Germancar1

Sorry, I just think you're reaching here. Again, the GL and ML can cost double that and they're made in the U.S. and no one is having any type of reaction about it. The S-Class isn't built here, but 100K GL and ML models are and they're bought year in and year out with no "reaction". The GL in particular is pricey at 80K for the GL550 and over 100K for the GL63. ML63 is also up there in price. No reaction there. A C-Class for 51K is small change. People might balk at the price because it is pricey and doesn't have certain features standard or optional at that price, that has nothing to do with where it is built. It could be built in Mexico for all most buyers know or care.

You think people car if the car is made in the U.S. if it cost 50K, but if they can get it for 45K then they don't care? That is ridiculous man lol.


I would suspect that the reason why the price didn't drop is because we're talking about an all new car here and more money was spent on the interior also, again the V6 is fairly new. There was also about 1B USD spent on upgrading the factory here to produce the C-Class. All of that has to be factored in. It is really blind to the facts to just think that because they're building it here, that is should be cheaper. There are likely other costs we have no clue about. The C itself took several leaps over the old car in many ways to warrant some of that price increase. The base price from the 2014 C250 to the 2014 C300 is about 4K I think, not a lot but not chump change either.

We're the only ones that really care about where it is built. Most buyers are clueless, we both know this.

M

K-A

$45K isn't much of a discount. What I'm curious to see is if the W205 being priced as it does, gets more than the 20% many W212's have gotten (and I'd assume W204's as well). I.e if M-B stay firm to their pricing model on the C, or have to dip $50K MSRP models into the $30's, which isn't much of a stretch considering many have gotten low $60K E350's for into the $40's.

How the market responds to the C's pricing will be a barometer for the E Class which I assume will get similar treatment. I hear that the W205's reception has been very lukewarm, not sure if that has to do with pricing (lack of incentives right now) or design, drive, etc. I can only speak for myself on the latter two and obviously some will like it and some won't, etc.

As for the built in America thing. That's a personal thing, yes. Though I never found M-B SUV's to be quite as refined as the cars. It's like I can tell they're more "Americanized", but maybe that's just because they're SUV's. I personally think it's unfortunate that M-B is building an important car like the C in the States, but again, I'm an enthusiast, and cars are emotive to me, so it needs to fulfill that aspect to my mind. The "Italian suit made in America" thing is how it feels to me. Lots of buyers won't care, though they won't know. I'm sure if you told people who spend over $60K on a Benz that their cars are made in Alabama, it would more often be met with some form of apprehension over anything positive. Like any import, a product coming in from a revered place of conception is worth a premium to some people as it adds an exotic appeal. But again, those are mostly enthusiasts who seek a more emotional connection. Most M-B shoppers walk into a dealer and want the cheapest lease on the biggest Benz badge.

Germancar1

I think the SUV buyers know where it it built since they have been built here for some years. It doesn't matter to people where it is built long as it's built right. My problem with it being built here is quality. To many small issues are cropping up. Brand new car in a brand new factory = problems and we're seeing that now on the C-Class boards. I personally don't care where they build the C, long as it is quality. Enthusiast that care about that so much don't buy enough cars to matter anymore, that is why things are changing. Enthusiasts cry about no manual transmissions, yet when car makers offer them, no one buys.

M

DerekACS

Well, you should be getting used to American-made 'German' cars ! BMW will soon be building the 3 Series in Spartenburg, NC. The X5, X6 and Z3/4 have been produced there since day 1.

But I do agree with you that there is a certain cache about German-built cars ! Somehow Mexico, for me, wouldn't quite make the cut as a substitute country for the manufacture of a luxury car like the E Class.

Even for larger volume models like the VW Golf, its premium hatchback, I wonder if VW has made a wise decision in building the Golf Mark VII in Mexico ? The fact that the last German built Golfs were quickly snapped up before the new Mexican production got underway suggests to me that there is a perception that 'German-built' is a definite bonus in the buyers' minds.

In addition to perception, there is the real issue of quality control, mentioned by Germancar1 above. I have yet to read of or hear anyone associated with MB claim that the QC for Alabama is as good or better than Germany. Perhaps in time, this will occur ? But the early days of the W205 suggest that much work remains to be done in QC @ the Alabama plant.

K-A

Indeed. Personally, if German cars are gonna be made in America, I'd rather just get an American car. Because then you're not paying the "import premium" for nothing now, and it's an American car (and they're not all junk like they used to be). I guess I'm a purist in that I like my cars to be built where they're from, it feeds the emotive connection I get as an enthusiast. I don't want my Chevy's built in Canada or Mexico or German for that matter, and I don't want my Benzes built in Alabama.

Thing is, American manufacturing is simply not like German manufacturing. Very different cultures, and it'll be almost impossible to replicate a true German sense if a car is built in America, imo. Also, with American made M-B's come more American sourced parts, which are cheaper than German parts. So now, more expensive M-B's get more German parts, and the cheaper ones get more American parts. Before, it wasn't that way.

It does seem to be affecting quality this rapidly, and I believe M-B just dropped from finally getting back toward the top of Consumer Reports, to something really low, like #26 or something.

If I can make a prediction on it: I think in the future, when more M-B's, BMW's, etc. are built in America, have even larger car fleets, more FWD variants, etc., I think that will coincide with those brands' movement toward being something akin to "German Toyota/Nissan's". By then, I think that being built in Germany will be a novelty and part of a new luxury premium, so when the upper market cars are built in Germany and sourced with more German parts, the manufacturers will use that in some form or another to justify the added expense of them.

Germancar1

No, no, no....more misinformation K/A. Mercedes dropped in CR due to the CLA and the S, neither of which are made in America. The C-Class is brand new has nothing to do with Consumer Reports data yet. That will be next year once 2015 MY owners are surveyed.

Just because the C is made here doesn't make it an American car. The car was still designed and engineered in Germany. Where a car is built doesn't determine what it is. What it will have an affect on is quality and that is where the teething pains are going to come from for model year 2015 with the C-Class. That said, the S-Class built in the most respected German plant had problems also. This thinking that if it is made in Germany it will be automatically better is just nonsense, and outdated believe. Again, the S-Class was full of bugs for 2014, all detailed by Consumer Reports, built in Germany.

M

DerekACS

I believe that the #26 you are quoting is in reference to the CLA. The E Class is rated very well for reliability by both Consumer Reports and True Delta.

Consumer Reports Owner's Satisfaction Survey reports that the W212 - E Class diesels are their highest rated car, based on the question: Would you buy that car again ?

88% of E Class diesel owners answered 'yes' to that question. By comparison, BMW 535i and 528i are near the very bottom of their ranking @ 70% and 68% respectively. Interesting that the BMW 5er V8 score higher @ 81%, tied with E550. Acura RLX ranked last @ 59% !

If you look @ www.truedelta.com , you will see that the reliability rating for the W212 - E Class and BMW 5 Series are well above average for their class. Of course both the E Class and 5 Series are premium priced luxury cars, a couple of steps above such cars as the CLA, so one would expect them to be of a higher quality build.

K-A

Of course, many M-B's and other cars built in Germany can be full of issues. I mean that the culture of quality is different, and there's a certain exactness to German assembly (at least in the auto industry, and architecture and infrastructure for that matter) that you don't always get from American assembly. Whether the American plant can match that, who knows. But I have no doubt that if you gave shoppers the choice of the same Benz with more American parts and American assembly, or German parts and German assembly for the same price, they'd take the German, which to me says it all. As noted above, before VW moved Golf production to Mexico, apparently there was an influx of buyers over the remaining German built cars.

To me, a car made by a German company in America, using primarily American parts content, is pretty "American", maybe "partially American car". I'm not gonna debate that it makes it an "American Car", but that's just how I *personally* see it if I'm gonna be spending a bunch of money for one at least. If it's a $20K M-B, then I probably won't care, but then, I wouldn't get a $20K M-B if there was one.

If it's a good product, then it's good, and worth the cost. However, if a 4 cylinder M-B priced at $50K can get even close to matched by an American competitor who's priced at $30K, also built in America, and not charging a huge premium for some "import brand tax" when the product isn't even technically imported, then I'm probably gonna choose the American car. If I'm gonna pay the premium tax on a premium car, then I want the full experience, fresh off the boat, etc. That's largely a personal thing, rooted in some tangible aspects as well.

DerekACS

Yes, how true ! But sometimes the public perception and expectations of "German-built'= best possible quality" can obscure the reality. Both early 2010 W212 and now 2014 S Class have had their issues. Now, it's the W205.

IMO, it's NEVER a good idea to purchase a new model (like W205) in its first year of production, no matter in which country it is built !

BeachBunny

THIS! My first car was a 240D which was slightly older than the girl I was dating at the time. I owned quite a few 1980s Mercs. Around `88, quality took a dump...and by 1994, I went with Infiniti, where I've been for the past 20 years. I'm still kicking myself for selling the 240D...and the 420SEL. Both cars were timeless and were quite reliable. The 190E 2.3-16v, not so much.

Now in 2015, I'm buying Benz again. Not because I'm thrilled with them, instead it's because Infiniti's designers have lost their way and their engineers are still stuck in the 1990s and trying to catch up, poorly, I might add. I will say Merc's technology is a good two generations ahead of everyone else out there. BUT, I do worry about reliability. When the MB SA's telling me it's normal to need new motor mounts around 80k, I do wonder. 213k on my Infiniti, original suspension, original motor mounts.

From a business perspective, I also think the old built-like-a-Swiss-watch could be to Merc's advantage. Let's be honest, the real money on a car is made on service/repairs, not the building of the original car. I'm sure Merc's made a fortune on W123 parts over the years. Build 'em well and the cars will remain in service for much longer, ultimately needing more repair parts before they reach the scrapyard compared to something like a Chevy Spark which is just one major repair away from the scrapyard even when brand new.

Germancar1

Well of course everyone would want their car made in Germany, but my point is that where it is built is no absolute garuantee of quality. The S having first year issues proves this. It's all a mind thing, nothing more. That is the point here. In the real world, it is the quality that matters not where it is built.

A 50K C-Class being compared to a 30K American car is invalid man, if we all did that we won't be buying German cars, no matter where they are built. German cars aren't bought for outright value. Otherwise we'd all be driving Korean cars lol.

Again, the fact that the GL and ML are built here and they have some very pricey versions, 100K or more and they sell with no problem proves that ultimately people don't care where it is built, long as the quality is there. It blows away this theory about where the car is built and how that causes a problem because it is 50K. A GL550 is 80K all day long and it sells like hotcakes.

Have you looked at the Golf sales recently? They're way up. People don't care about this stuff man. It's all in your mind. Quality can be had or lacking regardless of where the car is built. Golf sales were in the toilet before the new model arrived so there is nothing to support that claim either.

It's all a personal thing, a outdated belief that isn't supported by any facts. The S-Class built in the heart of Mercedes' best plant had issue just like the C is having this year.

M

Germancar1

Yep. The guy in charge of quality and the launch of the S-Class was dismissed soon thereafter also. Not a coincidence.

The real issue is whether or not the U.S. factory will be able to duplicate the same quality as the other plants worldwide once all the bugs are worked out.

M

K-A

Doesn't surprise me one bit actually. The W212 was known to "play it safe" all along to get the quality back on track, after the W211 which was very advanced was such a quality disaster that M-B lost a lot of momentum and knew that a botched W212 would mean they just sacrificed their decades-long bread and butter model. The W212's mission was to get M-B quality rankings back up from the get-go. Even when M-B introduced new engines in 2012, they still didn't go FI on the volume model like almost everyone else, etc.

What you note is actually a perfect representation of my argument that cheaper cars for a brand who's built a reputation (in the States, at least) like M-B, can be short sighted (marketing/boardroom decision to appease stockholders as it gives catalysts to raise stock price) and sacrifice a long term strategy. If cars like the E Class succeeded in bringing quality back up, then the CLA just gave M-B a headline of "massive quality decline". IMO a brand with enough premium models like M-B has too much to lose to let too many cheaper, harsh riding and interior'd, FWD, apparently quality ridden efforts drag the brand down.

The S quality issues surprise me, and I'm even more surprised at reading W222 forums stating how vastly different different months build dates feel from each other, even on some fit/finish fronts, and how many options/features/quality measures M-B left out from the first year models (does it even have the 9G yet?).

The 2000 generation of M-B's was all about technological advancement, yet they cut the quality, and it sank the brands perception and quality rankings.

The W221 launched a "return to form", more physical testing and engineering propensity, successfully, as they played it not safe, but carefully, with just enough advancements and a lot of tried and true methods, and they got their quality back up.

Then as corporations tend to do, they seemed let the greed get them so ahead of themselves that they launched expansions (into mostly lower segments), a brand new C built in a brand new American plant, etc. and even before the C, their CR ratings plummet to #26 (I believe that number technically represents the CR rating for the brand as a whole?). Maybe they'll reel it in quickly, but shareholders are very short sighted. After the W221/W204/W212 gens helped get quality back to a more respectable scale, they start getting chancy again, in ways that IMO are also harmful to the cachet of the brand even if they have the right quality.

BMW have had quality debacles ever since the F chassis cars launched, and it traded places with M-B. BMW was ranked better than M-B I believe, in the 2000's. Then after M-B went more "careful" and BMW let the "chancy" attitude take them over, they swapped. And as you see here, lots of M-B buyers were put off by that by BMW, just as it was vice versa before. Now, it seems BMW is honing in their current cars and getting quality back up(?)

I will say that my F10 has been the most reliable car I've had in a while. My M-B's were always back at the dealers for namely fit/finish or little odd noises type of issues, getting me acquainted with M-B loaners. My F10 while having several little technology glitches that my M-B's never did (slightly forgiven because it's considerably more technologically advanced than my M-B's were and because they always work themselves out quickly), it has never once had to go to the dealer for anything but topping off oil once and a service.

The issues my Bimmer had that my M-B's didn't are: Two doors popping into the secondary latch while on the highway, sometimes the driver door lock sticking in the locked position which makes a harsh metal-on-metal thwack when I shut the door, the auto stop/start a couple of times stalling in an intersection (not good) but my M-B's didn't have that tech, so hard to compare, and a run flat blowout which although got me 100 miles until it was shredded, was a nightmare to deal with after. Though, new M-B's have unfortunately adopted run flats as well.

K-A

Actually my 2011 E had more little bugs than my 2010, though my 2010 had an engine squeak that they said was "normal injector sound" for that year. I'd say that any quality manufacturer can put out a good first year product, BUT, you should always buy at least 6 months into the build cycle. These days, they get information much faster and any manufacturer worth their weight will make fixes on the production line immediately.

Yes, as I said, a lot of this is "to me", a personal thing. I personally wouldn't get a German car built in the U.S unless it's of exceptional value to the point where little emotion is involved. Otherwise I'd just choose a Korean car, honestly, or American car, honestly. If I'm paying a premium for a German that's priced as it is for some intangibles as well as its many tangibles, then I want it built in Germany with more German parts. That's why I think that German built/high German part M-B's and BMW's in the future will actually use that as a way to justify their higher prices. A mind trick as before, they were all built in Germany, while in this hypothetical prediction, now justified extra by what used to be the normal.

Again, if you buy a swiss watch, you want it built in Switzerland. Even if an American variation provides the same quality, you aren't gonna pay thousands for it. To me, it's the same with cars, BUT, yes you're right, of course the average car consumer buys them as appliances so cares much less.

But indeed, the emotive-driven buyer is few and far between, which is one reason why I find myself moving on from M-B and BMW. They build excellent cars, but for whatever reason, if I'm paying more for something that doesn't fundamentally deliver that much more than a value product, it's gotta be strongly emotional, and they seem to be moving away from that to some extents, because of course that's where they're shifting their buyer base. "Lease-then-toss", less a'la carte personalization (which thankfully M-B seems to be reversing and bringing back a bit), etc. are all contributing factors for me for this switch.

Enthusiasts are still alive and well, and I think that Porsche is the prime example of this. Porsche is extremely enthusiast centric, and they sacrifice a lot of short term gain for that. I attended a Porsche event where they let me race a bunch of their cars, as fast as I could get them, on full blown race tracks. BMW or Mercedes would never risk that. Porsche let's you option your cars to a personalized "T", and they let you pay massive for them so Porsche just feeds their margins. And it works! Porsche has the highest margins and profitability in the industry, the most rewarding long term outlook, and they do it BY BEING enthusiast centric, maintaining what every premium product should (variation, customizing, no-two-alike, etc.). Porsche's expansions always have a purpose, and keep the brand far from going down dilution road. Every product they put out is class leading in Porsche's forte (sportiness), no sacrifices, built more to a specification than a marketing or accounting price. The same can't be said for the CLA, 5 GT, GLA, X4, etc. And their designs always remain true to brand ideals, simple, timeless, etc.

I know that BMW and M-B are much different manufacturers and have to provide their own umbrellas, but I hope they take notes as to how the enthusiasts still very well determine what's aspirational, and the masses follow. It's like underground arts culture, they're small, but they lead the way, and everyone else eventually wants what they do as a showing of prestige, often for reasons that they usually don't even understand. Audi I think follows this approach best out of the 3 German volume manufacturers, honestly, as they sit in between Porsche's laser focus style, and M-B/BMW's "expansion/volume at no costs" mentality.

Germancar1

You do realize that BMW and Mercedes have their respective programs that allow people to drive M and AMG cars on race tracks right? AMG has their Academy and M has a program also so they do actually do that.

The future is global production, you have to see that. Production in Germany will be relegated to the most expensive models because of the inherent high cost of producing cars there.

Why do you think the every German make is looking elsewhere to build their cheaper vehicles? Audi will be in Mexico in 2016 building cars for the U.S. market.

We know enthusiasts are alive and well and all that about Porsche is largely irrelevant to what we were talking about here, but I'm glad you've discovered Porsche.

I too would rather they build everything in Germany, but that doesn't prove or guarantee quality or ensure it either. It's all a mind thing, nothing more. The S built in German proves it, as does the GL built right here.

M

wanderfalke

This is rich. The exact same discussion is occurring on the Porsche forum. That is to say the Macan is dragging down the Porsche name and diverting Porsche from their mission --to build the best DD sports car.

K-A

Funny thing about that is that the Macan is the most "Porsche" 4 door that Porsche has ever built. Anyone who's driven a Macan back to back with a Panameara (even GTS) on a track, as I did will realize which one actually feels like a 911 on stilts with 4 doors (not the Panamera). The Cayenne is obviously the least of them. To quote a lifelong Porsche owner: "My Macan feels as at home on a track as my 911 C4S". Lots of quotes like that going around.

The Macan is not a superfluous model, and the reviews are raving. It's revolutionized driving dynamics in the SUV department, literally every reviewer and tester has stated that it has redefined how sporty and dynamic an SUV/CUV can feel, and that it's sportier than any SUV ever made (sportier, not necessarily "faster"), be it M, AMG, etc. The Macan is perhaps the most pure-Porsche attempt at any segment they've explored since the Cayman (counting the Cayenne that came before the Cayman). That's my point, is that it not only carries over the Porsche tradition, but it does so better than any Porsche 4 door before it. The GLA/CLA are simply sacrifices that don't have any Benz-esque redeeming qualities. They aren't luxurious (actually quite harsh in the CLA's case), don't have interiors better than many cheaper cars, and aren't very sporty. The Macan carries the Porsche ideology of being built to a specification or not being built at all ("We will only make cars that redefine sportiness in their segments") while M-B's lower priced attempts are clearly marketing decisions, built to a cost. I don't like citing magazine comparisons, but the CLA came in last in a comparison of less eventful cars, for well documented reasons.

Also, the Macan has risen the entry cost to get into a Porsche 4 door, which many people aren't aware of. The Cayenne V6 was almost a grand cheaper than the lowest spec Macan last year, and was several thousand cheaper just years ago. And to get the Macan S to even a remotely decent equipped spec, it will be minimum mid $60's.

Yes, I understand that. All I'm saying is that it's turning me off as an enthusiast. Many on message boards I've seen agree with me, but we don't speak for the mass consumer, which is obviously where Daimler and BMW have to mostly cater to. However, IMO their approach is getting a little overzealous and near-sighted for the reasons listed. But who knows if my assumptions are correct (give it about 10 or 20 or so years). But I get what you're saying, and it's correct from a business/boardroom standpoint.

I grew up with Porsche's all my life actually, spent most of my childhood in a 930 Slant Nose Turbo. Yes, they finally released a car that literally fits me well, and I guess that's where I'll migrate to until one day perhaps they inevitably start releasing FWD 4 cylinder marketing-dept re-skins of each other that permeate the economy car pricing and attainability bracket, lol. Maybe by then, Porsche will be the new BMW and Ferrari will be the "new Porsche", so I can finally fulfill my other childhood goal (after getting a Porsche).

ddeliber

? The 2014 Cayenne started at $58,285, the Macan S starts at $49.999.49. How exactly does this equate to "a grand cheaper"?

Mid $60s? More like upper $70s. Does it even come with cushioned seats or headlights not powered by candles standard? I thought BMW and MB were bad with options, Porsche takes the cake for all of their cars. Oh, and I like how you try to make this sound like a good thing.

El Cid

[QUOTE=DerekACS;6241802]Well, you should be getting used to American-made 'German' cars ! BMW will soon be building the 3 Series in Spartenburg, NC. The X5, X6 and Z3/4 have been produced there since day 1.

The BMW plant is in Greer, SOUTH Carolina actually. Greer is between Spartanburg and Greenville, S.C.
Not sure what they are doing now, but I think it is only the X3,X5 and X6 SUV's right now. Haven't made the Z4 in quite a while.
The plant is undergoing a major enlargement. Ironically a lot of their employees are actually hired through contracting companies and do not work for BMW as such.

El Cid

I imagine MBUSA and DAG would both claim that QC is as good in Alabama as in Germany. There were start-up problems and will be with the "C" Class probably.
However, based on my car and the posts here and on other MB sites, QC in Germany isn't real good either.
And is the issue, QC vs. quality of assembly itself?

wanderfalke

Agreed. Might also be interesting to look up the lap times posted at The Ring for the panny turbo.

ddeliber

The W205 is a totally new car, being built now in a totally new plant with a significant number of new employees. There are going to be issues, it is pretty much unavoidable. Sure they will bring over people from Germany that have been building them for the past year, but that will only get them so far. The experience from building the w204 helps, but much of that can't be leveraged over here. Re-tooling for a new design is different than a new plant along with a new design. Hopefully many of the design issues were ironed out in Germany last year, but the manufacturing issues are real. IMO the overall reliability numbers will go down before they go up.

ddeliber

Whenever I think of the Panamera S performance I think of this Hyundai commercial:

Not that it is fair or anything, but for some reason it stuck.

wanderfalke

[QUOTE=ddeliber;6242379]Whenever I think of the Panamera S performance I think of this Hyundai commercial:

The Panamera turbo circled the ring in 7:27 and I do think it should be compared to a S class or 7 series. The back seat is amazing and the interior is as wonderful as the rear exterior is frumpy.

As far as the Macan goes Porsche folks want the steering wheel but hell no to a turbo charged 4. It has opened the door on that possibility. Sadly a 60 grand car is bottom fishing at a Porsche dealership. It is the home of a 400 dollar oil change. Air filter swaps are a four figure affair because the rear bumper has to be removed on the 911. The Macan will be a high volume profit asset aided by the fact is will share parts with the Q5.

All manufacturers are building lesser boxes and during the next economic downturn and there will be one, the supply of parts and repair services will sustain the network. Lets assume for argument sake that the marketing department at MB knows how to run a 100 year old company. That is my 2 cent worth and it is 2 cents more than any german car manufacturer is wiling to pay me for it, or anything regarding future strategies.

K-A

The 2014 Cayenne started at $49,600. A couple of years ago, it was $47k. Macan has raised the entry price, and the MSRP will continue to go up.

What do you mean "cushioned seats"? The standard seats are excellent and even have alcantara inserts. Better than any MB or BMW seats I've sat in (CR or some publication did a whole piece on how perfect they are). That's kind of a Porsche specialty.

Standard xenons, and the best driving dynamics of any SUV/CUV ever, by far. The Panamera is an amazing yet awkward looking luxo barge, but the Macan is the first 4 door that actually drives like a "Porsche".

Yes, Porsche options are crazy. But since like any true premium and enthusiast oriented manufacturer should; they let you option your car exactly how you want it. No two cars alike, personalization at a cost. So it's worth it (and their profitability shows that many agree and reward that strategy). Porsche shows that you don't have to follow strictly marketing and "bottom line" decisions and do the boring "fleet car" approach to be successful. MB and BMW to extents do as well, but imo increasingly less so.