benz_addict

Thanks for the tips Howard. I'm glad you are liking your S600. I love mine too they are just simply amazing machines. I really enjoy this thread and learned alot. Good stuff man!!

haoz129

Thanks my friend.

I do love it very much. What a kind of enjoyment everytime sitting behind the wheel.

All the best.

Howard

oldschoolmack

Hello Im new and Im planning on buying a S600 or S55 amg 2003-05 and I know maintenance costs will be extreme but are they prone to stay in the shop? I was thinking theyre the ultimate in engineering and performance and shouldnt have the same failure rate as a common lessor vehicle. Any info would be great on helping me decide. thanks

haoz129

Glad to see you are going for two of the best cars in the market.

No, I don't think they are necessarily like staying in the shop, IF, they are maintained properly.
For my case, I bought my 2003 S600 loaded with issues, then I fixed most of the problems and did preventative maintenance. Till now I didn't have any new issue yet, no surprise and just enjoy.
For me, my S600 is very reliable and dependable. That is extremely true if you can see every single parts in the car, they are high quality without doubt.
Like the old saying, you take care of the car, it will take care of you, a MB has no difference with others in this perspective.

But it is true, without proper maintenance, they tend to have more issues than lessor vehicles as they are much more advanced and complex.
Make it simple, just open the hood of a Corolla or a Civic, except the engine block, they have nothing there to fail compared with a S600. I am exaggerating here to help you understand my thought about reliability.

Designing a modern car is always a compromise and balance between: Saftey, Performance, Luxury, Comfortable, Usability, Reliability, Price, Ownership cost...
Base on my understanding, a S600 leans to the factors in the front.

More about reliability, pls see post #93 under the same thread:
https://mbworld.org/forums/5275707-post93.html

Good luck.

Howard

Welwynnick

Fantastic thread Howard - your can-do attitude is inspiring!

As the owner of a 2004 S600TT with with 153k miles on the clock (and NO warranty), it has a particular practical significance as well. So far I've replaced a coil pack, two O2 sensors, two MAP sensors, two tyres, and engine & tranny oil and filters. Not too bad so far, then.

Then the other day I got the dreaded ABC warning message, the left front strut collapsed, and leaked oil. I couldn't see any sign of a leak from the strut itself, but there was oil around the valve assy in front of the left front wheel, and the ABC reservoir was low. Since the whole car wasn't sitting low, I figured it was a local leak, and a pipe or the valve assy was to blame.

So I'm going to be treading in your famous footsteps over the next few days, and I'm attempting to overhaul the front ABC valve assy that can't be overhauled. I've bought 5 litres of Pentosin CHF11S and a comprehensive set of o-rings, but I'm wondering if I have the right ones?

O-rings seem to be characterised by the diameter and the section, and not much else. There are few other specs of any significance, yet a hydraulic system that works at 3000 psi in a V12TT engine compartment must be a pretty demanding environment. I Googled O-rings, and found that most of them are made of Nitrile Rubber. Pay a bit more and you can get Viton o-rings that work at higher temperatures, or you could have EPDM, Silicone, PTFE, FFKM or HNBR rings.

I doubt that Mercedes will be much help, but I wondered if you found any specific requirements for the O-rings? Were there any particular specs on the ones you used, or were they "just" O-rings?

Many thanks,

Nick

jnash

Nick,
In case Howard doesn't get back to you soon, the O-rings required can be obtained from this link and details below. If I were you, one thing you could do it call this company and ask them to explain the compatibility of these part numbers listed below against the o-rings you have in your possession. If you have ones that are compatible, it would be good to know a second source for the o-rings. I would like to get some myself and service my ABC blocks next time its down. So if this is the case, let us know where you sourced yours, else, we can split a min order.

http://www.marcorubber.com/orings.htm
(THERE IS A MINIMUM ORDER)

F1001-006 50 pcs @ $0.56 ea Stock
F1001-007 50 pcs @ $0.58 ea Stock
F1001-008 50 pcs @ $0.58 ea Stock
F1001-009 50 pcs @ $0.59 ea Stock
F1001-010 50 pcs @ $0.60 ea Stock
F1001-011 50 pcs @ $0.61 ea Stock
F1001-012 50 pcs @ $0.62 ea Stock

haoz129

Thanks Jim.

Nick,

I went to a local hydraulic system supplier. As expert they checked the valve and matched the o-ring for me. I believe mine are made of Teflon.

You are right o-rings are measured by ID and CS. Other than material they also have specific strength. I forget what term they used to describ the strength, but the orignal ones are 7 and the ones I got are 9. I could feel the new ones are harder when I squeezed them. But remember the valve will be more difficult to put in the block when harder o-rings are used.
Check this chart you could also have an idea about materials strength:
http://www.oringsusa.com/html/tensile_strength.html

O-rings are cheap so buy the best in terms of fit and quality. The o-ring set from hardware store seems not gonna work. To choose them I will rely on the o-ring/hydraulic specialist.

Always wait 15 mins then start to work on the ABC and loose the hose nut slowly to relieve the pressure. Plug the hoses after disconnect the valve then not to much fluid will lost.
But 5L pentosin seems tight if you want to flush the whole system at the same time. I used some to rinse the block and valve after the overhaul.

Good luck.

Howard

haoz129

Yes. Then knock them off one by one.

Welwynnick

Thanks for all the input guys, I really appreciate it.

However, there's one thing I'm trying to reconcile. I've been digging up all the information I can find on ABC maintenance, and there are two conflicting procedures here:

The first procedure has the ABC reservoir pressurized, and the second doesn't.

What I've gathered is that the ABC pump won't suck oil from the reservoir if there's air in the pump. Therefore you need to push the oil into the pump with a few psi behind it. I think this is the bleeding procedure.

Once the pump is full of oil, you can fill the reservoir at ambient pressure, and allow the pump to flush the fluid by itself. I think this is the flushing procedure.

Is that a reasonable interpretation?

Thanks, Nick

haoz129

Yes Nick, you are right.

The reason I had to pressurize the tank was because my pump sucked air during my flush process.

The process suggested by Jim is the official one used by MB. But, by using that process, you will have hard time to puring fluid into the tank without spilling because the car is Rodeoing up and down.

To make my life easier I will do the drain(suck fluild out) and fill then drive a few days adjusting height often. Then do it 2nd round with a ABC filter change. I know it is not 100% but I can accept the result especially when doing this ABC maintenance regularly. Easier and Star-independent.

Thanks.

Howard

Welwynnick

Thanks Howard. I had a crazy idea this week

Although I have a garage, I'm doing this work outside for the sake of space and access, and at this time of year its either cold, wet, dark - or all three.

So I was kinda thinking about getting a car lift for my garage - like they have in dealers. Sounds crazy doesn't it? But I took at look at new & used lifts in ebay, and they weren't that expensive - less than $2000. That's a couple of services at a stealer, and a fraction of the cost of a domestic garage - which then becomes something that is MUCH more useful and valuable.

Lying on my back in the cold and dark, I've always been jealous of mechanics being able to use professional lifts, but perhaps I don't have to be...

Is it such a daft idea?

I'll be back at work tomorrow.....

Nick

Welwynnick

I was kind of hoping that my leak WAS in the front valve block, as that's the sort of repair I'm comfortable with (I've stripped down power steering racks before now). However, I think my problem is not what I wanted it to be. It looks like I simply have a burst pipe - the one in front of the engine that doesn't seem to go anywhere. I tried taking lots of pictures, but had a great deal of difficulty getting anything useful. The first is a vertical view down the front of the engine - main pulley on the right and rad on the left. The broken pipe is smack in the middle. You can see that the hose has completely come out of the joint.

The second is a view from underneath; subframe on the left, radiator fan on the right, two pipes in the middle, and the broken one just above them in the center:

Everything is obviously covered in oil (and rain). You can't see from those pictures that that pipe turns under the engine and heads rearwards. I'm not sure where it comes out (its not clear from all the ABC diagrams I've seem on MBW) but it seems to be at the pressure regulator / damper near the steering rack. Is this the vibration damper pipe that I hear people talking about?

It would seem to be rather inaccessible. I've got a bad feeling about this. Can someone put me out of my misery?

Thanks, nick

haoz129

Nick,

Yes, the pipe is broken. And your ABC system is now open from this high pressure pipe.
In this case you have no pressure in the system and not much fluid left in the ABC reservior. You may still remember the loud BANG when it burst.

The broken pipe is called Pulsation Damper. Due to the connection and routing you need raise the engine a bit to replace it.
The other pipe you pointed out in the picture is the high pressure line. If you has doubt about its condition you may want to replace it at the same time.

The task is going to be a bit harder than you imagined and hope you have confident to carry on.

Thanks.

Howard

S600Keith

Wow, Nick. It looks as if you are going to be tearing down a boatload of stuff to get to that broken tubing. Hard to believe that it could fail there. Take if from one who has been in that tiny space between the engine and radiator three times in the past two months, it is no fun working in there. This may be a good opportunity for serious consideration of that garage lift you were looking at. Wishing you luck sir,

Keith

haoz129

Yes Keith, you are expert working in the tiny space now.
Yes Nick need go the similar route. I mean he may also need a new pump.

Nick,

If you ran the car after the pipe burst your pump is probably damaged by lack of lub. Sorry to say, but you may need a new pump.
Make it safe, the Pulsation Damper, high pressure pipe and a tandem pump all together. Then no need to go there twice.

Think about my input, but use your judgement, ok?

Howard

Welwynnick

Thanks for your input guys. It gives me a lot more confidence knowing that you're there. I guess I'm not looking forwards to what happens next, but I need to be sure about what I have to do. You've pretty much confirmed what I was afraid of.

I've owned and worked on a few V12's before - Jag XJ12, BMW 750 and N/A S600 - but the S600TT doesn't have ANY space left under there. Its a miracle of packaging, and fine as long as nothing goes wrong. Haha.

I've been doing a little research into what you might call "nightmare scenarios" like ABC faults, starter motor, engine mounts, etc. On the whole, all the ABC plumbing is actually well routed around not only the engine, but around the front subframe as well. So its a bit frustrating that the pulsation damper was routed THROUGH the compartment.

There are several jobs that are straightforward on other cars, but which need the engine out on the S600TT. I'm a pretty keen DIY'er, but I don't think I'd be able to tackle that myself.

Howard, when it comes to the pulse damper, you say I need to raise the engine a bit. Is that a LITTLE bit, small enough to leave the fuel, A/C, PAS, charge cooler, etc connected? Or do you think I need to de-pressurize and drain the fluids and disconnect everything first? (In which case I have something in mind....)

Merry Christmas, Nick

Welwynnick

While I'm pondering about the way forwards, I'll post some of the useful links and pictures that I found while researching ABC. You may have read them before, but its useful to have info together in one place. The first is particularly interesting, as it describes and illustrates a procedure to overhaul the valve blocks. It only has still pictures, and there's no mention of replacing the O-rings, but its good to see.

Edit: I've added a few more over the weeks; in fact there's a bottomless pit of ABC threads here:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...lpppppp-2.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...need-help.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220...2001-s600.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r230...placement.html
http://www.micro-tronik.com/mercedes...nsion_233.html
http://bayhas.com/mercedes/cl215/contents/abc.htm
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w215...block-hpe.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r230-sl-class/1635269-abc-valve-cleaning-diy.html
http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?p=664081#post664081
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...refully-2.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...ement-diy.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w215...sues-more.html
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w215...ml#post3572012
http://www.hopespare.com/trade-counters/

haoz129

Yes Nick. No need to disconnect those hoses.
Loose the engine mount from under then use a jack to raise.
Not that bad, but need to be careful not stretch any connections.
Only one engine oil line need to be disconnected which is around the hydraulic pipes.

Thanks and enjoy the holiday.

Howard

Welwynnick

Yeah, I'm pretty serious about the garage lift.
There are several main types, but there are good reasons against each type for domestic use.
One post lifts tend to have low capacity, and are expensive.
Two post lifts give good under-car access, but they need lots of height, and a floor with six inches of good concrete (domestic garages often have four).
Four post lifts restrict under-car access, but are less demanding on the floor. The rear posts are likely to foul most garage doors, though.
Scissor lifts are popular with classic car enthusiasts, but block under-car access.

There's no winning, Nick

Welwynnick

Thanks Howard,

I've been working on a procedure for replacing engine mounts WITHOUT removing the engine (by supporting the engine and dropping the subframe) but it sounds like I might not have to go that far.

It sounds like you have some specific knowledge - could you tell me which oil line?
You're right about that. A few years ago I replaced some engine mounts, and got a leaking oil cooler for my hamfisted efforts, so I'm rather wary about this now.

Cheers, Nick

haoz129

I don't have much knowledge about this engine either. When you are there please check carefully around both the damper and high pressure line. I'm sure you could figure it out which oil line need to be taken care of.

For engine mount, it is another story. The engine need to be raised much higher. But I have never been there either. I'm sure you will see me adding a post for replacing engine mount when mine are gone.

Howard

drewk88

Hello Nick and Howard,

I'm familiar with the pulsation damper hose which burst on your car.
From the capped end it runs toward the passenger side horizontally, then appears to turn rearward just as it goes past the crankshaft pulley. However it actually does a U-turn there and goes back toward the driver side, then up to the ABC pump. The high pressure output of the pump is a banjo bolt on the underside of the pump and there are two banjos stacked, through which passes the single banjo bolt. The end of your popped hose is the lower of the two stacked banjos.

I cannot warrant the following, but when I examined the routing during a recent ABC pump replacement on my 2004 S600 TT, it appeared to me that I would be able to replace this hose without raising the engine at all, the most difficult part being the tight ratchet access to the banjo bolt from under the front side of the pump, just as had to be done during the pump replacement.

BTW, for anyone contemplating pump replacement, I can offer two very helpful tips in hindsight.
First, for the banjo bolt, use a 3/8" ratchet which has extra fine teeth in the ratcheting mechanism i.e. small angle between clicks, and with minimum backlash. This seemed even more essential for the reassembly compared to the dis-assembly. Secondly for the 10mm e-torx bolt which fastens the pump from the rear side, it may be easier to turn with an e-torx box end wrench having a vertical offset, i.e. an S-shaped bend in the shank near the box end, as viewed from the side of the wrench. I didn't have one, so I had to use a 10mm e-torx socket clamped in vise grips to get the offset, and turning and re-clamping the socket 1/12 revolution each time. None of my 3/8" ratchets would fit into the available space.

Should you find the part number for this pulsation damper hose, kindly post it here because I would like to get one to have on hand.

Good luck,

Drew

Welwynnick

Drew,

You made my day. Thanks for the invaluale info - that's better than a Christmas present! While realising that its something I'm likely to have to face up to one day, I didn't fancy having to lift the engine right now.

I appreciate your comments about the ABC pump. I've heard lots of people talk about how difficult the access is. I've owned twenty cars with V-engines (which is unusual in Europe). Five of them were V12's, so I'm used to difficult access, but I have to say that the V12TT is the biggest challenge of them all.

Merry Christmas,

Nick

drewk88

Nick,

You're most welcome.

Hopefully your ABC pump did not empty the large reservoir enough to suck air.
If it didn't, then your pump may be OK. Fortunately, in the large ABC reservoir, the pump feed tube is at the very bottom of the tank. In the power steering reservoir, it is about in the middle of the tank vertically, so it's much easier to allow air to enter the system on the power steering side.

When I return home, I hope to find the time to write a step by step guide for the ABC pump replacement. I have the WIS, but even with that, I had confusing and incomplete information. The procedures for refilling and bleeding both the ABC and power steering sides of the pump are presented separately, so I chose to take some time to create my own combined procedure to assure the best outcome.

Welwynnick

Well, Christmas is out of the way, so I've had a bit of time to spend on the car. Its difficult enough just to see what you have to remove, let alone get access to it. What's needed is the hindsight of having finished the job before you start. So although I'm a long way from being done, I know that a burst pulsation damper hose isn't uncommon, and a few more people may be treading this path in future.

In which case, they might like to know that contrary to many posts, you DON'T need to lift the engine to remove the hose from under the front of the engine. I've stolen some excellent pictures from Oxygen from elsewhere, as he was working on a clean car.

With the two front lower aprons removed, lift the cooling fan/shroud up a few inches (difficult to remove completely on an S600) and dismount a few water and hydraulic hoses to make some room. Remove the peculiar 3-piece ally bracket that's mounted to the subframe just below the crank pulley. That gives enough room to get at the ETorx bolt that holds the hose bracket. An 8mm ring spanner works just fine.

Of course, I may yet need to lift the engine to access the ABC pump banjo union, but I'm trying to find that out now. I've removed the LHS air filter assy and the ABC/PAS fluid reservoir, and I'm wondering if I need to remove the coil pack as well. I finally managed just to see/touch the output banjo, and it looks like a *****.

Drew - if you're still reading - do you recommend approaching this from above or below?

Cheers, Nick









Nick