Privatembx

Hi all,

I just ordered an E200d and I was wondering where I could find some more information about the speaker placement of the standard audio system.

Until now, I found that the car is equipped with 7 speakers and subwoofer. But that's actually it.

Anyone got more info on this?

Much appreciated

vladarh

I think the standard system only has 4 door speakers and a "woofer", same as in the C class.

ADD0514

Yep, not much out there - https://www.burmester.de/en/automoti...z/e-class.html .
Count the number of speakers on the A pillars, front doors, back doors, then add the woofer hidden in the foot well area.
The sounds are DSP shaped and amplified by class D amplifiers. You can finds many discussions in this forum about the sound quality. Keep in mind, you'll find a wide spectrum of opinions on this subject.
To me, the base system in the E300 loaners has a very balanced sound with fairly good frequency extensions. The $850 upgrade on my E300 isn't much better than the base system - I feel that the value of the upgrade wasn't on par with the cost
I found myself tapping my fingers along with the music in the loaner I got yesterday because I was listening to the music without any expectation in term of SQ.

Hope this helps.

Privatembx

Well, it's definitely not 4 since I'm currently driving a 2014 C-class and the base system has 6 speakers. 2 (low + high) in the Front doors and 1 in each back door.

vladarh

I also have the W205 and it has 4+1. I would know, did a complete upgrade of the system. But maybe you meant the 2014 W204?

Mike__S

Number of speakers is not an essential criteria for sound quality beyond may be four and a bass unit. Really.

A tight, distortion free amplifier is first requirement. Most 12v amps are notoriously poor compared to home audio components of any quality. They have often had 2 and 3% harmonic distortion, and even worse at higher power. Specs have improved but not as much as they could for standard car radio.

We need .1% THD and a good clean 60watts power. Some small speakers can demand 200w for a loud passage, so we can say that a true RMS 200w at .1% THD would be plenty. Manufactures still do not publish meaningful data. Even Burmeister, whoever they are, claim "800w" or what ever and this is so much advertising hyperbole. Complete BS with out real testing standard applied and quoted.

Speakers. The biggest problem with automotive interiors is speaker placement. Not going to delve into this too much, but it is important that the car interior be designed specifically with speaker placement designed in, along with all the other things a car interior must be.

Assuming placement is satisfactory, making low distortion speakers, especially small ones, is dependent on materials and here a lot or a just medium money can be spent for good results. But, compact design requirements make using off the shelf speaker components problematic. The real problem with car speakers is simple mediocrity. Most car speakers are $5 dollar a piece plastic and paper junk. This should not be. At the same time we do not need $200 per unit speakers, if we design a good stiff, compliant speaker cone with proper magnets to control its motion at say $50 each wholesale. Tweeters, good dome tweeters are not terribly expensive now day. So, we should expect high dispersion low distortion high end units at $20 each.

Subwoofers are pretty straight forward, too. Here distortion and placement is not quite as critical, but design is still critical. The biggest problem is not having serious parts of the car rattle or buzz at higher volume sound. So, we have both an interior design issue and a subwoofer design issue to solve. This can involve considerable testing and engineering time, but physical unit cost is not more than $75-100. Note that deep sound requires the most power, so it might be wise to consider self powered sub-woofer that reaches up into the 60hz region. This would isolate power requirements and leave the head unit amp with less work to do.

But, 14 speakers or what ever? Clever little motorized tweeters? Over kill for sure. But, then we have a design statement to make and need some reason to justify the 3-5000 dollar price of high end factory car audio.

The whole thing can be done with the highest possible audio quality for a real target of $2500. Or, as some have done, simply replace their standard speakers with Dynaudio, Focal or other high quality parts and install a properly rated amplifier. The sound may not rival a fully high end $2500 factor system (or the completely over priced options), but it will be a huge improvement of most all standard systems, including the $400-1000 "factory" options.

gooner

the standard e class has 7 speakers (including subwoofer), we know 4 of those are the 4" midrange speakers in the doors, the question is what/where are the other 3?

There are no tweeters on the back doors in the base system going by the lack of tweeter grilles in the online configurator

it's hard to get info on the W213

but i think the other 3 speakers are 1 sub + 2 front door tweeters. I base this on the fact that all pics of the base W213 show a front door/window tweeter grill and so I assume they are not empty.




IMHO, it's a waste of money ordering anything other than the base speakers if you are remotely particular about your music. For the price of the +1 Burmester, you can assemble a much better sounding system and for the price of the +2 (so called 3D) which is just a complete rip off, you'll have a truly awesome system!!!

Considering that the cost of the +1 Burmester is about 1100 Euros and if you like your music it is ****, for about $100 you can get 2 sets of say Alpine coaxials for the doors and you are already half way to a decent sounding system. throw in a few hundred more and you'll solve the bass problems. One good thing about going with the Audio 20 is you don't have complex algorithms encoded into your signals

This guy has a few videos on w213 audio, nothing too complex but gives you ideas on what you can do with the base audio without spending too much

https://www.youtube.com/user/KoYoonIl/search?query=w213

http://blog.naver.com/yoonillove/220922108990



and this is what you get with your +1 Burmester

http://picclick.it/Mercedes-Benz-E-C...684288320.html

c4004matic

Yes

gooner

del

gooner

"On goes the latest-gen COMAND Online system, which offers Apple CarPlay and Android Auto integration, and as for audio system choices, these start from an Audio 20 with a seven-speaker, four channel-amp configuration. A mid-line 13-speaker, nine-channel Burmester surround sound system is a step up, and there’s also a new Burmester high-end 3D surround sound system, which brings the speaker count to a whopping 23."

http://paultan.org/2016/06/08/driven...***-in-lisbon/

"New Heat Comfort for heated armrest in doors and in center console.COMAND Online system, offer Android auto integration and Apple CarPlay, Audio 20 with seven speaker, four channel-amp , mid line 13 speaker, nine channel Burmester surround system, even comes up with Burmester 3D surround sound."

http://www.dayshoppe.com/2016/06/10/...z-w213-e-class



2X front midrange + 2X front tweeters + 2X rear midrange + 1 hidden sub

c4004matic

Agree with all you've said here.
The standard "Burmeister" is quite good for a car stereo. Though its a little imprecise in the lower frequencies. The one on my c400 has developed an intermittent low frequency distortion on the drivers side midrange speaker, I think something has vibrated loose. The system failed when the car was quite new and had to be replaced. I think one of its biggest shortcoming is the very simple and limited tone controls, it should have at least 2 more frequencies to facilitate better tailoring of the spectrum. At a bare minimum another control for midbass. As it is the system can produce very deep bass but frequencies around 120 HZ sound bloated and imprecise if you want to enjoy the very deep notes. The high frequencies are a little stunted but fairly clear. Compared to other "premium" systems from other manufacturers like "mark levinson", Id say its about par overall. The biggest "improvement" you get for the 3D system is a larger separately powered sub that eats trunk space, and a multitude of additional small tweeters around the cabin. Of course it also includes the ridiculous twirling midranges on the doors. For an additional 5K its a blatant ripoff. That's what I paid for a 1000 watt twin 12in radiator B&W DB1 (I have 2 in my living room)that would blow up every window in a car, if not the car itself! In fact, despite being a die hard audiophile (aka an idiot that spends way too much on audio stuff) the only option I didn't order on my E 43 was the 3D stereo. Its akin to the 3000 dollar optional Tag Heuer clock on Porches a completely ridiculous knickknack.

c4004matic

In the US, the Burmester system is the standard system. It was strange to see those black speaker grills!

gooner

that is actually a us car I pulled from cars.com

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...1456/overview/

Burmester only comes if you include premium pack 1 which I assume many do so it's rare to see the base audio

gooner

interesting that Burmester is still lurking about in the software......this pic is from the same car

c4004matic

I don't think I've seen any base models the ones I have seen are usually priced in the high 60's/low 70K.

ngerstman

Well done write up. You are absolutely correct in pointing out just how cheap good speaker drivers could actually cost versus using really crappy drivers, a difference of only a few hundred dollars. So much of what the auto companies charge for "upgrade" stereos is nothing but a money grab and a bunch of marketing. The Mark Levenson sound system in a Lexus has very little relationship to hundred pound ML amplifiers! By the way I have those pop up tweeters in the B&O sound system in my just purchased Audi s8, an expensive upgrade not worth the money. Thanks. Regards. Ned.

vladarh

Interesting, so they decided to put front tweeters into the base audio... Hm, maybe they actually read this forum And if you are MB, please get rid of the frontbass!!! Put normal mid-bass speakers in the doors!

Mike__S

I am not sure we can simply "dis" the front bass out of hand. It is a design solution I can understand. Human hearing has poor directional sense of low frequencies, and where the base comes from is not critical. Even a bit of distortion (2-5%) way down in the 20-35 hz region is not noticed very often. Also, I have listened to the optional US Package 1 sound. It is not so bad I would feel obliged to do anything about it other they enjoy it for what it is.

Might I suggest your comments be weighed against what I believe to be reasonable theory and practice......

gooner

they have some sort of mid-bass in the front doors on the so called "3d" top Burmester in the w213. I reckon they are 13cm. H4/72 in the attached... they appear larger than the 10cm midranges but smaller than the front bass which we know are are 16cm.

gooner

if there weren't deficiencies in the set up they wouldn't be adding additional door woofers and a dedicated sub in the 3d version. Been a while since I built a system but I always used 16cm for mid bass, 13cm for mid range plus tweeters and subs. So to think that they can get away with a 16cm sub system and 10cm for everything else and market it as an "audiophile" system is quite frankly incredulous...then again so is the whole concept of the E43!!! But then I remember watching an online S63 review and the guy was about to have an orgasm, not over the stereo itself but the Spinning Burmester tweeters, so I guess there are people out there who are willing to pay to have an AMG or Burmester even if what you are getting is not the real deal.

there is a difference between building a decent low budget sonically complete system (which is what I'd do if you gave me $1000 or less) and then offering a higher powered version with better quality components (f you had say $3000+) and what Merc and Burmester are doing which is offering incomplete system to begin with and them offering a higher priced versions with the same cheap starting components just adding more and more cheap stuff in a bid to complete the system that was defective from the start. The same cheap speakers in the base w205 are the same cheap speakers in the "high end 3D" Burmester in the W222.....I checked the part nos

IMHO every car should have a 16cm door speaker at the very least so worst case you stick a set of cheap alpines or whatever and you have a decent sounding system.

The problem with 16cm in the firewall behind some carpets is that some of the upper frequencies that a 16 should handle are directional and a 16 is not the kind of speaker you use for sub bass so it becomes pointless arrangement because you end up with the puny 10cms handling lower than they really should be asked to and 16s that can't do the job of subs. The fact that you will struggle to find an audio manufacturer who markets 16cm subwoofers tells you all you need to know about the suitability of 16cms for sub bass.

It's a design solution, you are right but it is a design solution to milk every penny out of their customers by making it more difficult to get an aftermarket stereo system. You only have to look at the connectors on the 10cm midrange speakers , they don't want to make it easy for us. Theyve cornered the tuning, the after market wheels, head units and now they want stereo system upgrades by using unconventional speaker configurations. The problem is a true audiophile stereo system and the need to reduce weight in cars do not go hand in hand. Manufacturers obsessed with weight saving to the extent of removing the spare wheel are not going to add the requisite speakers with big magnets to produce the system they are selling at audiophile prices! I am sure all the 24 speakers in the high end Burmester combined weigh less than 2 typical 10" subs.

Mike__S

Are you sure mid-bass speaker cones are the only thing that should measure 16 cm in order to not be deficient? I'm beginning to wonder....

I have a set of ears like everyone else. I'll stick with the simple statement that the P1 option stereo as not all that bad sounding, what ever audiophile deficiencies can be claimed of it. And, if my impression that has a decent bass reach because of a Mickey Mouse sub-woofer setup, it is not really a problem. I understand much of the world around me is compromise at best.

What I do know is nothing ever put in a car driving down the road will come close to a good home setup. For this reason I never worry too much as long as it does not have glaring sonic deficiencies. You know, like I cannot understand spoken words, or violins sound like someone scratching their fingernails on a blackboard, or the sound cannot do an approximation of symphonic timpani. But, perfection I do not expect. Far from it.

When I get home I can always crank up the Audiovector setup. A quiet room, an old club chair and some music soothes the beast far better than trying to drive, don't you know?.

ngerstman

The 16cm driver or 6.25 inch is one of the more versatile speakers on the planet. It is often used as a midwoofer in tons of two way speaker systems, some costing many thousands of dollars. It can also be used as a midrange and even occasionally a woofer down to 50-75hz in the right enclosure. It all depends on what the driver is built for, the enclosure, how it's cross overed and some use of eq. In the car environment you shouldn't expect to get too much below 80-100hz out of a 16cm driver and would want to hand it off to a sub below that. Regards. Ned.

gooner

There are certain circumstances you wouldn't want to own up to 16cm lol

My sister has the W205 and the burmester! That system is crap... headache inducing crap and that just killed Burmester for me. But my real rant is with the high end 3d versions (which is not an option on the W205, I'm talking w213 now)...not worth the money because you can build a better sounding system for the money.

Back to the +1, in the states you get +1 as part of premium package, which as you noted everybody options, so you guys dont really have much of a choice in the matter. What I am simply saying is if you are ordering the car from scratch in other parts of the world like myself and the OP where your stereo choice is not included in any package then IMHO you are better off with the base audio 20 system speakers and use the savings (roughly $900) for a system that will sound better than the +1 for the same money. If you must have the Burmester grills they are available on ebay for $30.


It's a different thing if the car came with the +1 as standard as I'm not seeking the loud music of my youth but I also am not paying for crap, I am quite happy starting off with the Audio 20 and using the price of the upgrade to the +1 Burmester to get a system better than the +1



Assuming the signals from the audio 20 are clean and unprocessed A quick back of envelope calculation:

Using mid level named brand Pioneer/alpine etc and Amazon prices
full range door speakers $100
1X boxed shallow 10" sub $100
5 channel amp $200
2X 16 cm fire wall woofers $100

you have $400 left for additionals or improving the components above

gooner

On my past systems I cut off my subs @ 80hz (I think, though it could have been 120hz, this was many moons ago and I was always tweaking with them) anyway I know my 16cm mid bass ran from there up to 400hz where the 13cms took over handing over to the tweets at 4k... all active.

The highs were crisp, the vocals were rich (if I say so myself probably the best Ive ever heard till today) and the mid bass was tight and punchy, the subs were a bit temperamental depending on the source music because I always had them free air, so the thought of puny 10cm speakers having to do all that just gives me the creeps because Ive never heard a decent factory 10cm speaker!! 10 cm speakers also scare me because Ive heard one after-market custom install (not sure if they were focals or hertz) that sounded screechy, so I'm not sure if it's the brand, the signal processing or that there's only so much you can achieve with 10cms.

ngerstman

I've had many after market high end systems in cars of the past, all were pretty much three way, with 6.5 inch midwoofers, 1 inch tweeters and anywhere from 8 to 12 inch subs. Never went the four way route, more complicated for install as well as crossovers, positioning and amplification. You can get great sound with just 9-10 speakers done well with quality parts all around(front and back). I have had many c class loaners with Burmester and did not like the sound, no warmth and terrible resonance in the bass I could not tone control away. Regards. Ned.