jasonjeross

The hits just keep coming.

I bought a brand new 2012 GL350 last year.

Fast forward to last week. The car has 50,800 miles on the dot. The warranty is 4 yrs/50,000. You know where this is going:

Issues:

Creaking noise on driver's front. Diagnosis at dealer: Worn out upper and lower control arm bushings.

Rough start after car has been sitting over night. Diagnosis at dealer: Stretched timing chain and worn chain guides (they called them "ramps").

Oil cooler leaking.


So of course what does the dealer say? Yep, "Sorry sir you are out of warranty".

BULL****.

Technically...YES the car is past the warranty, however let's talk about some facts here:

This is a VERY expensive car. One of the main reasons I bought the damn thing was because it had a TIMING CHAIN. I hate ****ing timing belt jobs on daily drivers.

Then let's talk about the issues we have had with this car:

0 miles on the clock: Screw in tire in the garage. They had to swap a brand new tire from another truck before I even opened the door.

29 miles on the clock: SES light. Cause? DEF fluid temp sensor gets splashed with water in cold weather and PCM has too low a timeout value. Takes the dealer 3 months to get new code to update the car so it won't incorrectly set that light off.

2500 miles: Car won't start at all sometimes (turn key, nothing happens...no noise...nada). Dealer replaces entire ignition key/etc. Car starts. Funny part is three weeks later we get a call saying there is an open campaign for just that issue. I said "We just had the ignition component replaced and it works great now". They said, "Yes sir, but we need to do it again otherwise the campaign will still report "open" on your records". OK.

20,000 miles: Coolant and oil leak. Dealer replaces some gaskets/etc and of course tops up coolant and oil. At the same visit the dealer tells me that we have less than 20 starts left before the car won't start due to low AdBlu fluid (that is DEF in the real world). I laugh as the car has a warning that will popup IF the fluid is really that low, yet it hasn't. Even funnier is I had just added 3 gallons of that a month ago during an oil change. Good thing I'm not suspicious that they wanted to nail me for $300 in "AdBlu service" when the ****ing DEF fluid is $12 for 2.5 gallons at Walmart (the car takes approximately 7 gallons total...do the math).

50,800 miles: All the details above.

So, now I put in a call to MBUSA (which the dealer was less than happy about after I gave them 2 days to change their minds). They are going to "review" my case and call me back within 24 hours. Of course they ask "Did you use the dealer for maintenance?". **** no. And PLEASE tell me how the **** I would be able to destroy a DOUBLE CHAIN timing belt system in 50,800 miles.

So what IS the problem? I think it's a bit obvious:

The engine starts like it's misfiring for 2-4 seconds after it has been sitting for several hours (temperature doesn't really matter outside). The dealer tells me that is due to the stretched timing chain. I ask, "Why in the world would a stretched timing chain be WORSE when it's cold and better when it's hot?". Service advisors says, "<long pause> I am just repeating what the tech stated".

Now....let's talk physics: We all know what metal does when hot and cold. Expand and contract. Not the opposite. So then I pulled up a diagram of the timing chain system on the engine. Indeed there it is! A hydraulic tensioner that is oil fed from the block! Well...that certainly is interesting (makes one pine for the "old" sealed units our DSM's use). I do a google for hydraulic tensioner issues on the OM642 engine (they are used in Sprinter vans as well).

Guess what I found? The part has been redesigned as people are reporting the tensioner is not holding oil and after time it leaks down and doesn't perform as designed until the engine has been running for a bit and oil is pumped back in.

THAT would explain the conditions of the issue.

Oh, but it gets better. The dealer tells me "Well sir, this is a $5500 job". To change a timing chain and tensioner? ****ING REALLY? My mind is melting right now.

So, let's see where this goes. My guess is they first try to offer a 50% deal. **** that. I want 100%. I have never heard of this **** with a timing chain. The control arm bushings.....ehhhh...ridiculous too, but more acceptable. A timing chain at 50,800? No way. Design flaw, fix your ****.

Of course I am sure they are going to somehow blame me for oil selection (despite me using one of the approved oils). I'm sure they are going to blame me for not taking it into the dealer for service (yes yes...their $400 oil change is far superior to my $95 oil change with the same filter and oil I buy locally)

alx

what oil did you use?

the tensioners have never been a problem. the design has been largely unchanged from 2007 on and there are plenty 250k plus mile mills still clattering happily...

my bet is dirty injectors due to bad (or bio) diesel...

jasonjeross

I always use Valvoline SynPower MST 5W-40 (which indeed meets the 229.51 spec).

NOTE: The rough start ONLY happens after the car has been sitting for several hours. If for example you drive it to the store, come back 30 minutes later, the car starts fine. This makes think indeed it could be the tensioner losing oil over extended off time.

If it were the injector(s) one would think it would ALWAYS do this.

alx

dirty injectors will always have spray pattern problems after sitting for a while as the gunk solidifies. once they spray a few times they clear up. i have seen this on multiple occasions.

it is possible it is your tensioner, but very unlikely.

the oil you use is ok, but you really should have no reason to stray from the factory mobil 1 5w40 esp.

let us know how it goes.

for all intents and purposes the 3 liter diesel mb engine is bulletproof.

jasonjeross

The only reason I don't use the Mobil 1 oil is due to lack of availability. Impossible to find in a store. Synpower is on the shelf at Napa.

I'm with you on this, the MAIN reason I bought the damn car was the use of a double roller timing chain. How the dealer is claiming stretch on a car this low mileage is beyond me. My next call is to the dealer to ask the amount of stretch (I know there are tolerances/max allowed stretch). If indeed it's a case of injector gunk and NOT the chain I am going to rip them a new one.

N_Jay

As one of my friends likes to say in situations like this.
"Lower your IQ 25 points and ask again."

E.G.

"I don't understand."
"What could I have possible done to cause I this to happen?"
"How did the chain stretch in the last 800 miles?"
"Well if it started stretching before the warranty expired, I am sure it is covered."

jasonjeross

This is funny, but very sage advice. There is NO way this could happen overnight (if it even happened as I have zero evidence from them at this point that it really is a stretched chain).

The audacity of this situation is amazing. NO ONE can justify timing chain stretch at 50,800 without something majorly wrong in the engineering department.

N_Jay

We all get into the habit of getting angree, showing all we know, and asking for the world, when arguing warranty issues.

It is usually better to just be nice, be firm, and be a bit dim.

jasonjeross

UPDATE: Just got off the phone with MBUSA and the dealer.

MBUSA says, "Because the car was not serviced in the dealership network we are not going to help you, but the dealership is offering a 15% service discount".

Dealership service advisor when asked HOW they determined the "timing chain is stretched" states:

We compared the startup sound to a stored sound sample on our computer from another car that had similar issues.

WHAT THE ****!? Yes, that's right, they have NOT removed **** from the engine to actually measure any timing chain stretch. NOTHING.

Oh and the "oil cooler seals are leaking". Price? $3500.00.

Enough is a ****ing nough. I'm taking the car back, driving right down the road to an indy MB shop that I've dealt with (and zero issues) to get their eyes on this. I swear to christ I am about to murder. I've never been left with such a ****ty purchase experience in my life.

jasonjeross

Oh and before anyone asks, they had NOTHING to say when I mentioned "Was the engine filled with sludge, wiped bearing, ANY indication of engine wear?" Of course, not. They never even opened the engine to look. All this is based on comparison to a sound file on a computer from another car that had this issue. ONE sample (which he admitted is the only example they have ever had in relation to this).

Let's take bets on what the issue REALLY is.

KrustyKustom

I am not doubting your story, but dang...seriously a stretched timing chain? Usually this would only occur with super high miles or really hard miles like towing. Does it do it every cold startup? Perhaps there is some trash in the hydraulic assembly that pumps up with oil pressure. Maybe they need to check oil pressure as well with a gauge?

I have a similar front end creak but it is really inconsistent. Hard to repeat, but sometimes it will really clunk.

I will be curious as to what the Indy shop finds or recommends.

jasonjeross

No it does not happen every startup. The issue only happens if the car has been sitting for hours (usually overnight).

NOTE: The dealer does NOT know if it's really the timing chain as I discovered. They "recorded the sound" and compared it to a recording of another OM64 engine that had the same sound and that car had a timing chain stretch issue. There also would be oil sludge, wiped out rod bearings, you name it. Of course the car has none of this and the dealer is acting like physics and logic don't exist in their universe.

In other words, the dealer needs to learn how to diagnose cars properly and stop trying to scare customers with utter nonsense/BS. I suspect it's MUCH less serious. I already warned them I am retaining an attorney. I'm also going to go for the jugular if it turns out to be a minor fix. Imagine how pissed I would be if I stupidly paid them to "tear it down to diagnose" only to find out it was something else. Yes, that's right....they will NOT diagnose it properly without me paying out the nose.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but on that engine they do NOT need to "tear the whole front of the engine down" as the engine is OHC and they could remove a valve cover and measure stretch at the cam gears no??

Shifter

Dang. Sounds like if you just dealer serviced it it would not be a problem right now. But since there is no evidence of service , how can they warranty an engine issue?

Also how can you expect the dealership to tear apart the engine without your permission?

N_Jay

Time to get the odometer certified, bet with lowest safe tire pressure it might read 1.5% fast and then you would be under 50K miles.

jasonjeross

That's ridiculous. If the warranty is ONLY valid if you have the dealer change oil and filters don't you think that would be a slight deterrent to buying a car? I do. In fact I would never have bought the car if that was written or expressed (it's not).

The dealer and MBUSA are using that as an excuse to do nothing. Also, it would be painfully easy to prove that maintenance issues were the cause if they actually were.

As for the engine tear down comment: I expected the dealer to be honest when telling me a critical engine component was the cause. In reality when I asked for proof, their "proof" was exactly what I thought it was......a WAG (wild *** guess). If you can diagnose engines by ear with accuracy then you will be a millionaire. Of course real mechanics don't (Fast and Furious is a great example of this comedy).

If the dealer simply said, "We don't know WHAT it is, but we have to perform a tear down of X to determine this" that would have been a different story. Instead they go down the scare tactic route by going right for the expensive guess and then initially claiming this as fact. It's not fact at this point. In fact it's likely much much less serious. The dealer is far from done with me at this point. Dealers like this need to be taught a lesson.

N_Jay

I would also bet the mileage of the failure not the report is what matters.
Both the oil leak and the starting issues probably started prior to 50K if 50.800 was when you took it in.

If it is under warranty, where you had it serviced is of no issue.
If it is out of warranty, your use of their service is a valid issue for "good will" consideration.

You need to make sure you are pushing to prove it is a warranty issue and not settling for a little "good will" compensation.

jasonjeross

MBUSA is offering zero/none/nothing in terms of goodwill. Their official answer, "Well the car was not serviced in the dealership network so this is our final answer".

Nothing else was revealed or stated. That's right, a flat out "Go away!".

Dealership? 15% off labor.

I've got the general manager on this and I'm escalating to the dealership owner.

I expect absolutely no satisfaction at this point. Car is out of my life after I get this mess resolved. I've had better experiences with econo boxes from Ford (which speaks volumes). A car falling apart at 50K on the clock is ridiculous and should be a manufacturer's embarrasment. Instead they place all blame on me. I guess 20+ years of cars and several over 200,000 on the clock = a guy that does not know how to maintain cars. Makes sense!

I certainly appreciate your insight on this and I 100% agree. There is no way these issues magically happened in the last 800 miles. In fact if they did I'd really be concerned about the overall safety if bushings, oil coolers, and timing chains from MB disintegrate in 800 mile intervals (comedy). Unfortunately MB is taking the **** poor path and blaming service on this depsite lack of any proof that that was the cause (let alone proving what the actual issue even is).

alx

this is how i see it...

thoughts in random order

1. you are not eligible for warranty work as you are over the mileage. end of story. i agree that if you have a mechanical problem it was prolly presented before the warranty expired. this is irrelevant - you brought up the issue after the warranty expired. dont kill me. that is just my non-mb-endorsed take on it.

2. diagnosing a stretched chain will run about 8 hours @ $150 / hour. you will be responsible for this charge because of #1. i think the dealer is actually doing you a favor by not diving into the motor as this will be just as expensive as the fix. besides, if this is not the problem they will have to find and repair the real problem for free.

3. not servicing at the dealership means nothing. there is law that states that the onus is on the dealer to prove the failure is due to service outside of dealership. they cant- especially if you have your receipts for maintenance work done

4. i still do not think it is your timing chain. if it is stretched you will have drivability and noise issues all the time. stretched chain means timing is off all the time.

my advise is to go get a second opinion at another dealership and if they come up with the same diagnose - bite the bullet. if they come up with a different one - raise hell.

jasonjeross

Point 1 is a grey area. I had the car on a road trip, we had two choices: Get the car home (which is why we are only over 800 miles) OR find a dealer in Montana to have the car sit for untold # of days. The car is NOT dead on the side of the road/undriveable by any means, hence I got the car home and took it into the dealer the next day.

Point 2: Like I said, I never expected them too. However imagine my surprise after being told it WAS the timing chain/etc, however 2 days later when I asked for proof they revealed they really didn't know this to be fact. Once again, IF they were honest and said "Sir we need to tear it down and it will cost $$ to do so before we can honestly tell you what is wrong".....that would have been a different story. They are lying.

Point 3: Agreed, however more and more I am hearing dealerships using that as an excuse. Short of me having a video with a newspaper and a witness in the video while I change oil in my garage, how the hell could I PROVE I did so at the time I stated? Sad argument I know, but this is the juvenile mentality they are expressing.

Point 4: 1000% agree. In fact that is why I am on a mission to find the real cause. Once I do, let the games begin.

N_Jay

Could this be a solution?

Have you had the car less than 24 months?



I would still pursue proving the warranty applies, including a letter to your States Attorney General

jasonjeross

I just read that (and found the link on the MB page. That's for other countries besides the US.

FYI: I've talked to two diesel specialists and both are positive it's a fuel startup issue (they both suspect the fuel pump or a valve). One guy was cracking up laughing when I told him the dealer said it's the timing chain on that engine. His words, "Those engines are bullet proof, not a chance in hell the chain stretched". I'm dropping the truck off at their shop (30+ year diesel specialist) who is going to hold the car over the weekend and troubleshoot on Monday after it's been sitting. I already know the answer, but this will be interesting.

alx

i have had that chain in my hands. trust me- in the event of a direct hit by a missile the chain will be one of the few pieces that will remain intact.

i still think the fuel delivery is just dirty. but all those things can be verified with star / das via logging some real time data. reading and interpreting the logs does require some baselines and advanced knowledge of the bosch diesel engine control and fuel delivery.

N_Jay

Where are you located, and where is the nearest non-US MB service center?

You still have the oil cooler issue, right? That is $1K to $2K to fix I hear.

jasonjeross

N Jay: I like your style. I'm going to make a few calls to investigate that idea. Nothing like a small vacation and some warranty work to make things interesting.

KrustyKustom

What did you find out? What's the rattling?