter motor.
I find the quoted excerpt of how the ECO works to be strange... says 8x time the number of start procedures but then says it can handle the frequent start/stop in urban conditions.
Well with this feature off, it starts just once per trip. With this feature on, every light is a stop and as someone else stated that could easily be 20-30 times per trip. Even worse in stop and go traffic.
I've been turning it off. But has anyone gotten a better explanation of how long the starter will last with this feature enabled from a MB master tech?
I find the quoted excerpt of how the ECO works to be strange... says 8x time the number of start procedures but then says it can handle the frequent start/stop in urban conditions.
Well with this feature off, it starts just once per trip. With this feature on, every light is a stop and as someone else stated that could easily be 20-30 times per trip. Even worse in stop and go traffic.
I've been turning it off. But has anyone gotten a better explanation of how long the starter will last with this feature enabled from a MB master tech?
11-08-2013, 08:49 PM
#34
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I love the feature and felt very jealous to BMW guys who have it for a couple years. I didn't have the feature for my previous E class and needed to calculate how much time I will stop to decide if to turn engine off. Can you believe how many times I was honked not starting quick? So now I am good, I do not like only that a car doesn't shut off engine until it got warmed up, so if I do quick ride around town to drop kids at school I have awful economy.
Did I mention if previously I was nervous about stopping too long, now I enjoy the time, I can listen to high quality music without hearing noise from engine.
Did I mention if previously I was nervous about stopping too long, now I enjoy the time, I can listen to high quality music without hearing noise from engine.
I your engine is so noisy on idle that it disturbs your radio listening experience you need to have your car's engine checked. Something is obviously very wrong with it.
11-08-2013, 09:01 PM
#35
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Thanks for advise, I will stop at a dealer and ask to check my engine. Idling isn't so silent and it is just two weeks old car. Good I didn't receive my survey yet, I will specifically mention engine noise problem there.
11-08-2013, 09:08 PM
#36
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I think it's implemented differently than a starter of regular cars. It uses more technology as Hybrid cars have when an electric motor assists to a gasoline one and can take its responsibility any time, so here are no extra wear by design. I know people can't believe but I trust Germans engineers.
I have the extended warranty. I'm assuming this is covered so maybe I don't need to worry about it.
11-08-2013, 09:17 PM
#37
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The feature is under your control, if you do not like it then turn it off. My friend who is driving BMW has the same fears so disabled it as well.
A little delay in staring engine doesn't bother me at all, especially if I have a car in front of me at stop, I will have no chance to start any faster. I agree with E63 drivers, they may think like the feature eliminate value of a muscle car. However I very rarely can see aggressive drivers of E63, unfortunately majority of them are elderly people not starting faster than Corolla.
A little delay in staring engine doesn't bother me at all, especially if I have a car in front of me at stop, I will have no chance to start any faster. I agree with E63 drivers, they may think like the feature eliminate value of a muscle car. However I very rarely can see aggressive drivers of E63, unfortunately majority of them are elderly people not starting faster than Corolla.
11-10-2013, 02:16 PM
#38
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
Exactly why I would NEVER purchase one
[QUOTE=GregTR;5799723]
crankshaft Hall sensor, electric transmission oil pump, starter motor and In addition, the on-board electrical system is supported by a second battery."
It cost $200+ to get an oil and filter change at an M-B dealership. How much do you think replacing the above will cost? Will they even have a technician who can do it? How many days will it take?
If it is so good and works so well and is so reliable, why doesn't M-B warranty it for 100,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes last?
Had the "motor" in my steering wheel replaced a couple of years ago. Took them two days after the part came in. It was warranty, so don't know what it cost.
How many updates and replacements has M-B done for electronics, computers, motors, etc. on cars since 2010?
Would never get a car with start/stop, cylinder deactivation, etc. Unless manufacturer warrants for 100K/10 years with provision of comparable loaner if repair needed. Even then I would be doubtful.
Probably doesn't matter to people who lease cars or get a new one every three years, but for those of us who keep one past initial warranty, this is a concern,
crankshaft Hall sensor, electric transmission oil pump, starter motor and In addition, the on-board electrical system is supported by a second battery."
It cost $200+ to get an oil and filter change at an M-B dealership. How much do you think replacing the above will cost? Will they even have a technician who can do it? How many days will it take?
If it is so good and works so well and is so reliable, why doesn't M-B warranty it for 100,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes last?
Had the "motor" in my steering wheel replaced a couple of years ago. Took them two days after the part came in. It was warranty, so don't know what it cost.
How many updates and replacements has M-B done for electronics, computers, motors, etc. on cars since 2010?
Would never get a car with start/stop, cylinder deactivation, etc. Unless manufacturer warrants for 100K/10 years with provision of comparable loaner if repair needed. Even then I would be doubtful.
Probably doesn't matter to people who lease cars or get a new one every three years, but for those of us who keep one past initial warranty, this is a concern,
11-10-2013, 02:49 PM
#39
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It is very good point. MB can count money as well. Why they introduce any feature and then pay for its repair endlessly? So certainly the ECO feature is designed to work for decades.
11-26-2013, 12:18 PM
#40
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2014 E350
Bought my 2014 E350 a month ago. The ECO function worked as advertised until about a week ago. Now, it rarely works. ECO annunciation remains yellow. Only occasionally turns green. Time to call the service department?
11-26-2013, 12:25 PM
#41
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2014 E350 4Matic, 2012 Kia Soul+
I've only had my eco for a week, but I enjoy trying to figure out when it will be yellow or green. When the engine is cold or the coming off the highway, it is always yellow. But other than that it seems to have a mind of its own.
I only disable it when I am in dense stop and go traffic. I like the feature and like the gas it might save.
I only disable it when I am in dense stop and go traffic. I like the feature and like the gas it might save.
11-26-2013, 12:26 PM
#42
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2014 E350 Wagon
The ECO start/stop function is operational
and the ECO symbol is displayed in green in
the multifunction display, if:
- indicator lamp in the ECO button is lit green.
- outside temperature is within the comfort range.
- engine is at normal operating temperature.
- set temperature for the vehicle interior has been reached.
- battery is sufficiently charged.
- system detects that the windshield is not fogged up when the air-conditioning system is switched on.
- hood is closed.
- driver's door is closed and the driver's seat belt is fastened.
If conditions for automatic engine switch-off have not been fulfilled, the ECO symbol will be shown in yellow.
and the ECO symbol is displayed in green in
the multifunction display, if:
- indicator lamp in the ECO button is lit green.
- outside temperature is within the comfort range.
- engine is at normal operating temperature.
- set temperature for the vehicle interior has been reached.
- battery is sufficiently charged.
- system detects that the windshield is not fogged up when the air-conditioning system is switched on.
- hood is closed.
- driver's door is closed and the driver's seat belt is fastened.
If conditions for automatic engine switch-off have not been fulfilled, the ECO symbol will be shown in yellow.
11-26-2013, 12:30 PM
#43
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2014 E350
Thanks. Seems all the conditions have been met. Don't understand why it isn't working like it was. The colder weather is the only recent change; but, I would think the ECO function would work normally, after the engine reached normal ops temp.
11-26-2013, 04:00 PM
#45
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It can also related to battery condition, if battery cold it produces less electricity and as result quick starting engine can be a problematic even for California
11-26-2013, 05:14 PM
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11-27-2013, 12:41 AM
#49
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2014 E350 Wagon
I'm sure it would be a trivial software change to have the economy mode retained between starts but I would not hold my breath for it. I'm sure MB put thought into why it's done this way even if it makes no sense for some. They could probably only claim the fuel savings if it was a pseudo permanent feature.
11-27-2013, 05:30 PM
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2011 E350, 2004 911
