How much did you pay for your W213 E-Class?
01-17-2017, 08:18 AM
#76
Senior Member
As for E300 pricing, there are solid 10% discounts at my local dealer for slower moving cars and easy 6-7% generally, if you approach them positively. They are often happy to make the money money on the financing. At the end, you tell the Finance and Insurance person you will bring a check in the morning.
However and all too often, the dealer will kill you on the trade. So discounts are very relative term. Unless you are very insistent on both ends of the deal, the trade and the buy, there will a winner and it won't be you. We sell privately as a result, so when we talk discount, we know what we are getting. During the downturn we bought a new Benz for all cash at a 25% discount. (I doubt we ever see that again, at least for everyone's sake I hope not.) I'd expect to do a minimum -10% next time round, but not for an E43. At the moment, have my eye on a Classic with 17 inch wheels and an odd mix of options.
Ah, the vanity of it all....indeed, we do pay cash and keep our cars six to eight years. We have always had two and at times three cars. How long we keep them has simply depended on accrued mileage, but sometimes questions of the long term reliability of the particular model (an early direct injection engine, for example). Why do we do this?
Everyone knows that depreciation is huge the first two years. What people fail to realize is that after a while the depreciation cost becomes less and less, all the while we are making 'lease payments" to ourselves in the form of a rigorous saving plan. Those years four, five, six or beyond become sublimely affordable period of ownership as that cash piles up.
Very simply, a lease is another way to solve a cashflow problem for a fee. This fee is sometimes less costly than a purchase loan, but only if the asset is not held long enough. That is the idea of an asset. You hold an asset. Use it fully, at the very least until the cross-over point is reached.
This value is reached when dividing residual book value over remaining useful life of the asset is greater than the depreciation expense for the period computed using a declining balance method. It is why one buys and holds onto cars for six to eight years.
A different way to look at this is the depreciation expense at this extended point of ownership may become as low as $150 a month, while the opportunity cost of owning a new car during this same period in terms of depreciation is huge, in the $1,250-1,500 per month range or more. This decision to own a car or not is not a "finance question". It is an asset management question with a very formal and positive answer.
I think it also important to point out that a high percentage of leasing for a given model vehicle does not influence asset valuation or depreciation other than it floods the used car market with good, solid, low mile vehicles that are an excellent (highly depreciated) value for the used car cash customer. Of course, this makes owning the same car for only two or three years a miserable experience, too. You get killed on the depreciation. Dealers are pretty clever, are they not?
So naturally, one thinks the lease is the better deal. The "deal" is one is not thinking a long enough time horizon to fully appreciate the true value of asset ownership.
The really effective, smart money way to own a Benz or any frequently leased luxury car is to sit on your cash until you see the clean, low mile (15-30k) vehicle you want. Then, pounce and keep that for six or more years. Modern cars are usually reliable until 150,000 miles. If garaged when ever possible, kept out of the sun and kept clean in winter, there is no reason a Benz or other well engineered car should not run 8-10 years very economically, as has proven for three generations of our extended family. Some buy new, some buy used, but all do so at infrequent intervals.
However and all too often, the dealer will kill you on the trade. So discounts are very relative term. Unless you are very insistent on both ends of the deal, the trade and the buy, there will a winner and it won't be you. We sell privately as a result, so when we talk discount, we know what we are getting. During the downturn we bought a new Benz for all cash at a 25% discount. (I doubt we ever see that again, at least for everyone's sake I hope not.) I'd expect to do a minimum -10% next time round, but not for an E43. At the moment, have my eye on a Classic with 17 inch wheels and an odd mix of options.
Ah, the vanity of it all....indeed, we do pay cash and keep our cars six to eight years. We have always had two and at times three cars. How long we keep them has simply depended on accrued mileage, but sometimes questions of the long term reliability of the particular model (an early direct injection engine, for example). Why do we do this?
Everyone knows that depreciation is huge the first two years. What people fail to realize is that after a while the depreciation cost becomes less and less, all the while we are making 'lease payments" to ourselves in the form of a rigorous saving plan. Those years four, five, six or beyond become sublimely affordable period of ownership as that cash piles up.
Very simply, a lease is another way to solve a cashflow problem for a fee. This fee is sometimes less costly than a purchase loan, but only if the asset is not held long enough. That is the idea of an asset. You hold an asset. Use it fully, at the very least until the cross-over point is reached.
This value is reached when dividing residual book value over remaining useful life of the asset is greater than the depreciation expense for the period computed using a declining balance method. It is why one buys and holds onto cars for six to eight years.
A different way to look at this is the depreciation expense at this extended point of ownership may become as low as $150 a month, while the opportunity cost of owning a new car during this same period in terms of depreciation is huge, in the $1,250-1,500 per month range or more. This decision to own a car or not is not a "finance question". It is an asset management question with a very formal and positive answer.
I think it also important to point out that a high percentage of leasing for a given model vehicle does not influence asset valuation or depreciation other than it floods the used car market with good, solid, low mile vehicles that are an excellent (highly depreciated) value for the used car cash customer. Of course, this makes owning the same car for only two or three years a miserable experience, too. You get killed on the depreciation. Dealers are pretty clever, are they not?
So naturally, one thinks the lease is the better deal. The "deal" is one is not thinking a long enough time horizon to fully appreciate the true value of asset ownership.
The really effective, smart money way to own a Benz or any frequently leased luxury car is to sit on your cash until you see the clean, low mile (15-30k) vehicle you want. Then, pounce and keep that for six or more years. Modern cars are usually reliable until 150,000 miles. If garaged when ever possible, kept out of the sun and kept clean in winter, there is no reason a Benz or other well engineered car should not run 8-10 years very economically, as has proven for three generations of our extended family. Some buy new, some buy used, but all do so at infrequent intervals.
The one item I would add falls under the heading "Risk Management". It is not about cost but rather the financial risk of ownership. For example:
1. If the car is totaled, the "upside down" position of getting less from the insurance company vs the payoff (either actual or implicit) is yours if you own the car.
2. If the car is damaged in an accident (bad Carfax), the risk of diminished value if yours if you own the car.
3. The market value of your car drops greater than what you anticipated (leasing calls this residual %), the greater loss in value is yours if you own the car.
4. When the Mercedes starts to requires "engine management control module" for $2,000 and O2 sensors for $500 as the car is outside of the warranty, that expense is yours (unless you buy an extended warranty).
My point is that there are lots of considerations about ownership vs leasing. As years go on and depreciation flattens, it is usually the time when repairs go up.
01-17-2017, 08:31 AM
#77
MBWorld Fanatic!
Time is harder on maintenance costs than mileage. In my experience gaskets and seals deteriorate over time, not miles. That is why I trade cars at 50k miles regardless of the amount of time owned. Using this rule I've traded at 6 month intervals and 8+ year intervals.
01-17-2017, 03:05 PM
#78
Member
I wrote just the other day about risk. It is not so much a question of what risk we would wish to avoid, but to recognize what risks are worth taking. Accepted risks are contingencies to be met. Just have a plan to meet them.
As for accident damage risk, I view this as an acceptable risk. I am much more concerned about my physical safety in an accident, to be frank. I have been hit, sitting at a light twice, one drunk driver and one improperly maintained car. Otherwise, touch wood, if I have been moving there was time to avoid, including once moving over to the shoulder while a car plowed into the next car in line. Then again, I'd rather be lucky that good, any day. The guy who has to worry about being upside down is the 4x4 truck buyer who takes his new toy to the desert and rolls it the first weekend. That is a risk I would not take.
I think some comments about repair and maintenance might be in order. My wife keeps scrupulous records and our experience has been positive or I would not hold the opinions I have written about here. In this, I have two long time friends who are mechanics and I pay them fairly for their work. One is actually a hard working very senior MB tech who maintains a small circle of friend's cars at his home. The other has a great shop, a place where people actually hang out on Saturdays just to shoot the breeze.
We drive our cars 100-120k. I remember once, now some time ago, when we had $2,000 transmission repair, although with prices what they are today, I suppose the next big one might exceed that. At any rate, proper maintenance (fluid replacement in gearbox and brakes are particularly important in the long haul) and timely repair are part of operating expenses amortized over the life of the car. Things like a major $5000 repair only increase total, per mile operation cost by ~ four CENTS on a modern car being run out to the 120k mile territory. A bit of bad luck, but not the end of the known world. This is far less cost increase than the per mile savings of fully depreciating the asset explained in the previous post. This scenario would rate, again, as an acceptable risk.
Maintenance and repairs are a matter of experience and trust within the car repair community that we have come to know over the years. Going to the dealer (at least in my neighborhood in LA area) for non-warranty repairs is something we just would not think of doing. For example, on parts alone, O2 sensors run 75 to 125 dollars, and simply screw in. They are a commodity like light bulbs. Although we have never had a major electronic problem out of warranty, should the need arise, salvage electronic parts such as ECU or ABS control units are in the 600-800 range and work perfectly well. We did have an ABS unit fail at 18,000 miles on one car and a major dash electrical issue at 30k on another. Both warranty repairs. Sensors of various kinds have gone bad, but these are a minor expense. One certain expense is CAT replacement after 150k in California, but we do not drive that many miles on a car.
Did it ever occur to anyone that all the warranty good will, free loaners and such is subsidized for in part by car price and in part by non-warranty repair prices? Or, why would manufactures have attempted to withhold parts and repair manuals from private repair facilities? This has been struck down in court. If warranties were 2 years and 24k miles, repair and maintenance prices would be a lot more competitive, this I can promise you.
In my experience, cars are just getting more and more reliable. If they are more complex, they are also largely self-diagnosing. Even things like seal technology, materials longevity and so forth are simply better today they they were even ten years ago. And, even ten years ago they already were pretty good already for most manufactures. Things like radiator hoses, thermostats and water pumps were once a constant worry and bother. They are relatively long lived today, often not replaced before 100k or more. I can honestly say, car owners never have had to so good.
As for accident damage risk, I view this as an acceptable risk. I am much more concerned about my physical safety in an accident, to be frank. I have been hit, sitting at a light twice, one drunk driver and one improperly maintained car. Otherwise, touch wood, if I have been moving there was time to avoid, including once moving over to the shoulder while a car plowed into the next car in line. Then again, I'd rather be lucky that good, any day. The guy who has to worry about being upside down is the 4x4 truck buyer who takes his new toy to the desert and rolls it the first weekend. That is a risk I would not take.
I think some comments about repair and maintenance might be in order. My wife keeps scrupulous records and our experience has been positive or I would not hold the opinions I have written about here. In this, I have two long time friends who are mechanics and I pay them fairly for their work. One is actually a hard working very senior MB tech who maintains a small circle of friend's cars at his home. The other has a great shop, a place where people actually hang out on Saturdays just to shoot the breeze.
We drive our cars 100-120k. I remember once, now some time ago, when we had $2,000 transmission repair, although with prices what they are today, I suppose the next big one might exceed that. At any rate, proper maintenance (fluid replacement in gearbox and brakes are particularly important in the long haul) and timely repair are part of operating expenses amortized over the life of the car. Things like a major $5000 repair only increase total, per mile operation cost by ~ four CENTS on a modern car being run out to the 120k mile territory. A bit of bad luck, but not the end of the known world. This is far less cost increase than the per mile savings of fully depreciating the asset explained in the previous post. This scenario would rate, again, as an acceptable risk.
Maintenance and repairs are a matter of experience and trust within the car repair community that we have come to know over the years. Going to the dealer (at least in my neighborhood in LA area) for non-warranty repairs is something we just would not think of doing. For example, on parts alone, O2 sensors run 75 to 125 dollars, and simply screw in. They are a commodity like light bulbs. Although we have never had a major electronic problem out of warranty, should the need arise, salvage electronic parts such as ECU or ABS control units are in the 600-800 range and work perfectly well. We did have an ABS unit fail at 18,000 miles on one car and a major dash electrical issue at 30k on another. Both warranty repairs. Sensors of various kinds have gone bad, but these are a minor expense. One certain expense is CAT replacement after 150k in California, but we do not drive that many miles on a car.
Did it ever occur to anyone that all the warranty good will, free loaners and such is subsidized for in part by car price and in part by non-warranty repair prices? Or, why would manufactures have attempted to withhold parts and repair manuals from private repair facilities? This has been struck down in court. If warranties were 2 years and 24k miles, repair and maintenance prices would be a lot more competitive, this I can promise you.
In my experience, cars are just getting more and more reliable. If they are more complex, they are also largely self-diagnosing. Even things like seal technology, materials longevity and so forth are simply better today they they were even ten years ago. And, even ten years ago they already were pretty good already for most manufactures. Things like radiator hoses, thermostats and water pumps were once a constant worry and bother. They are relatively long lived today, often not replaced before 100k or more. I can honestly say, car owners never have had to so good.
Last edited by Mike__S; 01-17-2017 at 07:59 PM.
01-17-2017, 03:16 PM
#79
MBWorld Fanatic!
I wrote just the other day about risk. It is not so much a question of what risk we would wish to avoid, but to recognize what risks are worth taking. Accepted risks are contingencies to be met. Just have a plan to meet them.
As for accident damage risk, I view this as an acceptable risk. I am much more concerned about my physical safety in an accident, to be frank. I have been hit, sitting at a light twice, one drunk driver and one improperly maintained car. Otherwise, touch wood, if I have been moving there was time to avoid, including once moving over to the shoulder while a car plowed into the next car in line. Then again, I'd rather be lucky that good, any day. The guy who has to worry about being upside down is the 4x4 truck buyer who takes his new toy to the desert and rolls it the first weekend. That is a risk I would not take.
I think some comments about repair and maintenance might be in order. My wife keeps scrupulous records and our experience has been positive or I would not hold the opinions I have written about here. In this, I have two long time friends who are mechanics and I pay them fairly for their work. One is actually a hard working very senior MB tech who maintains a small circle of friend's cars at his home. The other has a great shop, a place where people actually hang out on Saturdays just to shoot the breeze.
We drive our cars 100-120k. I remember once, now some time ago, when we had $2,000 transmission repair, although with prices what they are today, I suppose the next big one might exceed that. At any rate, proper maintenance (fluid replacement in gearbox and brakes are particularly important in the long haul) and timely repair are part of operating expenses amortized over the life of the car. Things like a major $5000 repair only increase total, per mile operation cost by ~ four CENTS on a modern car being run out to the 120k mile territory. A bit of bad luck, but not the end of the known world. This is far less than the per mile savings of fully depreciating the asset explained in the previous post. This scenario would rate, again, as an acceptable risk.
Maintenance and repairs are a matter of experience and trust within the car repair community that we have come to know over the years. Going to the dealer (at least in my neighborhood in LA area) for non-warranty repairs is something we just would not think of doing. For example, on parts alone, O2 sensors run 75 to 125 dollars, and simply screw in. They are a commodity like light bulbs. Although we have never had a major electronic problem out of warranty, should the need arise, salvage electronic parts such as ECU or ABS control units are in the 600-800 range and work perfectly well. We did have an ABS unit fail at 18,000 miles on one car and a major dash electrical issue at 30k on another. Sensors of various kinds have gone bad, but these are a minor expense. One certain expense is CAT replacement after 150k in California, but we do drive that many miles on the a car.
Did it every occur to anyone that all the warranty good will, free loaners and such is subsidized for in part by non-warranty repair prices? Or, why would manufactures have attempted to withhold parts and repair manuals from private repair facilities? This has been struck down in court. If warranties were 2 years and 24k miles, repair and maintenance prices would be a lot more competitive, this I can promise you.
In my experience, cars are just getting more and more reliable. If they are more complex, they are also largely self-diagnosing. Even things like seal technology, materials longevity and so forth are simply better today they they were even ten years ago. And. ten years ago they were pretty good already for most manufactures. Things like radiator hoses, thermostats and water pumps were once a constant worry and bother. They are relatively long lived today, often not replaced before 100k or more. I can honestly say, car owners never have had to so good.
As for accident damage risk, I view this as an acceptable risk. I am much more concerned about my physical safety in an accident, to be frank. I have been hit, sitting at a light twice, one drunk driver and one improperly maintained car. Otherwise, touch wood, if I have been moving there was time to avoid, including once moving over to the shoulder while a car plowed into the next car in line. Then again, I'd rather be lucky that good, any day. The guy who has to worry about being upside down is the 4x4 truck buyer who takes his new toy to the desert and rolls it the first weekend. That is a risk I would not take.
I think some comments about repair and maintenance might be in order. My wife keeps scrupulous records and our experience has been positive or I would not hold the opinions I have written about here. In this, I have two long time friends who are mechanics and I pay them fairly for their work. One is actually a hard working very senior MB tech who maintains a small circle of friend's cars at his home. The other has a great shop, a place where people actually hang out on Saturdays just to shoot the breeze.
We drive our cars 100-120k. I remember once, now some time ago, when we had $2,000 transmission repair, although with prices what they are today, I suppose the next big one might exceed that. At any rate, proper maintenance (fluid replacement in gearbox and brakes are particularly important in the long haul) and timely repair are part of operating expenses amortized over the life of the car. Things like a major $5000 repair only increase total, per mile operation cost by ~ four CENTS on a modern car being run out to the 120k mile territory. A bit of bad luck, but not the end of the known world. This is far less than the per mile savings of fully depreciating the asset explained in the previous post. This scenario would rate, again, as an acceptable risk.
Maintenance and repairs are a matter of experience and trust within the car repair community that we have come to know over the years. Going to the dealer (at least in my neighborhood in LA area) for non-warranty repairs is something we just would not think of doing. For example, on parts alone, O2 sensors run 75 to 125 dollars, and simply screw in. They are a commodity like light bulbs. Although we have never had a major electronic problem out of warranty, should the need arise, salvage electronic parts such as ECU or ABS control units are in the 600-800 range and work perfectly well. We did have an ABS unit fail at 18,000 miles on one car and a major dash electrical issue at 30k on another. Sensors of various kinds have gone bad, but these are a minor expense. One certain expense is CAT replacement after 150k in California, but we do drive that many miles on the a car.
Did it every occur to anyone that all the warranty good will, free loaners and such is subsidized for in part by non-warranty repair prices? Or, why would manufactures have attempted to withhold parts and repair manuals from private repair facilities? This has been struck down in court. If warranties were 2 years and 24k miles, repair and maintenance prices would be a lot more competitive, this I can promise you.
In my experience, cars are just getting more and more reliable. If they are more complex, they are also largely self-diagnosing. Even things like seal technology, materials longevity and so forth are simply better today they they were even ten years ago. And. ten years ago they were pretty good already for most manufactures. Things like radiator hoses, thermostats and water pumps were once a constant worry and bother. They are relatively long lived today, often not replaced before 100k or more. I can honestly say, car owners never have had to so good.
There is one disturbing trend however, electrical snafus are becoming more frequent. Though major mechanical components are better than ever thanks to electronic controls, entertainment systems and other nonessential electronic systems are becoming more of a hassle. That is to be expected given the speed at which these systems are being introduced. In many instances it seems that the buyers of the first generation of a new model are being used as beta testers.
01-17-2017, 04:43 PM
#80
MBWorld Fanatic!
There is still too much sample variance. I have yet to purchase a car that didn't require major repairs during its first 20,000 miles. My 2015 E400 destroyed a wheel bearing at high speed in its first month. I was lucky to save the car. That car was replaced with another 2015 E400 by the dealer as a good will gesture. I've been buying new Mercedes from that dealer every 2 or 3 years since 1967.
01-19-2017, 05:10 PM
#81
Wow that's really bad luck... major repair during first 20k miles for all your cars? Wonder why... None of my cars has required major repairs at all. Obviously has something to do with the fact that I haven't owned a car past 35k miles in the past few years... However repairs shouldn't really be expected on low mileage cars.
