JimBarnhart

Thanks Todd, my whole intention is to make sure everyone is aware, and share what I'm learning to allow others to become knowledgeable.

Your observation is exactly what had me concerned. If engine failure under warranty in gasoline engines is 1 out of 1,000 (I made this number up), a company would price the vehicle to incorporate that average into the price. If a company knew biodiesel had no impact on failure rate, I would think they'd just honor the warranty. Sure, they could make a big deal how supportive they are of their customers and make it look like they were really giving something here, even if it's the proverbial sleeves off the vest.

If the failure rate of biodiesel is known and significantly higher (lets say for this example it's 10 times higher), then they would know they have a financial problem upcoming because they haven't set aside enough money for warranty claims. The company would take the not covered position.

My phone conversation with MB wasn't a firm no, they said it wouldn't be covered if attributed to >B5 biodiesel, but they also said they would consider purchase history, service history, extended warranty purchase, etc on a case by case basis.

This leads me to believe they simply don't know. They don't have enough experience with biodiesel to predict a failure rate. I would bet they are monitoring failures in Illinois closely, and now will monitor in PA and MN as well to determine whether there is a discernible impact. If they are noticing no higher failure rate with boidiesel, they will be likely to honor the warranty on a good will gesture. But if they are getting engines failing every day they will protect profitability and deny most claims.

Sorry, long winded post, again..

Todd in PA

I am not going to cancel my order for my GL. I have to believe that the engineering expertise at Mercedes Benz will shine through here. Surely if GM, Audi/VW, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, (a division of Daimler) and others have been able to certify their engines to function with B20, then it doesn't seem to be an impossible task. I am told the market for the GL350 Bluetec is really strong overseas in case I need to sell it and I am glad the fee for the extended warranty is completely refunded if I don't use it as I am planning to get the 7/100 term. I was hoping to keep this GL for a very long time. Biodiesel is here to stay, do you think Mercedes Benz will hand over the US diesel market to BMW and Audi?
I hope not.............I sure wish their attitude was a bit better though.

BlownV8

The dealer will make you sign a form so you can't export the car.

Todd in PA

Maybe so, but for the sake of discussion, I will have signed a purchase contract implying suitability for use! If there is only B20 available here in 4 years, within my warranty period, and the engine is damaged by the use of such fuel, my GL will be too big to be a lawn ornament, I'll have to sell it. In any case I am not an exporter. It can't be incumbent upon me to know what happens to my used truck after I sell it to whoever buys it. Curiously, what does the form you speak of say?
What are the consequences if some exporter actually buys a US GL Bluetec and exports it to China? Do they arrest the exporter? Do they fine the exporter?

cadetdrivr

Actually, yes.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/big-tro...-from-the-u-s/

whitecoatgeek

I think exporting is crime not selling to an exporter.

whitecoatgeek

This is exactly what I am thinking. I am going to take the delivery. MO is B5 at this time. The day they move towards mandated B20, I am going to sell it. Not worth the hassle IMO. Overall pretty disappointed with the whole situation. Will think hard and twice before buying a diesel again

dave2001auto

http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/defaul...t.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Has exception of allowing 20% biodiesel in IL for 2014. Will MBZ honor the exception for other states and older models?

Todd in PA

That wouldn't apply to me as I am not selling a new vehicle to be resold as new in China. It's not arbitrage if I am selling my 2-3 year old diesel due to lack of appropriate fuel here in the states. Thanks for that info and link though, makes me wonder what the used market is over there.

LEOSOPHIE

Nice command of the English language for a change.

Todd in PA

Thank you!

infamily

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your investigations. This makes me very nervous, we just got our BT last month, love the car but concerned about the future exposure. Wonder if we need to form a MN diesel forum and jointly appeal to MB/ legislators. I would imaging between various MB diesel car owners their are many with potential future issues.

yk0786

After reading all of these posts, I am still inclined in getting my GL350 next month. Regarding the previous post's comments, I rather be interested in joining a diesel forum for the entire U.S. can participate and jointly appeal MB/legislators. I think many who are MB diesel owners, regardless of which MB model, would be interested in appealing to MB and getting that piece of mind that MB would cover any issues that arise from biodiesel >5% since we have no control over the fuel quality or diesel type.

Phil.mount

I also would be interested in joining such a forum. Mercedes needs to hear for us.

Phil.mount

With Mercedes selling all these Sprinters on the road, what are those operators going to do with no backing from Mercedes?

cadetdrivr

Ironically enough, it was reading the Sprinter forums that helped assuage my fears about the GL350.

The Sprinter is actually a very popular vehicle for fleets that are running 20% (or greater) biodiesel. In fact, there are actually lots of companies running 100% bio in the Sprinter which uses a detuned version of the same OM642 motor in the GL.

The largest fear (apparently) is potential fuel contamination of the oil system that can theoretically occur over time during http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter when fuel is injected into the cylinders during the exhaust stroke. "Regular" diesel will vaporize as desired but bio with a higher flashpoint can remain liquid, stick to the cylinder walls, and seep into the oil system. With enough time and heat biodiesel can react with the oil to create the dreaded sludge once the engine oil is sufficiently diluted and/or the normal additives in synthetic oil are consumed.

So the fleet operators are simply doing more frequent oil and fuel filter changes and all appears to be well. I suspect this is the same reason the official MB Bluetec brochure for IL suggests checking for oil level increases that would provide an early indication of fuel in the oil system.

Ironically, the rest of the "bio" problems appear to be related to vehicles that have run diesel for a few years and then switched to a bio blend. Since the bio is a stronger solvent is will disturb the totally normal diesel deposits that form in the fuel system and it's those released particles that then create havoc in fuel filters and injectors.

We are simply going to enjoy our 350 and do an interim oil change between the normal 10K services. If this is sufficient for fleets running 100% bio it should be totally fine for the 5/10/20% blends we will see in MN.

yk0786

Cadetdrivr,
How often between the normal 10K services would you do the interim oil changes? Would you do them at the dealership or would you consider taking it to a non-dealership? I am just concerned the cost adding up by taking it multiple times between normal services at the dealership.

cadetdrivr

Right now I'm gonna shoot for 5K and will do the service at the dealer as long as the truck is under warranty just so the oil changes are documented. I also ordered some oil analysis kits to do before each change so I'll also monitor trends as MN moves from 5% to 10% this summer. Based on what I've read on the diesel sub-forum here and the Spinter forums I'm not expecting to see any significant issues.

(Note: I am familiar with oil analysis from my day job and I'm also a bit of a nerd so for me this is all part of the fun. YMMV.)

infamily

Thank you for great post. PLease keep us informed of your oil analysis. Hopefully like you said this maynot be a big deal and an interim oil change will be good insurance

dave2001auto

Any easy assay for biodiesel in diesel #2? Water extraction at high pH? No HPLC please.

cadetdrivr

That's a great question that I would also be interested in learning.

JimBarnhart

I considered trading to a GL450, and thought I'd put my thinking here for others.

I decided to stay with my 2013 GL350 for the following reasons:

1) Illinois has been running B11 for quite awhile and we're not seeing the forums full of engine issues. Mercedes engineering looks like it's handling the biodiesel.

2) The warranty risk would require a "double fail" As an engineer I always prepare for single fails but spend less time on double fails. In this case I'd have to have engine problems (which based upon history is unlikely) as the first failure. Then I'd have to have an issue with MBUSA not covering the repairs (which is perhaps more likely given corporate profit objectives) as the second failure.

3) My discussions with a fuel expert running B20 in an MB350 and his belief there are minimal impacts, just check your oil

4) All the great help and advice from this forum's participants!!

Thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it!

yk0786

Jim - If it helps any, when I picked up my GL350 this past monday, I did not have to sign anything related to the Biodiesel. I thought I had read somewhere in this forum some individuals signing a document that MB would not be held liable for Warranty claims if the damage due to using biodiesel greater than 5%.

When I spoke to my sales rep and finance rep, they told that its not under my control the fuel quality or amount of biodiesel. As long as you maintain the vehicle properly (i.e. maintenance services at the appropriate intervals, etc), they will take care of me if any issues arises.

So maybe MB has changed its thinking on biodiesels, I dunno.

djnsmith7

This is a great discussion & glad I found it. Gave me a new perspective on the 350.

highzeke

My wife and I picked up our GL350 in March and the dealer (in SE PA) didn't ask us to sign any disclaimer on biodiesel %. I had to take the car in for a "check engine" light in may (computer fault, not fault of car, fuel, etc.) and asked the service advisor about the biodiesel issue. He said while max 5% was what is what is specified for the engine, they have not seen any issues that he was aware of. He gave the same advice to check engine oil level. My wife and I recently took a driving vacation down the East coast and back through the central part of the country putting 3K miles on in the process. In most states the pumps were marked with the biodiesel %. Where they weren't, I asked. In most cases I was told there was no biodiesel, just plain #2. I also found that at a few truck stops, the diesel fuel on the car side was 5% but on the truck side was different. Not sure why that is.

I think, as has been stated previously, that biodiesel will be an issue out in the plains states where farmers will pressure legislatures to raise biodiesel %'s. I will just stay away from states with >5%. Owners in MN, etc., I empathize with your concerns.