Raven 8906

Hey Guys, first post here, but been reading the forums on and off since I joined up in 2011. First jumped on MB World when I was driving a '09 C63 that I purchased CPO from a local dealer with 15,000 miles. Loved the car, drove it everywhere had great service from the dealer (when I needed it) and just generally enjoyed the MB experience. So as it does..... Life goes on.... My wife and I welcomed my son into the world and we slowly noticed the reality of parenthood setting in. Sold my motorcycle (Yamaha R1), then shortly after that realized that my wife’s car ‘07 Cobalt SS was not ideal for all the accessory’s required by a growing infant. So…. We searched and test drove multiple cars we finally decided on a VW Jetta SportWagen TDI, now just to find the right car with the right options. Found a CPO used ’12 at a Cadillac dealer for the right price about 500 miles from home. Did most of the deal over the phone and agreed to drive up the next morning to make the purchase. Done deal there ended up getting what I wanted on the trade so bought the Jetta. Whilst waiting at the dealer to do the deal I asked if they had any well-equipped 4WD Tahoe’s, Yukon’s, or Escalades. I had been considering trading the C63 in for something with a little more room and a smoother ride but nothing had the caught my eye. Although I loved the performance and handling of the AMG it just wasn’t suitable for what I needed at the time. Test drove a couple of CPO Escalades and a 09 Escalade Hybrid stood out from the pack. I ended up trading in the C63 in for the Escalade. Now don’t get me wrong, the Escalade has served me very well over the years and I can’t put my finger on any one item but I believe just it just doesn’t have the same feel as my Merc or VW for that matter. I’m getting the bug again to get back into a Benz. I’ve had the Caddy now for a couple of years and picked up a Diesel Dodge Ram along the way to pull the boat around. So I don’t need the trailering capacity anymore in my daily driver. This has led me to the look at the E Class. Already having the Sportwagen I’m not looking at the E-wagon just the Sedan, but I like the idea of the 4-matic and larger engine, so that’s pretty high on my priority list. I haven’t had the opportunity to test drive any cars yet, (planning on this weekend) but I am much fonder of the 12-13 body style over the newer look. Found a couple of lower mile ’12 and ’13 E550’s that have my eye. What are everybody’s opinions of the 12-13 E550 4-matics? Have there been any know issues? Are there any special options that are a must have and I should be looking for? (I have a panoramic roof and push button start in my Jetta SportWagen and love it.)

Thanks for your input guys; hopefully I’ll be back from the “other side” soon!!

Chris

noka

Amazing how life changes one's priorities doesn't it? Those with E550's seems to love them. There's more power for sure. Added engine weight, without an AMG suspension, wheels/tires, etc., might make it push a little bit in turns. Probably won't handle like your smaller C63, nor have quite the power/acceleration capability. Otherwise, if you want the V8, I say go for it!

Homey63

I drive a 14 e550 and a 12 c63. The only thing remotely in common is the acceleration. the 550 is probably 80-85% of what the 63 delivers but with the 4matic, there is no tire slip from a standstill but also no drama either. Whereas it takes some effort to put the power down without the nanny kickin' in on the C63. The c63 is also a much harsher ride and my family complains about it every time I drive the C63. The E on the other hand is smooth as glass, rides very comfortably and handles well for the size of car but it can"t be mistaken for the C63 as it is much more "tossable" and encourages you to play silly bugger. I hardly drive the E550 hard but the power is there when you need it. The last thing that I would say about the e550 is that it is rather unassuming. It looks like an E350 so you will surprise most people at a light if that's your thing. As much as the C63 puts a huge grin on my face every time I start the engine, if I were forced to choose one car, I would probably take the e550 for practical reasons. Fortunately, we have both so I don't need to make that choice. While mine is a 14, I like the 12/13 model just the same. To put it in perspective, a friend of mine was starting a family and sold his c63 for a 13 S6. He hated it and traded it in for a Panamera GTS but he still talks fondly of his C63. No view on options just more electronics to break out of warranty. No problems to date, although I just got a recall notice but does not appear to be anything serious. Good luck with your decision.

Raven 8906

Thanks for your feedback guys... I knew i wouldn't be swayed away on here but you just can't beat honest feedback. Looking foward to being able to put the power down without all the drama of the AMG. Maybe I'll make it a few more miles between tire changes Iv'e pretty much made up my mind, Just looking for the right deal, I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again

Arrie

I drive a 2010 E550 that has the NA 5.5 liter engine. Although it is rated a bit less power than the new ones it goes really nicely when I need it to go.


One thing that I would think again, if I was you, is the 4Matic. MB 4Matic is not a true AWD system and I have doubts of its reliability. I don't have it and will not have it as I don't need it. The slip control keeps me from spinning the tires...


If I ever lived in an area where I really need an AWD car I would probably be driving an Audi. I don't know if MB makes any model with a true AWD system and if they do it probably is on model(s) outside my reach.

pamiboy

Why do you say that MB AWD is not true AWD. In what way is Audi Quattro better than this. As far as I know both are permanent AWD and not on demand systems. Would you care to elaborate please.

Arrie

A little history here.

Audi first started the AWD system in early '80. This development came from their participation in the World Rally Championship and when they first came out with the Quattro system they were just unstoppable. They were overwhelmingly faster than anybody else obviously as nobody else had anything to put power to more than two wheels.

As Audi Quattro dominated the rally world so much the new categories for rally driving had to be developed, i.e. separate for 4-wheel drive cars and 2-wheel drive cars.

The world did know about a 4-wheel drive systems that mostly some trucks and vehicles for off-road use had but all these systems were the old fashioned 4-wheel drives.

The old 4-wheel drive system is a system where normally a transfer case is used to move power to the front or rear axle to make also those wheels to drive but the thing here is that there is nothing between the axles to allow speed difference between the axles as the connection is made using a rigid coupling. For this reason these 4-wheel drive systems are not to be used on dry pavement. I have a 4-wheel drive Dodge RAM and in the manual it specifically WARNS using the 4-wheel drive on dry pavement as it can cause damage to the drive system.

For rally driving a system like this would not work so Audi developed the AWD system that allows using the power output to all wheels at all the time for superior control and without causing excessive damaging forces to the drive system components when driving on dry pavement (if this really matters for a rally car). This "simple" element allowing for this is the CENTER DIFFERENTIAL that distributes the power to each axle for any speed difference condition between the axles at any given time. It works just like the differential between right and left wheels, it just does it between front and rear axles.

The All Wheel Drive (AWD) name originated from the ALL THE TIME use of the 4-wheel power that came with the center differential. It did not really mean the all wheels drive (that was given), it meant the 4-wheel power system can be used at all the time on all sorts of road surfaces.

To my knowledge MB does not use center differential in their 4matic system. What they use is a multi disk clutch pack that is closed for transferring power to the other axle. Or they may use a spring loaded clutch that holds certain torque and allows slip if this torque limit is exceeded. This would mean the system is like the old fashioned 4-wheel drive system but have a build-in clutch to protect the drive system components.

The multi disk system means the car can drive as a FWD or RWD car unless slipping is detected and the system closes the disk pack to get power to the other axle. This should be called Part Time 4WD and NOT AWD.

For me the 4matic is NOT a true AWD system as it does not work as one but everyone can call it what they want. It is just amazing how MB has not adapted to use the center differential as it clearly is a better system and to what info I have found is not even more expensive system to build.

Subaru and Toyota use center differential. MB does not or at least this information is nowhere to be found. BMW xDrive also does not have center differential. It has a multi disk pack that loads by a mechanical link actuated by an electric motor. And it also has a drive belt on it... It also is a Part Time 4WD.

And the reason MB and BMW do not use center differential...probably the German pride not to copy what their competition first did especially German competition.

Below videos explain the difference. The first one is about the Audi Quattro system. The second one is the new 4Matic that clearly explains how this car is a FWD vehicle until slip conditions are detected and power is applied to the rear wheel by the multi disk clutch pack, i.e. it really is a Part Time 4WD.

pamiboy

Thanks for that tutorial. Would the system described in CLA which is FWD, be applicable for RWD cars such as E class? I remember reading somewhere that E class uses full time AWD, may be that was a mistake.
Also I read somewhere that the AMG models use LSD differential. Would that system be called proper AWD?
So in your opinion only AUDI /VW, Subaru and Toyota/ Lexus use a true AWD system. It's laughable that almost every car maker uses the AWD terminology in every type of "non2WD".

Arrie

If you find the Subaru video in the net that explains the history of them developing 4WD cars since 1977 it has in part of it where they scroll the years and milestones of the development. I think for 1986 it says AWD (Center Differential). Subaru apparently went with this concept very soon after Audi. I remember very clearly that the AWD name was specifically tied to the drives with center differential, which is the only uncompromised AWD system.
Obviously all makers use this name whether it is a true AWD system or not. And for reason. Many people would not buy a car for 4WD if it was not called AWD.


Mercedes 4Matic is a part time 4WD no matter what they call it.


There may be other car makers who also use center differential. I just put out the ones I know have it.

MBSebas87

Interesting....next time I'll try RWD and some good winter tires for the winter lol... so much for "4Matic"

Arrie

Don't take me wrong. 4Matic still helps tremendously in snow and other slippery conditions. It just is not and cannot be as good as a true AWD system with center differential. For example when the clutch pack wears out over time you will loose the 4WD function of the 4Matic. In a center differential wear of the clutch pack means you will loose the differential lock but the AWD function remains.

Arrie

About the E-class 4Matic, I think it is made so that it "robs" power to front, i.e. it is a RWD no matter if the front axle pulls or not. If the 4Matic fails in E-class it makes the car RWD.


Mercedes calls all 4Matic systems "all time AWD" but their own instructional videos say differently. The new 4-Magic may have been made to operate only under slippery conditions and that may be why C300 comes with staggered setup.

MBSebas87

Always wondered why the E350 sport doesn't come staggered but the C300 sport does

Arrie

This new 4Matic system in the video clip may be coming to the other models too. If it indeed is made to operate under slip conditions only or if it is designed to be connected but allowing slip in the multi disk pack (controlled load) at all times we may see more 4Matic models come out with staggered setup.

Russ103

Thanks for your informative posts btw.

So isn't the E a RWD car until slip is detected basically?

Or is it really full time AWD and robbing HP on the highway all the time?

Arrie

I think E is a RWD all the time and with a clutch power is robbed to the front axle. I don't know what kind of a clutch this is. If I is a dry one and on at all the time it explains why MB does not make it staggered as the smallest tire diameter difference will cause movement in the clutch and wear it. If they use a wet clutch pack as explained in the CLA video then it acts like part time 4WD being RWD other than when slippery conditions are detected.

pamiboy

To sum up, if the E class uses a dry clutch for front wheels, then it is full time AWD (by your own logic) even though not as good as a car with center differential; and if it uses a wet clutch it is a RWD car with part time AWD.

Arrie

If it has the dry coupling it is not AWD, it is the old fashioned 4WD with an "overload" coupling between the axles.


In my book it is only AWD if it is with center differential just like the original naming for the AWD had it. Like I said earlier, everybody can call it what they want. For me the only true AWD is the one that use center differential.


MB, BMW and others not using the center differential are stupid as it is the only true AWD and does not compromise anything. All patents have run out long time ago so it is just amazing the other German car makers don't use it. BMW and MB 4WD systems stop working if the clutch wears out. With center differential it still works as AWD even if the differential locks wear out. Center differential allows for continuous drive on all wheels at all time without causing excess forces in anywhere in the drive system allowing staggered setup etc. without any issues.

mnje350

My 2010 E350 P2 with the sport package has the staggered wheel setup. It is not 4matic however.

Alex.currie44

I have owned at W211 2 WD and 4Matic. The current W212 is 4 Matic.
We get some snow and I use winter tires as we can get temps in the winter where All Seasons start to get stiffer.
The one thing I get caught out on is we get a heavy rains which run across the roads and a lot of standing water. The 4Matic just walks through it.
On the other hand my SLK is RWD and I forget that it doesn't do as well.
The system is 30% FWD and 70% RWD in standard conditions and the system moves the power around based on what the sensors tell it.
For me 4Matic is a really good thing.

Munich77

For me too - I would not want to drive my E550 in winter without having AWD.

Russ103

Do you have any idea of the life expectancy of clutch? I realize that a 4Matic in Alaska will see a shorter life span then in Florida where the clutches could live to be almost as old as the majority of the residents.

How could we even begin to guess that? I've driven the E this winter in snow for 3 or maybe 4 days where I knew and felt all 4 wheels working for traction (did great btw)

I've personally never heard of an AWD system not working due to the clutch being worn out. Is that a sign that they last longer then most people ever keep the cars for?

Arrie

I have no idea how long it takes to wear it out but it will wear out especially if the clutch connects it at all times and you use staggered tire setup that makes a speed difference between the axles. This perfectly explains MB not offering staggered setup for our cars.


If the new (?) 4Matic as shown in the video for the CLA is used then staggered setup works as this system IS NOT even connected at all times, only when slippery conditions are detected, i.e. the clutch pack does not wear due to the speed difference between the axles that comes from the tire size difference. It connects under slippery conditions when some speed difference between axles is ok and does not wear out the parts. This explains why they offer the staggered setup for the C300.


So, the C300 4Matic is a FWD car with part time 4WD coming to help when driving in slippery conditions.

pamiboy

That explanation by Arrie clears up a lot of things. I've always wondered is there any structural / performance difference at all between those AWD systems offered by several manufacturers.

Russ103

I knew there was something that just didn't feel quite right when I had a 2015 C-300 4M as a loaner all day a few weeks ago... Damn FWD!

Thanks again for your informative posts btw