Germancar1

Oh no, not this again. Wrong about the S-Class being outsold last time, so now we've come up with a new graphic.

Again, what does the Tesla outselling the S-Class prove? It clearly isn't a better car, only a cooler one.

M

JapanDave

Forgive my dullness ,but is the Tesla S even a competitor for the S-class? The size of the car for starters is different. The rear leg room is a non starter 43" vs 35". Although I like the sound of the Tesla and I an interested in taking one for a test drive for a car for my wife, I am not sure it would be able to replace the S550.

Helmar

IMO EV's won't be ready for prime time until:

1. They're equipped with battery packs that can be quickly swapped out for a fresh set.

2. Gas stations around the country become equipped with swap stations that can swap battery packs in 5 minutes or so, and then THEY spend the time recharging the swapped out packs.....

HBH

WEBSRFR

Actually I stand by my previous post from a while back as when I claimed the Model S was outselling the S class that was in fact true at that time but it was before the W222 came out. Some made the reasonable argument that the S class sales were down back then since the W222 was about to come out. Sure enough when the newly redesigned W222 came out in 2014, the S Class outsold the Model S. A year later, based on 2015 Q1 sales the Model S is again outselling the S class based on the stats I just presented and I attributed the figures to my source. You are welcome to present your own facts and sources if you disagree.

It simply means people looking to buy a premium 5 passenger sedan and with about $100K to spend decided a Tesla Model S is a better vehicle for them than an S class or anything else available to buy.

I understand your view that the Model S is a cooler car but for some it is a better car overall based on the driving characteristics of the Model S. Of course this is all subjective and personal opinion but not the fact that in 2015 The Model S outsold the S class in the ~ $100K premium 5 passenger sedan market.

WEBSRFR

I hardly ever use my rear seat but our Tesla has plenty of rear leg room for any guest we have there. And unlike gasoline cars with a transmission tunnel the middle passenger in the rear seat does not have to awkwardly sit on a hump because the Model S has a flat floor.

The Model S is actually wider than an S class, weights about the same, and is slightly shorter because in the US we only get the long wheelbase S Class. Since we hardly ever use the rear seats this is not an issue for us but seriously if you tests drive a Model S, sit on the back seat and it is plenty spacious enough. It also offers a lot more storage space for long trips as you have a huge trunk and a "frunk" up front.

WEBSRFR

As a Tesla owner I have to disagree with you. Tesla did roll out battery swap stations in California but hardly anyone used them. The technology is there but there is very little interest in it.

It turns out most people are perfectly fine with stopping for a 30 minute rest stop after about 4 hours of driving. In that time you can recharge your car and be on your way after a rest stop. That's what we do and Tesla found out that's how the majority of Tesla owners drive their cars.

We have taken our Model S on some long distance road trips and we've yet to have any range issues getting anywhere we need to go on the North East. They just also launched a Destination Charger program at high end hotels and B&Bs around the country so when you reach your destination you start the next day with a full charge.

Within the next year I bet we will have a 300-350 mile range battery announcement once the Giga Factory comes online and the extra range will make this an even more moot issue.

Prime time for EVs is here and it is now 2016/2017 is going to me a major inflection point in the adoption of EVs when the lower priced 250 mile range EVs are introduced. I read an article this morning that within the next 10 years BMW plans to make all their vehicles electric.

WEBSRFR

I completely agree with you and you make a great point. The Model S is outselling the S Class in the US but NOT worldwide.

I think this is a distinction attributable to the fact that Tesla is still a small car manufacturer and spends zero on advertising and when they expand to a new country they own the actual dealerships and service stations so their growth is very deliberate. You also bring a great point about the Superchargers as they have to build them out before introducing the car in a new country, a lesson they are learning a bit painfully in China.

The point to note here is that every year Model S sales have been going up 50% and they have barely scratched the surface of the premium car market. It's a compelling offering for those who take the time to experience and get to know it and it is likely what happened in the US will be replicated in other countries unless Mercedes comes out with a competing EV product.

As for the P85D competing with only the S63 that's a bit of a strange decision for us because we may have just bought an S550 and not even opted for an S63 because the 4.6s 0-60 would have been quite sufficient. We decided to go with a P85D because it offered the level of performance for day to day driving on regular streets that you would normally only get with a supercar costing hundreds of thousands.

The P85D performance is possible because it is electric and making it go faster is a lot easier than with a gasoline car with all the complicated mechanical linkages that are needed to make it work. I almost feel it is an unreasonable advantage for Tesla as they were able to increase the performance of the Model S from 4.2 to 3.1 seconds in just about 2 years and with the many years of Mercedes engineering the best they could do for the S63 is 3.9s. Now 3.9 seconds is fast by any stretch of the imagination and I'm not dissing it in any way but to make the car go faster all Tesla had to do was add a melon shaped eclectic motor and inverter to the front axel. If Mercedes wanted to improve on the 3.9s of the S63 it is a far more daunting challenge requiring a new engine, transmission, emission system, and many other subsystems adding weight, complexity and engineering. Therein you find the advantage of EVs.

UrBusted

I said E63S as its 585hp and has a 0-60 time of 3.3. If the S63 4matic was 700HP, I imagine it would be quite a bit closer to 60mph, and take off after ~80mph. Until the P85D can match a fully optioned A8/7/S in luxury, I wouldn't exactly call it a direct competitor to them, even though they would be cross shopped as one is a luxury sedan, the other is a performance sedan.

WEBSRFR

Oh I thought you meant the S63. We had absolutely zero interest in looking at an E class. We already have one, albeit not an AMG Can't stand the interior of the present generation E Class. Both me and my girlfriend consider the interior of the current generation E class with all the weird angles and vertical lines to be way too inelegant for our taste.

The E63S might come close to the acceleration of the P85D (3.5s btw based on Mercedes specs vs. 3.1s for the Tesla) but I'd definitely prefer to have that acceleration without engine sounds, exhaust notes, and gear shifts. The thing with the Tesla is after you get used to wafting to warp speed with no engine noise or other drama, engine and exhaust sounds quickly begin sounding obnoxious and completely unnecessary.

If you are in traffic and nail the E63S you are going to make a bunch of noise and startle/irritate a lot of people around you whether you realize it or not. With the Tesla hardly anyone notices you as you stealthily launch it and add distance and I prefer that. If you launch an E63S at night everyone within a block would know but with a Tesla it's just for your enjoyment and no one else need to know and I prefer it that way.

I agree the Model S interior could be more luxurious. Though the Model S might not offer you a compelling choice in its current form, based on sales for many potential buyers in this price segment, the Tesla driving experience and technology precedes in priority some of the interior niceties of the S class or an A8. My biggest interior gripe with the Tesla used to be their seats and they fixed that with the Next Generation seats in the P85D.

I am sure they will improve the interior of the Model S further once they get the Model X out the door. They already have a "Premium Package" you can add to the Model S and I bet they will design additional luxury amenities into that package.

Wolfman

I think it's completely overstated that tesla fixed the seats. They upgraded from terrible prisonbench-quality seats to Recaro seats (I think still optional) which are nowhere close to a luxury car seat. Think sport bucket seat with no options...

Tesla will have to rethink those if they want to play in the luxury segment.

WEBSRFR

Um... That's odd that you would disparage the Recaro seats so easily. Have you sat on them and driven for longer than half an hour? They are very comfortable and offer great support. I especially like the side bolsters. Big improvement over the previous generation seats of the Model S.

Granted the S550 seats are a bit more luxurious with the massage and ventilation options but I haze no issues with the Tesla Next Generation Seats and I had serious issues with their original seats.

Recaro makes the seats for most Aston Martin vehicles:

https://www.recaro-automotive.com/us...on-martin.html

They also makes the seats for Audi's R/RS series performance cars:

https://www.recaro-automotive.com/us...view/audi.html

And let's not forget Recaro also makes the seats for a variety of Mercedes AMG cars:

https://www.recaro-automotive.com/us...edes-benz.html

We just got back from a trip from DC to Asheville, North carolina (about 8 hours of driving each way) and we are quite pleased with how the Tesla Next Generation seats performed. We stopped twice along the way and arrived home feeling not at all tired. TACC enabled cruise control really helped and this drive should be even easier in the fall when Autopilot takes over steering after the next software update.

Having said that I would not say no to it if I could have just installed the Mercedes S class seats on our Tesla, but the Recaro seat option they offer is absolutely fine and the Recaro seats may actually offer better support for spirited driving.

Wolfman

Did you read what I wrote? Let's do it again...
"Recaro seats which are nowhere close to a luxury car seat. Think sport bucket seat"

I know Recaro seats and like them well. It's just not a luxury car seat, wether Aston Martin or Audi RS models uses them. No disparagement here.

Besides, Recaro makes seats at a lot of price points, as in Ford Mustang, Camaro and Ford Focus.

In a luxury car, I have specific demands on the seat and those would be very different in a performance car. The Recaro's simply didn't have it.

K-A

I hope you don't nor wouldn't consider buying a GM with that line of thought. Everyone has their way of seeing things. The reason why EV's get such a tax credit is because those on the side of them believe that you'll be leaving something much tangibly worse for your kids and grandkids with a growing population of higher pollutant vehicles.

To the comments above about the Tesla not matching the S in a cloud-like heart-rate lowering waft, it's because the Tesla isn't supposed to. The Model S is more about generating heart rate. They're different cars yet close enough to where many will cross shop. Let's face it, the S is a passengers car, yet most I see aren't using the focal point of the car, which are the backseats. The Model S is more of a drivers car. The designs also tell this story. The S a more upright, mature looking car. The Model S sleeker and sportier. I think the new 7 Series will be closer to having buyer crossover with the Model S.

And again, like it or not, but Tesla has the exclusivity factor as of right now, which is something M-B has washed away, especially so with the close likeness of designs of growing downmarket segments. As once more succinct car manufacturers go full on mass market, and more boutique brands or all new brands start to pick up slack by becoming accessible yet still succinct, you have a lot of "status seeking" buyers crossing over to the lower volume manufacturers. Basically a shift in popular brand demographics.

UrBusted

The P85D costs £93,900 in the UK. If I was looking for attention, I'd get I'd rather pay £5,000 more and get a C63 Black, a facelifted Gallardo or a F430.

WEBSRFR

Not sure I follow the logic in paying more to get a slower car that's all cramped on the inside?

And an F430 has the distinction of being a lot more expensive and slower and good luck using that as a daily driver. The Gallardo is almost $200K++. These two cars compete more with the Tesla Roadster than a 5,000lb 4 door sedan that seats 5 adults. The only other car we cross shopped the Model S with is the S class.

It's strange you mentioned seeking attention. We find all the noise, smoke, hard gear shifts and the drama of high performance ICE cars to be obnoxious and of poor taste. For street driving, our P85D is faster or just as fast as cars costing several times our car but with zero drama and zero "ooh look at me while I generate a bunch of smoke and noise to be an attention *****" nonsense

A P85D is basically the opposite of seeking attention. It's just insanely fast while being ridiculously versatile. This is why it appeals to more than just a fringe segment of extreme performance car buyers. The Model S is the best selling car around $100K because of its practicality and wide appeal.

UrBusted

The comment above my comment was talking at the end about status and attraction seeking. Not sure how the Gallardo is $200k? In the UK you can get a facelifted Gallardo for under £100,000. Even in America, you can get 1000hp+ TT Gallardos for lees than $200,000 that would probably demolish the Model S.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lamborghini-Gallardo-2dr-Coupe-/181791353317?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2a539be9e5&item=181791353317http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lamborghini-Gallardo-Spyder-/121694899960?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c5594cef8&item=121694899960http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lamborghini-Gallardo-SE-Heffner-Twin-Turbo-/261934315803?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3cfc80791b&item=261934315803If I wanted an extra fast daily driver, the GTR would be my choice with around 800-900hp where the limit on the transmission is. FYI, my daily driver carries a maximum of 3 people at time. May be different for you. If I wanted the fastest car for the same price as the P85D, I would have done the following :
Nissan GTR 2009, could be higher years if you had more money, but to match the P85D I've selected this year : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2009-NISSA...item3f4e03266f
AMS Alpha 12, allowing the car to have 1500hp, doing 8.97 @ 169.5mph : http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/170672-am...itted-ecc.html
It is quite impractical, but its faster than the P85D and can seat 4. Not sure about the 0-60 argument with people saying "accelerating to the speed limit" as its illegal, comes under the law of aggressive driving, reckless driving, or voluntary endangerment depending on your location.
People can daily driver F430s, especially since the belts were replaced with chains, the only modification needed is the cup holder which people have done, and if you are an audiophile, a custom speaker setup. This depends on where you live, here in London it would be alright as a lot of people won't give it a second glance, but not sure about your location. Last thing. For around $100,000 the S Class is, and has been the best selling vehicle. From September 2013 to October 2014 there had been 100,000 S Class' sold. From June 2012 to June 18th 2015, the Tesla had sold 88,733, and August is looking at around 95259.

WEBSRFR

Not sure how fair it is to compare a new car to a used car. Of course you can buy an exotic used car but the real cost in maintaining one of those used cars is the cost and hassle of maintenance and repairs.

You can launch a P85D all day and night long and the wear and tear on the electric motor is minimal. Most ultra high performance exotic cars with launch control will suffer quite a bit of internal wear and tear after many launches. There is a reason why many high performance cars have a warranty exclusion if they are driven hard. No such exclusion with Tesla.

Pretty much all the cars you mentioned don't make much sense as a daily Driver.

The reason the Model S is the best selling 4-door sedan in the ~$100k price point is that it is an exceptionally practical car in addition to being insanely fast. With the Tesla, you can leave a long line of exotic cars costing much more in the dust on your way home with a car full of groceries. You can take it on a 10 hour road trip, like we did recently and get to your destination feeling relaxed.

UrBusted

Where did you get the assumption that it is hard to maintain a used Ferrari/Lamborghini? In the Lamborghini and GTRs case, you've got warranty, and many people have commented on how reliable they are. Watch "That Racing Channel" on YouTube and see how many of these tuned GTRs and Gallardos there are. There is still warranty on it, no matter how many times it is launched. I've just listed two cars that can beat the P85D. If you want a brand new car, you can get a GTR, do the Alpha 9 kit which in total would cost you £80,000. You then have an extra £14,000 to spend on fuel. Yes, the GTR won't be as practical on long journeys, but people do use them as daily drivers, and it is as fast as the P85D for equal or less than the cost of one. Also, I've already proven that the S Class is the best selling 4 doors sedan for $100k.

WEBSRFR

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...h-maintenance/

I rest my case.

In the United States the Model S is the best selling sedan around $100K. We have established that with facts already. I also pointed out that Tesla is still a small company but they are growing rapidly. In just 2.5 years they have built over 500 supercharger locations around the world and as they grow they build and own their dealerships and service centers for a seamless experience. It is only a matter of time before they replicate around the world what they have accomplished with sales in the United States. The premium car market is similar in most countries.

Furthermore the premise that someone would cross shop a 4 door sedan that can seat 5 adults with an exotic, cramped, uncomfortable and temperamental supercar is a bit suspect.

UrBusted

The United States isn't the entire world. The S Class is the best selling sedan for $100k around the world. That fact has already been established. If you wish to say best selling sedan, please include "in the US". By 2020 Tesla aim to build around 500,000 cars. Mercedes, BMW and Audi produce way over 1,000,000 at this moment. It's not like $450,000,000 loan will help, as well as the $500,000,000 currently being lent by big banks which can go up to $750,000,000.
I was replying to the comment about the Tesla being exclusive and that the Tesla is one of the fastest cars at its price. How does maintenance on a Lamborghini Diablo, Mclaren F1, Ferrari Enzo and a Porsche Carrera GT even compare to a much more modern GTR, or Gallardo? Those cars are either 20 years old or $1,000,000+. The two vehicles mentioned are neither of the two.

WEBSRFR

Okay so basically we can both agree that the Model S is the best selling premium car around $100K in the US and for now the S class is the world's best selling premium car while Tesla builds out their worldwide dealership/distribution and supercharger infrastructure.

We can agree to disagree on the fact that I feel Tesla will replicate the Model S sales dominance around the world in the premium car segment as the American premium car buyers are likely not that different from the premium car buyers of other developed countries.

All this becomes a moot point if and when Mercedes finally stops dicking around with hybrids and designs an S Class EV. It's just a matter of how much market share they will cede to Tesla before they do that.

PeterUbers

In 30 years when there are 2000 pages to this thread and I'm thinking about retiring,hopefully I'll be able to have the last comment before it's locked

WEBSRFR

Fortunately, the Internet is a big place to accommodate quite a bit of discussion

In 30 years you will likely be driving an EV with over a 1,000 mile range so this will all be quite a moot topic... Mercedes CEO Dieter Zetsche has gone on record stating that EVs are the future and that it is only a matter of time before all vehicles are EVs.

They are just dragging their feet.

https://mbworld.org/forums/new-s-cla...itis-more.html

PeterUbers

Probably right. And with how impressive these EV cars are now they are only going to get better.

Wolfman

This Thread is becoming more pointless by the day...

The horse has been dead for a long time and very few people dispute that EV's have a bright future ahead.

The issue that many people have is with the Model S itself. Lots to like and a lot to dislike (in my case). It works for you and I am happy for you, but you should extend the same courtesy to others.

Sales figures also don't show that you are right and others are wrong (and I would never pitch marketing materials as "facts").

Keep in mind Tesla = Model S at this point. Sales of it will most likely tank when the Model X is introduced (people love their SUV's) and more so if a $30k-$40k model comes out.
At that point Tesla will be like any other car company offering a low/medium/high end model range and a small part of it's sales being in the $100k range.

Which makes for a bright future for Tesla