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2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Engine won't start after topping off gas tank
I know there are a couple other threads out there with similar complaints, but none seem to match my issue. Most seem to be sort of random, but the conditions that lead to my issue are pretty specific. I'll try to lay it all out here.
Vehicle: 2010 GLK350 RWD Base model
Normal driving conditions: My wife commutes to school, where she teaches, about 50 miles each way 5 days a week. We may drive it once or twice around town over the weekend. Never any trouble starting. Runs great. Always fill up with 93 octane gas (mostly Shell).
Conditions that lead to issue: About 3 times a year, we drive the 1047 miles from San Antonio to Des Moines, where we stay for about 5 days. While on the drive up, and probably once while in Des Moines, we fill up with 91 octane gas, because that's the highest they have north of TX for some reason. During the drive up and the stay in Des Moines, car starts fine and runs great.
The issue: On the way back to San Antonio from Des Moines, when we stop for gas the car won't start after filling up the tank. I turn the key to the start position and let go, but the starter just keeps going for about 5 seconds then stops. It would do this forever, but to get it started I hold the gas pedal to the floor while starting until it finally sputters to life (haven't had to do this on a car since the 80's). If I let off the gas, the car dies. If I let of the gas, quickly put the car in drive and move from the gas pump to a parking space, let it run for a couple minutes in park, then turn off the engine, it starts just fine after that... until the next fillup. This is our 3rd such trip in this vehicle. The first trip, this never happened. The second trip, it happened once. The third trip, just last weekend, it happened every time we filled up on the way back (3 times, I think). I filled up once right before leaving Des Moines and did not have the issue. It started right up. It seems to only occur after driving at a relatively constant speed (~75-85mpg) for about 3 hours. Once we get back in Tx and start filling up with 93 octane again, problem goes away.
Does this make any sense to anyone? Knowing a little bit about how fuel injection works, I thought it may have something to do with the system being unable to re-pressurize after removing and replacing the gas cap. But it only happens under these specific conditions, so I ruled that out. Plust, the pressure in the system is on the other side of the fuel tank, I believe, so ti shouldn't behave this way even with the gas cap removed while starting. BTW, the seal on the gas cap is good. The only thing I can think of is the lower octane gas, or maybe something to do with the long term constant rpm driving. It seems to be getting a little worse each trip, though. Could it be a combination of these things plus spark plugs needing replacing? I have a set of plugs ready to put in, as I'm at around 55k miles right now.
Thank you for any insight you can provide to help me get to the bottom of this issue before it gets any worse!
You probably have a bad injector or two that is affected by the heat, although it could be heat build up in the main processor output board. The effect of holding your foot to the floor during starting actually shuts off all gas flow to the injectors. This is programmed in to allow for starting a flooded engine. Almost all modern injected cars do this.
Probably after this prolonged drive, an injector sticks slightly open and drips fuel into the intake during your re-fueling. When you go to start, the engine is still hot so the extra fuel floods the engine. Holding the pedal down will allow the engine to clear and it starts. Putting the car in gear and moving, requires the extra fuel and will clear the engine quicker.
The Texas blend may evaporate quicker or have other properties that make this less noticeable. The length of trip probably heat soaks the injectors enough to cause the problem, but it is only a problem for starting meaning one or more injectors are not closing.
Injectors do wear out.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by bop11
You probably have a bad injector or two that is affected by the heat, although it could be heat build up in the main processor output board. The effect of holding your foot to the floor during starting actually shuts off all gas flow to the injectors. This is programmed in to allow for starting a flooded engine. Almost all modern injected cars do this.
Probably after this prolonged drive, an injector sticks slightly open and drips fuel into the intake during your re-fueling. When you go to start, the engine is still hot so the extra fuel floods the engine. Holding the pedal down will allow the engine to clear and it starts. Putting the car in gear and moving, requires the extra fuel and will clear the engine quicker.
The Texas blend may evaporate quicker or have other properties that make this less noticeable. The length of trip probably heat soaks the injectors enough to cause the problem, but it is only a problem for starting meaning one or more injectors are not closing.
Injectors do wear out.
Oh man, you're my hero! That makes perfect sense! I had no idea about the gas pedal shutting off the fuel supply like that. Is this something that could be pinned down by MB running diagnostics? I was planning on taking it to the dealer to have them check it out anyway. Replacing injectors sounds like a task for a pro, eh? I've replaced timing belts, pcv parts, etc, but never any fuel-related parts (other than spark plugs).
Injectors for early GLKS are just push-ons as they inject into the manifold. Direct injection injectors need to work against compression, so they are not so easy to change.
I doubt that the dealer would be able to find a leaky injector by just plugging into the computer.
Fuel injectors for a 2010 go from $17 for rebuilds to $71 fro new at RockAuto. Other places may be cheaper. They come with 0-rings. If you do it yourself, you need to relieve the fuel pressure in the rail, then they just pull off the rail and pull out of the intake. Dip the new injector into a little gasoline to lubricate the o-rings and install by pushing in.
A direct injection injector is about $300.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by bop11
Injectors for early GLKS are just push-ons as they inject into the manifold. Direct injection injectors need to work against compression, so they are not so easy to change.
I doubt that the dealer would be able to find a leaky injector by just plugging into the computer.
Fuel injectors for a 2010 go from $17 for rebuilds to $71 fro new at RockAuto. Other places may be cheaper. They come with 0-rings. If you do it yourself, you need to relieve the fuel pressure in the rail, then they just pull off the rail and pull out of the intake. Dip the new injector into a little gasoline to lubricate the o-rings and install by pushing in.
A direct injection injector is about $300.
Yep, I watched various youtube videos, as well as some very detailed photographed procedures from forums, and it looks like a time-consuming process, but not really difficult. Just pop our the fuel rail assembly, as you stated! The place I usually get my MB parts has the injectors for $65 ea. So, you're saying my best bet is to replace all of them? I guess that's not prohibitively expensive. Cheaper than getting the 40k mile transmission service, anyway.
Thanks again for your helpful information! I'll tackle this, along with changing the plugs, before our next trip up north in a couple of months.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
I know this wouldn't do anything for a worn/malfunctioning injector, but due to the couple thousand miles running on the lower octane fuel, would it hurt to run a can of Berryman's B-12 through them to clean things up a bit? Or is that all hype?
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
bop11, something just occurred to me last night while I was getting gas... your initial explanation doesn't seem to account for the fact that this issue only occurs when the gas cap is removed and replaced. If we had to stop to let the dog out, grab a bite to eat, etc, without getting gas, the car started normally. Does the gas cap part of the equation change anything in your diagnosis?
Probably not. Short stops do not let the gas evaporate. A long stop would allow the fuel to evaporate out of the intake manifold. I would not think that removing the cap would do anything as the tank is not pressurized but vented through the carbon canister.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by bop11
Probably not. Short stops do not let the gas evaporate. A long stop would allow the fuel to evaporate out of the intake manifold. I would not think that removing the cap would do anything as the tank is not pressurized but vented through the carbon canister.
Ah, yes... you did mention evaporation earlier. That makes sense.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
I also found this in my research... several other folks experienced the exact same symptoms as a result of the purge valve on the emission canister getting stuck open and allowing gas from the tank to flood the engine when refueling. Does that sound like a good place to start? I can replace that one part for $65-ish bucks. If it fixes it, sweet! Otherwise, it's $400-ish to replace all of the fuel injectors.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by SeaMonkeyGLK350
I also found this in my research... several other folks experienced the exact same symptoms as a result of the purge valve on the emission canister getting stuck open and allowing gas from the tank to flood the engine when refueling. Does that sound like a good place to start? I can replace that one part for $65-ish bucks. If it fixes it, sweet! Otherwise, it's $400-ish to replace all of the fuel injectors.
The reason I'm leaning this way is because the purge valve malfunctioning when the gas cap is removed makes more sense in my mind that a malfunctioning injector. If an injector was bad, wouldn't the engine run rough all the time? I dunno... I'm certainly no expert, that's why I rely on this forum. I'm replacing the purge valve this weekend. If that doesn't work, then I'll look at the injectors next. I just really, really, really don't want to shell out another $400+ right after spending ~$650 to get the transmission serviced.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Oh hell... I completely forgot that even though the CEL doesn't come on, there could be codes stored... and there was. P2422 - Powertrain - Evaporative emission system vent valve stuck closed. Boom! (although the diagnosis I read a few days ago mentioned this could be cause by it staying OPEN ??) So, it looks like I got the correct part. Now, I'm a little unclear on how to utilize those little hose clamps that are connecting the hoses to this device. I thought maybe pushing those little humped bits together with a needle nose pliers, but without a replacement on hand in case something goes awry, I'm not touching these things. I have googled without any success.
Oh, and it's definitely worse. My wife made the ~50min drive home tonight, it sat in the garage for 2 hours, I went to fill up the tank, no start w/o holding down the gas pedal. :-(
Any insight you guys could provide on the little clips would be most appreciated!
How do I operate the 'clips' that are indicated in red?
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Ah, crap... the part I bought (and in the photo) is the PURGE valve. I didn't see any mention of a VENT valve in the parts tree. Are they one and the same? I'll do a little more research. I hope they are, or I wasted 70 bucks...
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Oh boy... I see a lot of posts about the P2422 code now. And they all involve the charcoal canister and valve. But... none of them mention the vehicle not starting. So, I'm hoping this code is just a false code thrown due to the purge valve sticking. I'm sure I'm completely wrong and I bought the wrong part, but a man can hope, yeah?
Those clamps look like they are one time use and require a special crimping tool. I would use needle nose and a flat screw driver to loosen it up enough to pull the hoses off and then replace the clamps with the screw type.
What you show is the purge valve and it makes more sense that this would have the effect you describe. The clamps are 1 time only. You need the screw type unless you have some new ones and the proper tool.
hope that replacement works.
The vent valve looks to be part of the canister. This valve is normally open. It closes to hold vacuum in the system for leak checks. If it is stuck closed, then the charcoal canister does not vent and vapor from the canister would be drawn into the engine. This is determined by the control system opening the purge valve,pulling a vacuum on the canister with the vent closed, closing the purge valve, then checking that the system holds vacuum and then opening the vent. If the vacuum goes down there is a system leak. If the vacuum does not go down when the vent is opened, it assumes the vent is stuck closed. I don't know why the vent would stick closed after long trips but not after short ones. If the vent is really stuck closed, You would probably here air rush into the tank when you remove the cap.
If an injector doesn't seal but drips, it will only effect the starting until it gets bad enough and then the idle starts going rich and rough.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by bop11
What you show is the purge valve and it makes more sense that this would have the effect you describe. The clamps are 1 time only. You need the screw type unless you have some new ones and the proper tool.
hope that replacement works.
The vent valve looks to be part of the canister. This valve is normally open. It closes to hold vacuum in the system for leak checks. If it is stuck closed, then the charcoal canister does not vent and vapor from the canister would be drawn into the engine. This is determined by the control system opening the purge valve,pulling a vacuum on the canister with the vent closed, closing the purge valve, then checking that the system holds vacuum and then opening the vent. If the vacuum goes down there is a system leak. If the vacuum does not go down when the vent is opened, it assumes the vent is stuck closed. I don't know why the vent would stick closed after long trips but not after short ones. If the vent is really stuck closed, You would probably here air rush into the tank when you remove the cap.
If an injector doesn't seal but drips, it will only effect the starting until it gets bad enough and then the idle starts going rich and rough.
Thanks for your reply! Yeah, that code for the vent valve threw me off. I guess since I already have the purge valve in-hand, I'll swap that out (with some screw type clamps) and see if that does anything. If not, I'll try chasing some of this other stuff down.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Well, I'm knocking on wood here, but swapping out the purge valve seems to have done the job! It was getting so bad that every time we took the gas cap off after my wife got home from work (about an hour highway drive) it would not start up without pushing the gas pedal all the way to the floor. Now that I've replaced the purge valve, we haven't had the starting issue reappear. I guess we really won't know for sure until our next road trip to Iowa.
Oh, and those clips I asked about before are reusable... some special Mercedes Clic-R collar thingies -- http://tinyurl.com/zubjkjx
I just bought the tool for 20 bucks, because I like to keep everything as stock as I can. These are much easier to deal with than the hose clamps on the Volvo. Those are a real pain in the ***.
Last edited by SeaMonkeyGLK350; 02-15-2016 at 01:26 AM.
2010 Mercedes GLK 350, 2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude 3.2 V6
Originally Posted by richvegas
i know this is a little old but this fix the problem for good??
having same issue now
Yes sir! It's been nearly a year and we haven't had the problem once. *knocking on wood* However, full disclosure... we haven't taken it on any long road trips since replacing this part. I bought a 2014 Cherokee and we've been using that for long hauls instead. But it seems logical that this part was what was causing the issue. I say go for it!
You probably have a bad injector or two that is affected by the heat, although it could be heat build up in the main processor output board. The effect of holding your foot to the floor during starting actually shuts off all gas flow to the injectors. This is programmed in to allow for starting a flooded engine. Almost all modern injected cars do this.
Probably after this prolonged drive, an injector sticks slightly open and drips fuel into the intake during your re-fueling. When you go to start, the engine is still hot so the extra fuel floods the engine. Holding the pedal down will allow the engine to clear and it starts. Putting the car in gear and moving, requires the extra fuel and will clear the engine quicker.
The Texas blend may evaporate quicker or have other properties that make this less noticeable. The length of trip probably heat soaks the injectors enough to cause the problem, but it is only a problem for starting meaning one or more injectors are not closing.
Injectors do wear out.
Thank you for taking the time to post this. It is still relevant. Had I not found this thread, I would have called AAA.
01-05-2016, 10:40 AM
I can't believe I forgot to put that in here somewhere.
