Parking Garage Liability - **LONG**

[Ebrigham]

Anyone here in NY ever deal with collecting damages from a parking garage in small claims court? I am getting some professional legal advice but was wondering if any of the folks here have any experience. My story below is long (and a break from Mid-East thread flame wars I hope), but I thought it would be good to include details: I had a monthly spot from Oct 2001 to Apr 2003 at a NYC garage – I never missed a payment. I placed a deposit with them as well. At the end of the X-mas holidays, my GF and I brought my mint condition (undamaged) Maserati into the garage (599 miles on the odo). My GF and I both have seen Ferris Bueller’s Day off, and make a point to check the odometer every time we drop off/pick up the car. The car was virginal when we left it with the garage employee to put away (as usual). When we picked it up in early April, we found and immediately noticed a small ding in the passenger side door. Given the poor winter weather, the car did not leave the garage for several months (the odo still read 599 miles and perhaps moved several hundred feet – A normal amount I presume). At this point, I told the attendant that brought the car to us that this is their fault and I would like to fill out forms to make a claim. They don’t have any formal claims process and told us to call when the manager is in (during the week). I call the manager the next Monday who tells me to call the owner. I call the owner; when his son picks up the phone, he immediately begins accusing me of trying to scam him and that I can’t prove anything. He also claims that since the garage from time to time washes the cars (including mine) my “side deal” is a sham and I am ******* (he claims they were unaware of the car washes, and that it’s not a service “they” offer). When I told him that it WAS a service that the garage employees offered, he disclaimed any responsibility for their actions. I also told him that car washes are performed on the premises and in plain view of any management that may walk in (they are not illicit business dealings). Keep in mind I sighted the car in the garage post-wash with NO damage on it (but my GF was not there to witness). I am not sure when the car was damaged, I just know it happened in the garage. When the owner himself called me, he too was immediately hostile and said that by paying the garage people for car washes was tantamount to fraud (b/c the business did not get the money directly). I told him that I paid the employees and had no idea they were “screwing the owner”. I told him that I paid the garage people in good faith and that they should protect their customers from their employees’ shams. He disclaimed responsibility for their actions. At no point did the owner or his son deny causing the damage. They said “we will not pay you”. Needless to say, I cancelled my spot within days. The amount I am seeking isn’t that much, summing the pro-rated amount of pre-paid April fee, my damage deposit refund and repair for the door ($350)- a bit over $1000. I probably wouldn’t even pursue it if it weren’t for the ******* factor and the fact that one of these folks made a thinly veiled derogatory remark about my favorite minority group (Hispanics). The garage owner was not present at any time in the garage that I know of and has relied, from what I can tell, on employee accounts of what may have happened. At no point did he even listen to my side of the story. Except for the exception above, I have my GF as a 3rd party witness to all these events. Am I really at fault because their employees washed my car in the past? To me, it seems like a passive aggressive attempt by the garage to victimize itself because their employess may or may not be running a scam. If so, does this limit their liability for any damage caused? Any thoughts on the strength of my case? I may have left out some details but I will stop here for now and take a breath (every time I think about these jerks it makes me want to kung fu).

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[etenn]

Take these guys to the mat. This aggressive, in your face, defense is the oldest crap in the world. Most people walk away and avoid the problem. Get a very good attorney who knows he will win based on the evidence you have. Better yet, find one who has had a problem with parking garages in the past. You should be able to get attorneys fees upon winning.

As a second tactic, go to the newspaper with the story and try to keep it going as much as you can. Amazing what publicity does in these cases. Probably have a bunch of people come out with the same problems with these people.

Let us know how it goes.

Ed

[nellee]

I agree with Etenn, go to the news and report the treatment you were receiving and report about a possible "sham" by the employees at the garage. Here in San Francisco, a new station does a segment "7 on your side" and reports problems you may be having with certain businesses. The negative attention the garage may receive may hurt their business more than they would want.

Originally posted by nellee
I agree with Etenn, go to the news and report the treatment you were receiving and report about a possible "sham" by the employees at the garage. Here in San Francisco, a new station does a segment "7 on your side" and reports problems you may be having with certain businesses. The negative attention the garage may receive may hurt their business more than they would want.

Yes and no.

I don't know about SF, but parking is hard to come by in some cities, and some even have waiting lists for spots. If this garage is like that, that would explain the poor attitudes of the people you dealt with.

In the end, its a parking garage, probably one of the last places I'd check out for their staff competance, but more for their security. Any publicity is probably not going to hurt these guys very much. The best course of action would be to enact revenge.

There was a story on here before about a 'scandalous' incident that occured in a woman's SUVr while it was in for servicing. As revenge she wrote details of the incident it in huge letters on her SUV everytime she had to visit the dealership.

That kinda stuff grabs people's attention, like parking infront of the garage with a huge sing on your car:

"This garage damaged my car and refused responsibility, do you trust your car here?"

This would be better than an newspaper ad or TV segment, you'd get to the actual garage patrons!

[Ebrigham]

Originally posted by taylor192
Yes and no.

..
There was a story on here before about a 'scandalous' incident that occured in a woman's SUVr while it was in for servicing. As revenge she wrote details of the incident it in huge letters on her SUV everytime she had to visit the dealership.

That kinda stuff grabs people's attention, like parking infront of the garage with a huge sing on your car:
...

This would be better than an newspaper ad or TV segment, you'd get to the actual garage patrons!

Well, there is definately NOT a waiting list for this garage, so the business they lost from me will not automatically be picked up from another unwary customer. Since I will probably be living in NYC for some time (5 to 10 years) - I estimate the garage will lose more than $25K- $50k in lifetime business from me, probably even more. So even if they win in small claims court, their attitude cost them ~ $5K per year pre-tax.

And you're right, I don't think these guys care about publicity and seem to pride themselves on acting like festering rectums (I actually laughed at the owner when he was running his mouth). Considering I will eventually be pursuing small claims court, I am not sure if I want to deal with the added time hassle of picketing, etc. (I am a partner in a new business). Also, I am not sure the local news will jump at my "sob story" and air "The case of the unfortunate Maserati owner". Anyway, considering that I hold myself to a higher standard than these people, I do not want to focus on "revenge", simply exercising my rights through the legal system.

[etenn]

Why not revenge?? Revenge is always fun...especially when you have an appreciative group watching and cheering here on MBW:p :p

Ed

[beantownrich]

Can I suggest reporting it to the Better Business Bureau. Not only will this help unaware customers (you'd be surprised how many people use this service) but they also can offer dispute resolution services that are a hell of a lot cheaper than attorneys.

[Kal Rubinson]

I would definitely take it to Small Claims Court where any uncouth and obstinate expressions on their part would be to your advantage. This kind of behavior should not be tolerated.

BTW, why did you have to leave a "damage deposit?" I've parked on a monthly basis in several NYC garages and never paid one. In my current garage, I've made 2 claims in the past 10 years and, aside from the owner promoting his own repair shop, they have been willing to acknowledge and pay for them.

(Also, in my garage, there is a sign posted by management which clearly states that having the attendants wash your car is prohibited. Nonetheless, almost all of us trespass.)

[Ebrigham]

Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
I would definitely take it to Small Claims Court where any uncouth and obstinate expressions on their part would be to your advantage. This kind of behavior should not be tolerated.

BTW, why did you have to leave a "damage deposit?" I've parked on a monthly basis in several NYC garages and never paid one. In my current garage, I've made 2 claims in the past 10 years and, aside from the owner promoting his own repair shop, they have been willing to acknowledge and pay for them.

(Also, in my garage, there is a sign posted by management which clearly states that having the attendants wash your car is prohibited. Nonetheless, almost all of us trespass.)

Kal - Looking back on it, I am not sure what the reason for the deposit was. However, I did get a receipt for it so if I win the case, it should be paid back. Looking back at this whole thing, I realize how shady these folks were/are. I will chalk it up to my experience in NYC garage matters. Their operation is particularly poor when compared to the places I visited in shopping for their replacement.

Beantownrich - I did a BBB search on these people, they have one complaint in the last 12 months outstanding that the garage apparantly ignored. My impression of BBB efforts is that they cannot compel any business to do anything. Given that the garage already said "no" and their open hostility to 2-way dialogue, I am 100% certain it will require a court order to pay.

etenn - don't tempt me!

[jl88]

All this over a ding?

I'm sure the owner would be more receptive if he felt like this was a more "legitimate" claim, like vandalism, theft, etc. He's probably thinking this is a $50 claim and not worth his time.

There is only circumstantial evidence. You cannot prove that the ding wasn't there before. In any metropolitan city, car accidents are COMMON and there are probably a billion door dings a year. If you're basing your claim on the derogatory comments he made about you, then I got a news flash, he'll make the same accusations. So unless you got a reputable third party that overheard all of this (sorry, family doesn't count!), then your claim doesn't have much weight.

Gotta learn how to pick your fights

my 2 cents

[etenn]

Originally posted by jl88
All this over a ding?

I'm sure the owner would be more receptive if he felt like this was a more "legitimate" claim, like vandalism, theft, etc. He's probably thinking this is a $50 claim and not worth his time.

There is only circumstantial evidence. You cannot prove that the ding wasn't there before. In any metropolitan city, car accidents are COMMON and there are probably a billion door dings a year. If you're basing your claim on the derogatory comments he made about you, then I got a news flash, he'll make the same accusations. So unless you got a reputable third party that overheard all of this (sorry, family doesn't count!), then your claim doesn't have much weight.

Gotta learn how to pick your fights

my 2 cents

Thats the attitude the owner is counting on.

[Ebrigham]

Originally posted by jl88
All this over a ding?

....

Gotta learn how to pick your fights

my 2 cents

As far as I am concerned, it is very simple: the garage damaged my car and has refused to pay. However, I will give them ample time to reconsider. My willingness to sue has not been taken lightly and is not based solely on his combative attitude (I live in NYC – it takes a big a$$hole to even move my needle). The owner is aware of the size of my claim and was never receptive. If my rant implied that I have no idea “how to choose my battles”, it is unintended and far from the truth. I do not afford myself a symbolic battle very often, but in this case, I will make an exception. If I lose, no biggie. Better than letting someone roll over you. If I get my money back, even better.

On (recent) advice from an attorney I learned that a girlfriend, though considered an “interested” third party, is indeed a legitimate witness (girlfriends are not family in the legal sense). An employee of the garage is also considered an “interested” witness. Testimony of everyone will be weighed (among other non-circumstantial evidence I have) and it is up to the judge to decide if I have proven my case. For the garage to have any chance of winning, one or more of its employees will have to perjure themselves and claim the car was damaged when they got it in December. If they are willing to prostitute themselves to win this case, I can live with that. Thanks for the accident statistics

[jl88]

Just curious, what kind of noncircumstantial evidence do you have? I don't like being the harbinger of bad news, but I can't see any direct evidence that you might have. It will end up being a "he said, she said"

There's is no way you can know for sure that the ding was caused before you left the car for storage. Memory is always shaky ground onwhich to base your claims. You need evidence backing up your claims.

I know i'm playing devil's advocate and my posts always come out as condescending, but I do wish you good luck on your case. I have gotten dings on my cars and I just chalk it up to the cost of ownership, like flat tires, maintenance costs, scraping car against the ground, etc.

Personally, if I were you, I would have just fixed the ding and used the rest of the money to obtain the social security #/personal information of the garage owner and ruin his credit/life/marriage

[phiv]

At least have a LONG letter sent to him on an attorney's letterhead, cite all kinds of arguments and accusations. That ought to have him loose sleep for a few nights, might even give him ulcer.

Don't forget to photograph the damages for evidence.

[oggle]

Take them to small claims court. Follow the legal road. If you have a good case you will win. It's that simple.

[Scorpius]

Bang the owners daughter... in the car he dented.

[Ebrigham]

Jl88 - By pointing out the obvious you indeed come off a bit condescending, but it seems unintended and I chalk this up to the spirit of debate. I always enjoy a “contrarian’s” view to hone my thoughts even if I disagree with the premise(s). Not to be dismissive, but I don’t have anything to gain by revealing more details of my case than I already have, and a lot to lose in the 0.001% chance someone at the garage sees this posting (yes I am paranoid, but it isn’t unreasonable to assume someone in the garage management could be a “car guy”). If you are skeptical, I understand. Overall, your view of the case is rather near the mark, but not 100% on the mark. I realize the burden of proof is on me to prove the garage is responsible – I would have to be entirely uninformed not to know this. If you are implying that it will be up to the judge to decide which oral testimony is more believable – you are 100% correct. The law gives a judge leeway in deciding who is more credible, A) the car owner (that has a small financial stake in the outcome) and his girlfriend (emotional stake in the outcome) or B) the garage attendant(s) (whose jobs are likely on the line). But if you are saying that there is no way my witness will provide value to my case, you are wrong. Quite simply, the only way for these folks to win is if the owner fabricates a story and then forces an employee(s) to lie. As I previously mentioned, I am prepared to lose if this happens. I accept the risk. Part of my largely symbolic battle is to get the owner to perjure his employee(s). By doing so, he breaks the law and degrades himself, even if he doesn’t know it or care. It may sound hokey to you, but I would rather do this than degrade myself and resort to “alternate” (and likely illegal) methods of retaliation.

Phiv – The garage employees have already mentioned how unpleasant/unhappy he is – I doubt I could shed much darkness on his life even if I wanted to. And I do have photographs of the damage, good point.

Oggle – I agree, and that’s basically my plan. I would rather lose than go through life knowing I let these people smack me around – call it a character flaw.

Scorpius – Ha! I will not desecrate my car by having any of the owner’s kin anywhere near it. Plus, if he does have a daughter, she’s heinous. Certainly not worth the grudge fu(k.

BTW everyone, the ding is fixed. The dudes in Greenwich did a great job.

[Air Marshall Eldritch]

E,

I don't think the owner even needs to bring along any employees to perjure themselves in small claims court.

He doesn't even have to show up. If he defaults, there is no way to force him to pay the judgement anyway.

[Ebrigham]

I haven't been around these forums recently, and I guess the giant glitch last year erased some of these posts on this thread...

Anyway, for those interested, I wound up taking these guys to court, and winning easily - and yes the garage manager basically perjered himself. The actual "trial" was pretty entertaining. Judgement was ordered in my favor and paid late last year.

Anway, after talking to a few laywer friends during the process, I consider myself a bit of a layman expert on this matter...

[ElDiabloJoe]

HAHAHA, and I was gonna post a WTLW on this because I remembered your original thread.

Thank you very much for updating us, I remember how pissed off you were back in April. Congrats on the good news! Even better that he *actually* paid and you didn't just get awarded an uncollectable judgement!

The good guys win one, wooo-hoooo!!

EDJ

[Ebrigham]

Don't you mean WTLY?

A week after the Garage was served with the court papers, they called to settle - for about 1/3 of my claim. I said too little too late chief.

The best part was when the opposing attorney met me after the court case and congratulated me on handing him his ass. It wasn't really his fault since he had zero case, even with a "semi-lying" witness. Anyway, before we parted ways, the attorney flat out told me that the garage owner is a complete ******* - He automatically rejects all damage claims, and counts on the probability the customer does not have the desire/time/etc to go to court. It was a bit more work than I am used to for $1200, but I actually learned quite a bit during the process.

Anyway, since I frequently see post of MB owners getting screwed by mechanics/dealers/etc, I though dredging this up might serve some purpose.