wows500

That is one of my dreams to take the vacation and come back home with a car with all the options of my choice.

5634MG

How come the tesla only has one camera yet it seems to work better than the w222 which has stereo cameras?

e_dasani

And why does the thread keeps getting shorter and shorter.

WEBSRFR

Yes, I'm surprised more people don't take the EDP route when buying a Mercedes. You can use it whether you buy or lease your car plus you get to tour the factory and drive on well maintained German roads.

WEBSRFR

We just reached page 2 and you can find the rest of the discussion on the previous page.

WEBSRFR

As I've said before the Mercedes Sensor suite is far superior to the Tesla sensor suite but the Mercedes Sensor Suite is limited by them not being able to update the software and the system not being linked together with limited AI/Deep Learning.

The currently available software in Mercedes cars is rudimentary compared to what Tesla has available but perhaps that is because Mercedes is not able to update the software so they have to be super conservative with what they release while Tesla can address any issues instantly with a software update.

The Tesla Autopilot software has already gone through three iterations of improvement and it is now reportedly autonomously driving over a million miles a day at a level that is statistically safer than a human driving a car. While it is doing that the system is further enhanced by Deep Learning algorithms that learn from the behavior of the entire fleet of Teslas that are now driving around. All that data is uploaded to Tesla to build high precision maps of lanes and driving behaviors of all roads for the benefit of the entire Tesla fleet. When Autopilot was first released it had a tendency to sometimes take exit ramps if I was on the right hand lane. Each time I would nudge the steering so it would stay on the main road. Now it has learned to not take the exit ramp not just for my car but the entire fleet of Tesla vehicles.

As someone in the software development field this is cool stuff and it is nice to have a car that is as sophisticated as the rest of the software I interact with.

This journey is just starting and traditional car companies need to completely change their mindset of sitting on technology and withholding it for release in their cars the next model year or the next redesign several years away. Every Mercedes S Class sold since 2014 should be able to match or exceed the capabilities of Tesla Autopilot with a software update but it seems they would rather that you just buy a brand new car. This won't work in the long term as Tesla, Apple, and other technology companies start building cars with software updates that make the car better.

By the way the camera system in the S Class is stereo, in the sense that it has two cameras. However it is not designed the way we use two eyes to figure out depth. A car really does not need stereo cameras if you think about it because while the car is moving, each micro second the optical perception of a single camera is different based on the movement of the car so one camera can actually be used like a stereo camera with software accounting for the movement of the car in an x,y,z axis. Unless I am mistaken the two forward facing cameras of the S Class are setup differently based on field of vision. One camera is super wide and the other is designed to better see what is happening at a distance. The Model X will have two up front cameras like the S Class but clearly that is not needed to deliver almost autonomous highway driving already as Tesla has shown.

Here's a fascinating presentation of the state of the art of autonomous driving. It is a bit long but goes into detail on cutting edge developments in the field and this is from the 2016 CES conference. Of importance to note is that Tesla is a "Tier 1" partner of Mobile Eye in the sense that they work directly with Mobile Eye to integrate the latest technology in their cars with Tesla actually developing the software for the integration. Other car manufacturers depend on integrators and suppliers like Delphi to do the work but thereby delaying the integration of some of the technology by an additional year or two.

e_dasani

Websrfr, on a related subject, the cloud-based MBrace that Mercedes currently uses, is a complete nuisance. Even simple tasks like remote start are terrible (it hesitates and takes minutes). We hear it is due to 3G Verizon service that Mercedes uses, could you throw light on that? Secondly, I do note on one of your videos where you show Tesla being summoned under a Carport, I sense a similar hesitation on part of Tesla?.

WEBSRFR

Can't really comment much about MBrace but given that it does not maintain a persistent data connection with the car and the cloud, unlike what the Tesla does, The MBrace system is likely not a true cloud based system. It is more a traditional client server approach where the car or the server can poll each other as needed for various data transactions with a separate connection being established each time. I could be wrong on this but that's at least how it used to work as whenever we would send a signal to the car it is not instant.

Remote Start with MBrace has been problematic for us too and I think they have a lot of stipulations on how and when the system can be activated. Remember that due to the internal combustion engine, it is a very bad idea to use remote start in a small enclosed garage like you would find in a house as it could fill the cabin (and possibly your house) with all sorts of poisonous gases unless the garage door is opened and the car is moved outside right away. This negates the whole benefit of being able to have the car sit there and heat up the interior with remote start in a residential garage. Not sure if the plug in hybrids can start the car without the engine running if the car is in an enclosed garage.

With my cellphone I can "turn" on our Tesla from anywhere in the world as the car is constantly connected to the Tesla servers and the whole process is instant. In fact after a recent software update I can now use my cellphone pretty much as a key fob to start and drive the car.

As for Tesla Summon feature, any hesitation you see is that the system is being super super careful. When no one is in the driver's seat, not only is the car really careful but the amount of torque it is uses is limited. So the car is constantly calibrating the bare minimum of torque needed to move while constantly monitoring all the ultrasonic sensors. Our garage is very narrow and I can only open the door on one side. The car does a very good job very carefully and parking itself in our garage.

HSCLA

is anyone else having scary braking events when coming up behind a stopped car at speed? Never had a problem w/ my other pre-W222 S and SL distronic cars - I've tried setting the stalk rotation to the most conservative setting - no difference! Dealer shop foreman confirmed the problem in a drive along - MB tech rep won't meet to discuss.


I drove another S class from stock w/ my sales rep - same problem.


Comments?

WEBSRFR

Maybe the Distronic system needs another car in front to "lock in" and what you are seeing is not Active Cruise Control per se but actual Automatic Emergency Braking which is the last line of defense.

Stopped cars are very tricky for cars to understand as the car needs to be able to differentiate a non moving object from a wall to a car. So for it to work well, the system needs additional contextual information such as the position of the road, lane markings, and even image recognition. This is really where being able to update the software comes in as the current S Class is perfectly capable of doing all that I mentioned with the present hardware.

I hope with the next generation E Class, Mercedes makes the auto driving software updateable over the air and this will also be implemented in the S Class. There is so much functionality they can enable for cars they have sold with software updates.

After the most recent software update our Tesla now runs an image recognition algorithm on the road ahead and identifies cars, trucks, cyclists for what they are and it is now much better at slowing down for cars ahead. The initial Tesla autopilot system had some of the same issues you mentioned because it did not know the stopped car ahead was actually a car as the software was initially released without this image recognition capability and this is perhaps where the currently released Mercedes software is.

Tesla or Mercedes don't count on the system 100% yet. If you see the car is not slowing down for a stopped car, don't wait until the last minute when Emergency Braking kicks in. Stop the car on your own if you feel you need to.

WEBSRFR

Just to show you how sophisticated the Tesla Autopilot system has become after the last software update, check out the video below. The system can now drive the car on a road with absolutely no lane markings.

You can see the image recognition algorithms in action around 0:40 when the car encounters a cyclist on one side and opposing traffic on the other side. As a good driver would, the car recognizes the cyclist, slows down, and drives safely between the cyclist and the opposing traffic and increases the speed after safely passing the cyclist.

I can't say this enough. Software updates are essential for Mercedes excel in this arena. Just imagine if all the 2014+ S Class vehicles sold already could be updated over the air with this level of capability.

HSCLA

That is very impressive. Tesla is reinventing the high end tech space. thanks. Regarding your prior email, I believe you are essentially correct. There seems to be a "hand off failure" between the medium and long range distronic radar system. When I'm coming up on a stopped or slow moving vehicle from a distance at speed, I can see on the dash display its been detected by distronic, but unlike my earlier generation distronic cars, it simply keeps speeding on instead of slowing like my prior cars. It's weird since you have this developed "brain map" created from prior car's distronic behavior that says, "hey, this car should be slowing down about now" and it keeps flying forward, no slowing. I was certain the system simply needed a re-flash / adjustment....not so.
Finally the dealer shop foreman mentioned confidentially that they were having an interface issue with the Bosch sensor array & the MB SW...something like that. I tried for a meeting w/ the zone engineer but it became clear they absolutely didn't want a meeting. I'm certain there have been some serious accidents over this interface issue. I only need one car these days now living in San Francisco full time - I think its Tesla time...if I can just get my wife to let go of the opulent Designo interior in the S Class.

wows500

Thanks WEBSRFR for sharing the Tesla video very impressive. I hope Mercedes irons out all the kinks and the owners of 2014 and 2015 S can enjoy the built in capabilities of the available technology.

Dema

How safe is Tesla's software update? Can it be hacked and someone can just upload malicious update bringing you in damage?

Can Tesla also apply 100% brake force? I heard that MB can apply just 40% and if it needs more, then it starts beeping asking for a help from a driver.

icebeam

Yes, It could be hacked. Anything can be hacked. Someone could RETRACTED a Tesla admin. (or do a more sophisticated hack like RETRACTED) then someone could push out malicious code to all cars and cause them to crash during autopilot.

I'm sure Tesla takes preventive measures such as Multi Factor Authentication Active Logging, etc.

Plus to do this someone would have to know how to code, hack, and modify 3D automation mapping software. The skills required to do this would net a pretty good paycheck in private industry (I know mine do). I also see little financial incentive for any individual to do this. So I don't we will see this soon. Now corporate espionage that's a story for a different day.

Wolfman

40% braking would be the normal braking force used to come to a full stop. 100% brake force is extreme neck-snapping emergency brake. I couldn't imagine any system applying that without warning.

MB does apply 100% brake force if the driver doesn't react to the warning and there is an impeding impact.

Dema

I believe that most terrible hacking is going from some ex employees who want to revenge some unfair actions to them. I doubt that some random hacker can do something. Any attempts to break the system will be detected and the person will be isolated.

expresspotato

So I've been thinking about getting a nearly fully loaded S-Class for some time now, but am slowly realizing the S-Class is actually outdated in terms of tech...

emilner

Mine can't cure cancer yet. And she won't make me a sandwich no matter what. But knowing she's the best luxury sedan on the planet makes it all worth it. These minxes just have the upper hand...

icebeam

Had a good laugh at this. Thanks!

emilner

WEBSRFR

I reached that same conclusion a little over a year ago. Sine then the car we own has significantly improved with software updates. Our Tesla can now drive itself on highways and drop us off at our driveway and park itself in the garage like a modern premium car should. Tesla has completely changed the tech game for premium cars.

After all the Tesla updates and new features added to our car over the last year for free, I can't imagine buying a car that doesn't receive new features and software updates over the air.

As for what car is best for you, it is a personal choice that only you can answer. I suggest that you ask for an extended test drive of a Model S and an S Class and buy the car you like the best.

icebeam

Best advice you are going to get right there. To each their own. I just don't see Tesla as a luxury car yet. Nothing is luxurious about having to plan your long trips around charging stations. Sometimes I just want to drive with no stops from AZ to CA or AZ to NV (Other than 5mins for gas). Then the interior was just to basic. If they had better range and a nicer interior I would consider. The other problem people don't understand is when its 125F outside your battery drains so quick with that A/C on in a tesla.

People always tend to come back with oh the GPS does the routing for you etc. Still if I buy a gas car today I don't deal with any extra overhead. Get me a 300-500 mile range with full A/C and a network of battery changing stations that don't cost me a huge fee other than the electricity used and Mr. Musk might get my money some day. Oh, and don't forget about that interior.

P.S: I do think that over the air updates are great. I'm glad Tesla is doing it. Eventually all other manufactures will do it. MB is just more like healthcare organizations. Very slow moving and love low risk.

mtimmy

If Mercedes is reading this thread , you are losing me as a loyal customer over Tesla because your distronic+ sucks on my 2014 E63s...

I always wanted to order a fully loaded S63, but ended up with a P90D model X order.

AppleFan1

You bring up a great point. I own a 2014 S550 and I noticed this problem soon after I bought the car. It will not break itself if a car in front is stopped. I obviously have never waited until the last second for the emergency breaking to take hold. If I see that my car will not slow down for a stopped car ahead, I apply the brakes myself. Otherwise, the Distronic feature works very well as long as the vehicle ahead of me is moving. But it's also obvious that the Tesla Auto Pilot is much more sophisticated now with over the air updates. I wonder if MB will have software updates (at least at the dealer) one of these days to improve some of these issues.