countrybumkin

had anyone done any internal mods to the m111 engine.

I was wondering if anyone has bored it out and if so what the results have been, also I would like to increase the rpm range of the engine, has anyone had cutom made valve springs done, and or does anyone have any suggestions of who to go to, to have this type of work done?

Thanks in advance
Diehl

mdp c230k

Brabus has a stroker engine with 2.5l and Renntech has a bunch of internal mods available for the M111.

Buellwinkle

Based on what those mods cost you are better off searching for an SLK32/C32 motor in the salvage yards. You can probably do the swap, labor and all for less than half what those 2 tuners would charge to make a 2.5 out of the 2.3 and be more reliable and way faster.

nukblazi

If you're really interested in doing some internal work...

You could get ltw pistons, titanium rods and tri-cut vavles, springs etc... port & polish the intake, head. Lighten and balance the crankshaft.

You could also do research into cam requirements and have a set made. I think that would be cheaper then purchasing the renntech cams.

Not the same as increasing displacement but healthy for the engine, usually produces healthy gains.

Having a specialty performance shop make these parts to spec would be cheaper then a tuners costs. Manley makes products to your specs, someone mentioned either getting or having parts priced with Crower on another board as well.

Edit- engine swaps are difficult, there are legal issues for the street. Emissions, computer, and the motor needing to be from the same year as the vehicle or newer are just some of the requirements... blah. I'd save motor swaps for 4x4s and Amer Muscle cars.

countrybumkin

thanks for the suggestions, engine swaps are out of the question for me, I know there are other ways to build more power but my goal is to pull the most power possible out of th m111, I just think it would be cool to see how far I can take it! I think 450hp is within reason if I can get the new kleeman sc and intercooler adn then go to town on the engine internals, I guess a couple calls to crower and maybe let the local engine builder take a look at the engine and see if he thinks it can be bored out a bit to increase displacement along w a full engine build up now I just need to see if kleeman can make a clutch that will hold that much hp and also I will probably have to get the tranny ball peined and cryo treated so that it will take the abuse. I am going to try to put completion of the project in the 2-3 year range it's tuff being a full time student and trying to come up with enough scratch to do it all at once especially since I am not willing to touch my savings. One step at a time I guess. first things first, eisenmann exhaust is being ordered in the next week and a half, then on from there. Anyone in the harrisburg are come to tgi fridays and tip me well so this obsession can get itself moving along lol. Any suggestions on companies to go to for custom valve springs? I'll also keep you all up to date on the progress on both the car and the research.

nukblazi

manley makes a lot of racing products to your specs, you could try them for a quote...

The site is www.manleyperformance.com

mdp c230k

Renntech make a cam set for the engine with new springs etc. I would look at stroking rather than boring the engine because it is supercharged and the pressure likes thicker cylinder walls. Porting and polishing will get you maybe 15hp at best. Kleemann makes a new flywheel and clutch for high power apps. Do not use nitros if you want to ever drive the car again! Good luck on your adventure and keep us posted.

countrybumkin

won't stroking the engine cause a reduction in the ability to achieve higher rpms?

mdp c230k

The M111 is not meant to be a rever, its a lower rpm torque monster. Stroking will increase the torque even more!

nukblazi

eh... stroke this...

A academic question. I know the M111 is not meant to be a rever, however, I have to keep the RPMs above 3K to "feel" like the motor is not bogging out.

So, will stroking the motor increase the low end torque but also, increase power across our RPM band as 6K is hardly a rever?



Other-
The renntech cams are there but, do you think they would still be the correct application if you either;

A. Increased the boost with a pulley and lightened and strengthed the internals, stroke the motor, increase flow with upgraded intake and exhaust?

B. Did a slight bore (brabus bores to 2.6 so that should be a safe bet) lightened and balanced the crank, titanium valves and rods, race tri-springs w/titanium retainers, etc. w/o increasing boost?


After doing this kind of work, do you stick to the stock redline?
After doing this kind of work, how do you determine the new redline?

mdp c230k

6k would be no problem even on a stroked M111. So, stoke away...
There are intake limits that determine redline in addition to valves springs etc.. The amount of airflow into the cylinders is the reason the power falls off at the high end. Not enough cfm to fill the cylinders at high rpm. Port and polish will give you a little more but not much more high end.

nukblazi

Personal background; I come from the uncomputerized V8 world of hotrods. You take what you can get, plug it in torque to spec, hope for the best. Then through trial and error, mix & match, find ways to make it work. End result actually ends up turning out decent power, but if you blow your motor, the highend internals aren't really that expensive and another block is 100 beans away at a junkyard, if that.

These aren't readily available american V8's though.
Can we get into a slightly more detailed discussion regarding the intricacies of doing this type of work? Is there anyone on this board who has done it? If there are none on this board, does anyone know of anyone so we can send them an invitation to participate?

It'd be very cool to get this Performance upgrade forum beyond bolt-ons. Plus I would really like to learn more.

Then we'd really be !

mdp c230k

The only off-the-shelf parts for the M111 I know of is the cams by Renntech. All other stuff must be custom made. Forged pistons would be nice as would titanium rods. That would net maybe 30hp without having to do major block or intake work. Lighter parts free up lots of power and make the engine free-reving. The cost will be high though.

nukblazi

Where could I find the stock engine specs to price parts?

Where could I find the torque specs to the M111?

Brandon @ Kleemann

nukblazi-

Provide me with a fax number and I'll see that you get the motor specs from MBZ WIS system. These are full dimensions of all reciprocating parts (cam profiles, valve size, bore, stroke etc etc).

nukblazi

kleemann thanks... I don't have a fax though. After the weekend, I'll see if I can pick up one of those cheap combo's. Kleemann, is the MBZ WIS system the one that is 17k/y to lease?

Since they're near me and I used to work there (in the shipping dept. part time but still), Manley Performance was the main place I was thinking of.

Any other recommendations? I'll call, give the specs, get pricing, the post the answers.


Anyone have any other suggestions or thoughts?

Nektopoli

You have just discovered the HOLE, there's a big drop in power between 2,000 and 2,500 RPM, do the MAS relocation and see if that bogging feeling goes away.

NP

Brandon @ Kleemann

Nektopoli-

nukblazi has a 2002 C Coupe, the MAF is already in the "relocated" position. Only M111 engines built until 5/00 have the MAF in need of reloating.

dswildfire

kleemann,
could you send me whatever you have on the stock specs of the engine? and if possible, information on the transmission (i.e. torque converter diameter, etc.)? please. fax # is
(818) 817-7731

thank you

countrybumkin

check with crower as well, and see if the price would drop with a group buy. if possible can you fax me the engine specs when you get them from kleeman I'd like to take them to the guy who built my buddy's engine and see what he thinks can be improved and if he can tell me what a safe bore would be under what boost,

kleemann by the way how much boost does the bigger pulley give and what is the boost on the new s/c system? also earlier I discussed increasing the rpm range and someone said stroke it and make more torque, my issue is top speed though, with a manual gear box I can only get my speedo to read 146 ish and by mb it is only suppossed to hit 142 so the only other option for higher speed is different gearing. any thoughts?

Lucas

To keep these projects " low budget " which for sure increasing CC won't, then I heard of some people which took of the Eaton SC
and replaced it with a turbo, this gave ton's of power in the high revs because the Eaton have such a huge drive loss and high discharge temps. in the upper range.

It could pratically be done as a home project, dismount the Eaton, build a Turbo manifold and a good diameter down pipe with steel cat, connect the turbo to the factory IC system and use the bypass system as it is, then there will be no problem with
fault codes because of missing plugs.
Maybe build in a larger IC and raise boost to 0,9 - 1,0 bar, should
see 260-300 HP, with a little ECU work.

Mosselmann in Holland can supply the turbo manifold, but his fake ECU tricks won't work.

nukblazi

I hate turbos. Not sure why, but I really do. There have been some others who are seeking this alternative, but I don't wanna. I rather be slower, then turbo'd.


That being said, for those of us with experience pulling motors and doing work on other vehicles, I am wondering if I can still keep this low budge by doing many of the things myself. More or less disassembly and reassembly.

As a first round, yank the motor, deliver block to have the displacement increased, maybe 2.5L. Clean up the head and intake, drop them off. Have the parts delivered, reassemble and trailer to have ECU reprogrammed/ Dyno'd/ tuned. Then, have the kleemann lightweight flywheel and pulley installed, Dyno, additional tuning?

I know I am being simplistic, but if no one tells me how wrong I am, I won't learn. What kind of crap can I expect to deal with from the ECU? Is just not worth doing it?

Nektopoli

Alot of people who say the SC62 "have such a huge drive loss and high discharge temps. in the upper range" have never had to deal with a true Roots blower(like the one on my MR2). I think the SLK could run higher boost number, near 1 BAR with a better intercooler.

NP

nukblazi

Since increasing the boost with either method is like for your motor, let's go back to discussing the motor. Doing this work will enable you increase the boost to higher numbers with greater performance, confidence, and reliability from your motor.

We've exhausted the topics of intercooling, silicon hoses, spray kits, thermo barier tape, and airbox relocation to reduce the parasitic loss on all the boards.

Can the M111 block handle the work we've been talking about? Has anyone done this kind of work before?

Nektopoli

I think the M111 is good for 250+HP. My Supercharged MR2 has a 1.6L 16V motor and it's pushing 90.63HP per Liter. The M111 is a 2.3L 16V motor putting out 80.43HP per Liter, very conservative by today's standards. The M111 should be good for 110HP per Liter easy, first thing to do is have the ECU reset for 93 octane gas, if yo can get it.

NP