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Old 01-08-2009, 11:00 PM   #151
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Except you leave out the part where most churches actively try to convert people to their views, and accept the fact that people do have different religious views (even if that means they go to hell, or where ever). And again, a church that you don't belong to, believing that you will go to hell, affects you in what way?
It's about what their followers do to the rest of the community.

Groups have, and are still advocating, changing the Constitution to allow prayer in school.

US Senator Jessie Helms introduced a bill in 1986 to remove tax exempt status from existing Wiccan believers and to further prevent any new "unorthodox" groups from obtaining such status.

Until a1961 US Supreme Court decision, atheist were barred from holding office, or serving as a witness or juror at a trial by state laws.

Of course, there's also the original "burning witches" practice.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:21 PM   #152
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Again, these are wacky extremists. I doubt you'll find many Christians here who would defend their actions.
I think you'll find plenty of people in America who do. Those abortion clinics weren't bombed by ghosts, and they weren't funded by magic.

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Perhaps you should research Leviticus a little more. You would find that obedience to these "laws" is not a requirement in most Christian religions (Roman Catholic since you pointed out the Pope), and not obeying them is not a sin.
Oh, right. So we don't have to obey what's in the Bible.

So I guess all the homosexuals can go off and **** to their hearts' content, then.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:32 PM   #153
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And again, a church that you don't belong to, believing that you will go to hell, affects you in what way?
Well, there's the obvious issue of regarding their lives as not worthwhile, and not worth protecting. And then there's the religious wars.

Then there's their trying to save us from going to hell through legislation and policy. Banning condoms to ensure that, while people might die of AIDS, at least they won't go to hell when they do die. Banning contraception to ensure that they and their many children live and die in poverty. Banning abortion (in some Christian countries, even where the mother's life is in danger), and allowing the the mother to die. Refusing to allow equal protection and rights to homosexuals. Pushing for alterations to education policy that will severely damage the teaching of science. Banning stem-cell research so that I can't be cured of some disease that I could get in the future.

That would be some of the ways in which their beliefs affect the rest of us.

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Old 01-09-2009, 02:42 AM   #154
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To take Revstriker's point of view and take it to it's logical application . . . what does religion care about homosexualtiy, fornication, or the sin of non-members? In what way, as he says, are they affected by the acts of "heathens?"
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:44 AM   #155
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You're very welcome. It's odd how this thread started off hostile and got civil. That's not how it usually works...
It was lax for a bit but looks like things picked up again.

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So would it be the same for a high-camp media personality who lives off the image in the same way? I'm not sure who's famous for things like that in America - maybe Ru Paul or someone?
The thing with guys like Hef is that I can understand their reasoning for advertising heterosexuality. Is he over the top, sure. But at least there is a purpose for his exuberant image.

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It'd be nice to think that they did. I'm sure some do.
Most catch on eventually after enough rejections.

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I'm sure I've mastered this.....
Aren't we all?
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Old 01-09-2009, 07:42 AM   #156
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I think you'll find plenty of people in America who do. Those abortion clinics weren't bombed by ghosts, and they weren't funded by magic.
I wish all Religious people were like the ones Rev was speaking of, i.e the level-headeds who would look down on those acts as much as any of us "anti"-Religious people do, but unfortunately there are in fact enough of the crazies to make it a valid concern and worth us coming out and speaking our own beliefs as confidently and candidly as many Religious people do.

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Well, there's the obvious issue of regarding their lives as not worthwhile, and not worth protecting. And then there's the religious wars.

Then there's their trying to save us from going to hell through legislation and policy. Banning condoms to ensure that, while people might die of AIDS, at least they won't go to hell when they do die. Banning contraception to ensure that they and their many children live and die in poverty. Banning abortion (in some Christian countries, even where the mother's life is in danger), and allowing the the mother to die. Refusing to allow equal protection and rights to homosexuals. Pushing for alterations to education policy that will severely damage the teaching of science. Banning stem-cell research so that I can't be cured of some disease that I could get in the future.

That would be some of the ways in which their beliefs affect the rest of us.
Oh Jesus (no pun intended), that all sounds so lovely.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:05 PM   #157
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http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf

Well, speaking of gay rights, I hope that Obama sticks to the campaign promise to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act. It was a rare good idea from his campaign of nothing. DOMA basically says that as far as the Feds are concerned, marriage is only between a man and a woman. DOMA has a very real everyday impact on gay people, including limiting their ability to receive certain benefits in the workplace, such as participation in flexible spending plans (aka cafeteria, 125 plans).

Do you guys think he will indeed focus on this and successfully get it repealed?

Also, anyone remember which POTUS signed DOMA into law? Perhaps Reagan, Bush I, Bush II? First right answer gets a picture posted in this thread personally by me of either a hot tennis gal or a cool 80s band (winner's choice).
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:15 PM   #158
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Repeal of DOMA is a stated postion, however so is BHO's positon on gay marriage:

As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples — whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage.

Unlike Senator Clinton, I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA)


Politics and Religion, the cocktail of choice when your really want to get wasted.

Former President Clinton's position regarding the definition of marriage, he is personally opposed to including same sex couples, as is president elect Obama.

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Old 01-09-2009, 02:26 PM   #159
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It affects me because it's scary that some people can be so delusional to me. I get scared because if people can be so washed into seriously thinking everyone who is not of their belief will burn in hell, it makes me wonder what they will exactly do for that Religion (violently speaking) if they were ever called and provoked to do so.
I'm still not sure of how this affects you other than feeding into your paranoia.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:28 PM   #160
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It's about what their followers do to the rest of the community.

Groups have, and are still advocating, changing the Constitution to allow prayer in school.
So certain groups should not have the right to lobby their elected officials on issues that are of interest to them?
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:34 PM   #161
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I think you'll find plenty of people in America who do. Those abortion clinics weren't bombed by ghosts, and they weren't funded by magic.
Define "plenty of people".

Yes there are extreme groups that support violence. However, no religion, and to my knowledge, no religious leader in the US has voiced any support of this.

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Oh, right. So we don't have to obey what's in the Bible.
Again, do more research. There are plenty of examples of things in the bible which have been later clarified or changed.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:36 PM   #162
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To take Revstriker's point of view and take it to it's logical application . . . what does religion care about homosexualtiy, fornication, or the sin of non-members? In what way, as he says, are they affected by the acts of "heathens?"
Religions openly admit to their desire to spread their beliefs. So they have an interest on what those outside of their respected religions believe.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:41 PM   #163
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I wish all Religious people were like the ones Rev was speaking of, i.e the level-headeds who would look down on those acts as much as any of us "anti"-Religious people do, but unfortunately there are in fact enough of the crazies to make it a valid concern and worth us coming out and speaking our own beliefs as confidently and candidly as many Religious people do.
There are plenty of religions who speak out, and continue to speak out against such violence. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a religion or religious leader who says anything in support of the violence. I don't see how you can draw a line from a tiny group of crazies (and yes, it is tiny) to mainstream religion.

And nobody has an objection to you coming out and voicing your beliefs. The only objection is when you choose to do so in a violent, or disrespectful way.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:45 PM   #164
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Repeal of DOMA is a stated postion, however so is BHO's positon on gay marriage:

As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage.

Unlike Senator Clinton, I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA)
If this (bolded part) means letting the "people" of the state decide, then I agree. But if means letting some liberal court decide, then I disagree.

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Former President Clinton's position regarding the definition of marriage, he is personally opposed to including same sex couples, as is president elect Obama.
Except that Clinton signed DOMA into law, and Obama wants it repealed.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:49 PM   #165
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Religions openly admit to their desire to spread their beliefs. So they have an interest on what those outside of their respected religions believe.
And the definition of "meddling" . . . "assimilation" . . . "conversrion" . . . "conformity" . . . "discrimination" . . . is what?
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:52 PM   #166
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Except that Clinton signed DOMA into law, and Obama wants it repealed.
I presume you know that DOMA was fast tracked and passed by both houses of Congress with overwhelming majority votes from both sides of the political spectrum. Former President Clinton was not in disagreement with the definition of marriage as set out in DOMA, so it was pretty much a done deal and immune from veto when it reached him.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:57 PM   #167
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Except that Clinton signed DOMA into law, and Obama wants it repealed.


And there you have it exactly. Wasn't Bush, wasn't Reagan. Another fiction of the left (Democrats are better for gay rights) dispelled.

Bill Clinton himself signed an anti-gay law that is not purely rhetorical - it actually prevents gay people nationwide (including in liberal states like California and New York) from receiving material benefits.

Given Obama's inconsistent statements about gay rights and his many other unrealistic promises that will no doubt keep him busy, I have my doubts about whether he will really even try to repeal DOMA.

Rev, do you want the pic to be of a hot tennis babe or a cool 80s band?!
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:37 PM   #168
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I presume you know that DOMA was fast tracked and passed by both houses of Congress with overwhelming majority votes from both sides of the political spectrum. Former President Clinton was not in disagreement with the definition of marriage as set out in DOMA, so it was pretty much a done deal and immune from veto when it reached him.
The point is, he held a very different view than Obama's stated view. He certainly did not speak out against DOMA, did not threaten to veto it, and did not veto it. It was a bill, that Obama disagrees with, which was signed into law by Clinton. He could have vetoed it and put it back into the hands of the Congress/Senate to pass.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:37 PM   #169
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And the definition of "meddling" . . . "assimilation" . . . "conversrion" . . . "conformity" . . . "discrimination" . . . is what?
Certainly not religion if that is your point.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:44 PM   #170
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And there you have it exactly. Wasn't Bush, wasn't Reagan. Another fiction of the left (Democrats are better for gay rights) dispelled.
Sounds like the Dems need a Minitrue. Where's Winston Smith?

Rev, do you want the pic to be of a hot tennis babe or a cool 80s band?! [/QUOTE]I'll take a cool 80s band.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:54 PM   #171
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I'll take a cool 80s band.
Here's one that you know...

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:58 PM   #172
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Here's one that you know...
Good pick. I actually met them in the 80s.
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Old 01-09-2009, 10:39 PM   #173
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Define "plenty of people". .
Hmmm.....

In terms of people doing the violence, not that many - we're probably looking at hundreds. I'd say, given the horrific acts they aim to perpetrate, that's plenty.

In terms of people actively supporting it - helping raise funds, attending prayer meetings, voicing support on websites, etc - hundreds of thousands. Maybe into the low millions. I'd say, given the horrific acts they're supporting, that's plenty.

But you've spoken elsewhere about Muslims not speaking out against violence by extremists, and holding them responsible for this. If we follow the same definitition, we're well into the tens of millions.

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Again, do more research. There are plenty of examples of things in the bible which have been later clarified or changed.
So you're saying not every rule in the Bible needs to be followed? There are some "pick and choose" sins?

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No, premarital sex does not fall into the "fun Pick and choose" area. Show me where in the bible it lists all the "pick and choose" sins? Fact is that pre marital sex in Christian religions is a sin, and is preached against.
So you're saying every rule in the Bible needs to be followed? There are no "pick and choose" sins?
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:03 PM   #174
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Hmmm.....

In terms of people doing the violence, not that many - we're probably looking at hundreds. I'd say, given the horrific acts they aim to perpetrate, that's plenty.

In terms of people actively supporting it - helping raise funds, attending prayer meetings, voicing support on websites, etc - hundreds of thousands. Maybe into the low millions. I'd say, given the horrific acts they're supporting, that's plenty.

But you've spoken elsewhere about Muslims not speaking out against violence by extremists, and holding them responsible for this. If we follow the same definitition, we're well into the tens of millions.



So you're saying not every rule in the Bible needs to be followed? There are some "pick and choose" sins?



So you're saying every rule in the Bible needs to be followed? There are no "pick and choose" sins?


IMO anyone who picks and chooses is a huge hypocrite and not a true follower. If you want to follow your chosen faith, and knowingly Sin, that's fine if it works for you, but don't go condemning anyone for doing anything Sinful if that's all your basing your judgement on (which very usually is the case). If you have sex earlier than Marriage, you're just as "Sinful" and bad in Gods eyes as a Homosexual is, of course if you're one who allows your Religion to make your judgments for you.

What happens with that is you have a bunch of mis-informed, mislead, delusional, and basically judgmentally-wrong and foolish people everywhere, and where that concerns me personally, is that I have a vested interest in the people whom I live among, and wish and would expect for them to be as truly mentally secure as possible.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:27 AM   #175
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The point is, he held a very different view than Obama's stated view. He certainly did not speak out against DOMA, did not threaten to veto it, and did not veto it. It was a bill, that Obama disagrees with, which was signed into law by Clinton. He could have vetoed it and put it back into the hands of the Congress/Senate to pass.
Both Clinton and Obama share the same personal view that definition of marriage should not include same sex partners.

Where they differ is that Obama does not believe it should be a federal law that creates that definition, instead it should be up to the states and the state's decisions (and primarily the recognition by other states) should not be trumped by a federal law.
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