grantwoodtx

"Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Mark Twain

But John Wayne has the one for just for you.. “Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.”

MB-BOB

Wow, I guess we're really having a bad day. Leaving my TX residence and moderator status out of the mix (I insist), let's review your stupid remarks about a need for more street courses in urban settings, etc.

The Las Vegas GP (1981-82) was held on the parking lot at Caesar's Palace, and is regarded by most as the absolutely worst GP venue, ever. The circuit was more suitable to go carts, and -- more important -- the venue lost money hand over fist because the gamblers in Vegas couldn't be coaxed out of the casinos long enough to pay and watch, so it was a financial disaster. Nothing has changed in Vegas, I assure you, except that the F1 marketers have become smarter and more sophisticated in evaluating the "marketing" of F1. What seems "logical" to you is not a slam-dunk in reality.

The Dallas GP (1984) was a complete disaster, as the street course around the Cotton Bowl was purely mickey mouse (slower than Monaco in fact), and the track was sucked-up by the ground effects cars into a pile of asphalt trash within 6 laps of the start in the suffering Sept heat. Also a financial disaster. How's that assessment from a biased "Texas Boy" who lives in a Dallas suburb?

The general problem with street circuits is that they become landlocked over time. The course is defined by the width of the streets available. The run-off areas cannot be expanded to accommodate the yearly increases in speed that the cars accrue. Hence, this is the reason why circuits that were safe 10-years before are declared no longer safe by the FIA by the time the venue's contract expires. These facts (among others) contributed to the demise of both Long Beach and Detroit, as F1 venues. The FIA has generally avoided street circuits since, save for the Marina Bay Circuit in Singapore. So much for your idea of street circuits in metropolitan areas.

Laguna Seca is a wonderful course. I've driven it and it is great. But at 2.2 miles in length it does not meet the minimum length requirements for F1 (Monaco is granted a perennial exemption only out of tradition). Laguna Seca has in the past been reviewed as a potential F1 venue, only to be dismissed as unsafe to the standards of F1 on several levels, not to mention inadequate pit size and paddock space for the sponsors who market their wares to the international crowd. Same with Road America.

Miller Motorsports Park? Really? Let's not even talk about the track. You complain that there is nothing to do in Austin, yet you suggest that the world fly to Salt Lake City, Utah? I've been to a couple of conventions there. Due to local (Mormon) laws, you can't even assemble a mixed drink without buying booze at one store, soda at another, ice at a third and a glass to pour it in at a fourth (by law). Nightlife abounds in Salt Lake City for sure... "Fail" as you say.

In fact, all of the existing tracks in the US have been examined (time and again) as potential F1 venues. All, save INDY, have failed to pass muster. I consider the attitude a bit snooty, myself. But no one asked for my opinion, and we're sure as hell certain they are not going to ask your opinion.

Your logic would suggest that a track located in the middle of nowhere is doomed to failure. If this is so, then the most successful venue in USGP history would not have been run for 20 years... situated some 5-hours driving time and 254 miles from New York City, at Watkins Glen.

So you're not going to Austin in 2012. We get that. I may (or may not) be able to go, either. Like yourself, I have voiced several reservations about the Austin venue three months ago: https://mbworld.org/forums/4106757-post5.html.

However, Austin has a 10-year contract (2012-2021). So we have no choice but to settle down and see how it pans out. I never thought the Hungaroring (also in the middle of nowhere, behind the Iron Curtain, populated by millions of peasants with no money) would have lasted 25 years, either.

I have video recorded every Formula One race since 1982, and have been a devoted follower and fan for much longer than that. If you really want to hang with me on this subject, you'll need to do some homework. Lots of homework.

jrcart

You are missing my point and I don't need to do any homework, I am well aware of the history of F1 in the united states. As you are well aware F1 is not all that popular in the US, so unpopular in fact that 2 or 3 years into the Indianapolis USGP run F1 had to offer to pay the networks to air the race live...sure you and I love the sport, lots of enthusiests love it but it is not a main stream sport here in the US. I think its great we are getting a race on the schedule and I want it to be a success but I honestly think it going to be a flop because of the location. You are quick to knock NASCAR but they have figured out a way to become the 2nd largest spectator sport in North America and although most oval racing can get boring the racing is close and usually exciting. F1 is a little more exciting this year than in past years but up until recently is was 2 or 3 drivers that could contend and not much passing. All I'm saying is that this event could have been put in a better location that would have been more marketable, I guess we will see what happens, as for the 10 year contract, I doubt the event will draw enough fans or revenue to sustain the race for 10 years, let's hope I'm wrong.

MB-BOB

I understand your point. Mine is that the USGP in the US has never been a popular sport, and never will be, regardless of venue. Americans simply have too many other distractions vying for their leisure time, compared with some european countries where F1 and soccer are pretty much all that is worth seeing. This is so much the case, that governments underwrite the promotional costs of several european races to keep them alive, while here in the US, F1 has to stand on its own financial merits.

Last week's Belgian GP at Spa drew barely 52,000 spectators, 13,000 short of expectations, prompting the Belgian government to now re-evaluate its subsidy in coming years. It would be a shame to lose Spa, but it looks like a possibility, again. http://en.espnf1.com/belgium/motorsp...ory/27327.html

In 2000, the Indy GP netted some 200,000 spectators, but dwindled to just 100,000 in its final years... either one would be a promoter's dream in Europe. Yet, the market for racing is so much larger in the US, since NASCAR regularly packs 150,000+ into its tracks week after week with twice the number of annual events compared with F1 (or any other motorsport for that matter)..

The real factor is DRIVERS, IMO. American drivers race in NASCAR. They don't race in F1, and even Indycar has fallen in stature below F1, now that American driver participation has dwindled to Tony Kanaan and an 3rd generation Andretti (Marco) -- the Danica Patrick show is not even helping. I'm watching the Kentucky 300 IRL race as I write this, and the stands appear to be about 10% full. IMO, this is the real reason why F1 is not a mainstream racing series in the US. Since there is little prospect for a single American (let alone the several that would be required) to make the commitment to F1, I don't see a turnaround... ever. Hence, the choice of venue is not a factor either... not ever.

Instead, any F1 race in America will play the role of a "loss-leader" for car manufacturers and the myriad of global sponsors in the series who feel a marketing need to be visible in the US, at a financial loss, if necessary. Generating a profit with a paying audience at the gate is not, and cannot be a primary objective in the US. If that means that we will see USGPs come and go, then that will be our lot.

That said, several F1 corporate sponsors in Texas (DELL and its 80,000 employees right there in Round Rock, HP and AT&T in Dallas) could be convinced to help swell the crowds with various promotional programs to incite employees to drive to Austin for the weekend.

We'll see.

BTW, I live 14 miles from Texas Motor Speedway, attend at least one of the NASCAR races each year, and have even worked in the press office for one of the Fall races. Apparently I am one of the few who can appreciate both NASCAR and F1.

jrcart

MR BOB, I will agree with you on the driver talent, all one needs to do is watch a NASCAR event when they race on a road course LOL, there are about 5 NASCAR drivers that could make it in F1

MB-BOB

And even fewer F1 drivers who could make it in NASCAR. Just ask J.P. Montoya...

Takuma Sato just finished dead last in tonight's IRL race.

jrcart

If it was not for bad luck Montoya would have no luck at all this season, I think he's lead the 3rd or 4th most laps this season but no oval wins even though he's run away with a couple races this year only to lose due to mechanical or pit strategy. Ganassi engines are making more HP than anyone this season, not sure why JPM has not had more wins, his team mate has one the two biggest races of the season. Montoya is probably the best driver out there, the only problem is he's not the smartest driver out there. I enjoy seeing all there open wheel guys and sports car guys giving NASCAR a shot, I enjoy seeing the talent duke it ut on the same tracks. Believe it or not some of my favorite races were IROC races and the europeon ROC, seeing the best drivers from every form of racing imaginable racing in equal equipment, where else could you see Michael Schumacher, Peter Solberg, Valentino Rossi and Jeff Gordon race on the same track on the same day? Very entertaining indeed.

i_am_amused

that is an anti-litter slogan (a very successful one), but less informed texans have adapted it to a "we'll beat you up if you're mean to us" slogan

MB-BOB

Well, we've certainly gotten severaly sidetracked with the whys and why nots of Austin, and I guess that was not grantwoodtx's intent. So let's talk about the track layout, itself.

In general I think this will be an interesting circuit. Critiques of Tilke's designs mostly center on the lack of elevation change. But I feel there will be ample amounts of elevation change here, some of it problematic to car design and setup.

For instance, there appears to be two quick left hand bends with an abrupt hill crest between them (Turns 9-10). This looks like a quick up and down section, taken under acceleration after turn 8, with the second left (#10) coming immediately after the crest. You need to compare the 3D image below with the 2D picture in the first post to really see this in detail. If this is so, it should prove a challenge for both car design, and race setup. Imagine the car going light at the crest of the hill, with high demands for grip to handle the left bend immediately on the other side?

There seems to be another abrupt change in height halfway between turns 11 and 12. If the cars upshift into top gear at this point when the car is light, that could pose grip issues as well. We will have to see how this pans out.

Personally, I like circuit designs that pay homage to some of the great corners at other tracks, and I think the idea of Turns 3 through 6 saluting the legendary high-speed Maggotts/Becketts complex at Silverstone is thrilling. The entry and exit of this complex also harkens of Silverstone. So it will be interesting to see if the drivers like it too.

I'm not sure I agree that one should give a nod to the stadium section at Hockenheim, but Turns 12 through 15 apparently are designed to do so, albeit in reverse mirror image. Ho-hum for me...

Turns 16 through 18 are said to mirror the infamous, multi-apex Turn 8 lefthanders at Istanbul Park, except in reverse (righthand in Austin). The drivers like the challenge at Istanbul, so they might also like this section in Austin. It gets interesting after this complex, too. For me, the downhill section, from 18 through 19 and beyond reminds me of the similar section (Turns 9-11) at Laguna Seca. And from the bottom of the hill before turn 20 through the start/finish line comprise the speedy uphill left that reminds one of the last turn at Brazil.

What is currently on paper may not be what turns up on the topography in Austin, of course. But I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

F1Bobby

The length of the circut is good and the elevation changes are also a plus but T1 simply IMHO bites! The run down the hill between T11 and T12 is ok but I bet we'll have the drivers not happy about the car going light while up on the cams. Now for us that are not driving the track... The topography will dictate where to sit. I surely don't want to sit in a flat land or gully that limits view. As always the start/finish will be the place to sit so you can see all the cars just before they crash in T1 on lap 1.

jrcart

What is the elevation change from between start/finish and turn 1, it does look a little hairy. You took the wordrds out of my mouth about the run down to t12, F1 better have a new aero package in the plans because I. Can't see them not getting real "light" over that "jump", especially in a pack of cars, I would not want to be the 2nd car in a 3 or more car slip stream situation with no air on the wings. Turn one is going to be interesting. Is front straight longer or shorter than back straight, its hard to tell from the diagram? Back straight appears that it will be the fastest portion, if they can stay in it over the "jump".

SeaCoupe

Logistically, I'd day the the Elroy area looks to be one of the best options. You can take 35 or the 10, then work the farm roads to get in.

I'm looking forward to this. I have my criticsms to the track, but men far smarter than me worked this up, and I'll now be content to figure out where I'll watch the race from.

Ed

Nola

I've been to the USGP a few times. And to the Montreal GP... and Hockenheim... and Monza... and Spa... and Singapore. The Speedway is great, but believe me, Indy (the city) doesn't get F1. If F1 is in town, and your main event downtown is a bunch of 50's Mustangs and a Shriner parade...you just might be a redneck.

F1Bobby

I too have been to a number of U.S. GPs to include other venues at Monaco and Australia. The Long Beach F1 race in the 70s and 80s was good but IMHO the circut was marginal. The upside was F1 was well received in Long Beach. The races in Phoenix (with the exception of Alesi shocking Senna for a few laps) was just not that good. The first year Phoenix was like 118 degrees on race day...
Indy is Indy. Sensational facility but not an F1 venue. This track in Austin is going to be another transient facility for F1 in the U.S.
Am I going to go? The answer is absolutely! Do I think there could be a better venue someplace else more adapt to F1 in the U.S.? That too can be answered Absolutely! Now on with the show... Hopefully!!!!

jrcart

Hey Mr Bob and all the other "experts"...I hate to say it, but I told you so. Please see the new thread I started in this section.

jrcart

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...ZXLAWnvVVDzYtA


In less than 24 hours from now the proposed Austin, TX F1 event will be history




....That's all folks


....grantwoodtx, MR-BOB....anyone?....anyone?

Look on the brightside, Austin, TX could hold one hell of a great Trophy Truck off-road race on that partially completed road course

jrcart

Words you should live by...you were saying? Who looks a fool now? Were you calling me stupid? looks like I was right all along and somebody else is looking rather stupid right about now.....just sayin