whitecoatgeek

I know this topic has been covered few times before but I still dont have a very clear picture. I have placed an order for GL350 and now I am finding out that MB may void warranty if diesel used has more tha 5 % biodiesel in it. I know that IL has B11 to B20 and I can't figure out exactly what blend is being sold in MO. I have visited few gas stations and there is no mention on the pump except that its Diesel # 2 and nobody who works at these gas stations seems to know anything either.

What do you guys think? Does using B20 makes any diffence in real world? What problems can I expect in real world usage? And most importantly has anyone had any warranty issues due to use of B > 5 %?

PunjabiM3

Excellent question as I have wondered the same thing living in both AZ and TX. I think if MB denies warranty due to this, it is absolutely absurd as it is not the customers fault that gas stations and companies are toying with the biodiesel content. If I put diesel in from Shell, QT, Chevron, heck even Circle K or Valero then it should not be my problem. Is diesel really that bad in the US in various regions?

JimBarnhart

This is a complicated topic so sorry for the long post.

First, let's talk about what B11-B20 might do to your vehicle. I tend to think that given the fact that not all diesel manufacturers have approved up to 20% diesel that there is some risk of doing damage to the engine. For reference, here's my source of OEM positions. http://www.biodiesel.org/using-biodi...-summary-chart
There's some pretty big manufacturers at 5% maximum (Freightliner, Kenworth, Audi, VW, MB,etc). It makes me nervous. Here's an article published by a magazine that promotes biodiesel that might be helpful.
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/art...with-biodiesel


The second consideration is why all the biodiesel? This is being run mostly from the midwest corn/soybean belt. There have been mandates on ethanol blends on gas in many states and it has revitalized the farming community extensively. $10 bushels of corn were common a few years ago as a result of this mandate, compared to $2 per bushel before that. Farmers are putting corn into every acre, sometimes destroying natural habitat - the money is just too great to ignore. The soybean association is doing the same with biodiesel.

The next consideration is legal implications. I bought a Mercedes Benz in the state of Minnesota. The state passed a B20 mandate in 2009 - well before I bought my 2013 GL350. Fortunately the mandate hasn't been enacted due to several issues, including labeling at the pump so it's all less than 5% biodiesel. I personally don't think that Mercedes should be selling diesels in Minnesota unless they plan to honor the warranty. If B20 was in effect here, just the simple task of your dealer filling the tank at a local pump for you to take initial delivery at purchase would void the warranty! Consumer protection laws are applicable here. There is some precedent from VW and Audi honoring warranties in Illinois after they went to B11.

I do follow the Minnesota situation. Once the mandate is put into effect, it won't appear at the pump until 9 months later. I intend to write MBUSA and ask for their position before it appears at the pump. Given the law was passed before I bought my vehicle I'll expect them to honor the warranty, or find a solution for me to get to a gas version. I will also write my congressman and ask them for help, but my personal opinion is they'd fault the car manufacturer and they'd be right. But maybe they will help influence MBUSA.

JimBarnhart

I got this from a contact I have found at the Minnesota department of agriculture.

Has any of the Illinois owners seen this pamphlet? It doesn't really say they will honor the warranty.

JimBarnhart

This thread has caused me to get an update on the Minnesota situation. The law has been enacted now, and per the law Minnesota stations will be required to have B10 (10% biodiesel) in their pumps from July 1st through the end of October 2014. Our law only requires is during the summer months. I'm not sure why, maybe the winter blend diesels don't tolerate the bio?

Ed Wolcott

It is my understanding that the higher percentages of biodiesel will void the warranty because there is no API or SAE standards for lubricity and other characteristics of biodiesel, although I believe the API and SAE are both working on this. With good biodiesel, 20% should be no problem, but with poorer quality fuel you could have real problems. As a result, the percentage of biodiesel is supposed be labelled on the pump in most states. And, due to the problems with it, there should be plenty of stations around who carry either B5 or straight diesel.

I have known of people who have run into real trouble with poorly controlled biodiesel, so I hope the quality of it is standardized soon.

a330captain

The problem I have encountered is finding out what is delivered to the station.
The owners/operators don't know
The pump is not required by law to tell you (unless it a BP and has the sticker showing that its off brand).

So I ended up calling BP in IL talked with a Product Engineer and got the low down on BP fuel for the USA stations.

Found out that the 6 stations in my local area do not blend fuel and in the Raleigh area its a Max of 5% but mostly Pure.
He did say that some BP stations will purchase OFF BRANDED fuel which maybe anything from B6 to B20 But Pump MUSTBE labeled as off brand SEE PHOTO

dave2001auto

I though that the issue of biodiesel was not lubrication but oxidation and gumming with age and/or heat.

IMHO: No manufacturer should be allowed to sell consumer product that can not be serviced (fuel and maintained) without violating the law. That should include that the proper fuel is legal.

whitecoatgeek

I checked few other gas stations here in St. Louis area and found that all are selling Diesel # 2 which contains < 5 % Biodiesel. Please correct me if I am wrong. I also spoke to the service manager at the dealership and he told me that they had not seen any diesel pessenger cars with biodiesel problems in their dealership but he has had few sprinters coming in with issues. He told me that infrequent use of B20 shouldn't cause problem but did admit that use of B20 can void your warranty if fuel is the cause of problem. They do have equipment which measures the fuel quality.

After reviewing everything I have decided to stick with GL350. (Fingers crossed)

JimBarnhart

I have started some communication with my dealer and MBUSA. I will let you know what I find out.

fabbrisd1

In MO grade#2 pump diesel by statute is 5%, with summer max 10% bio allowed... MO does have 20% bio available ONLY at special stations designated and alllowed under MO Alternative Fuels stature.

Yes - intrastate use of Sprinters many operators will take advantage of lowest priced disel in the market areas they pass thru courtesy of intranet price search - and when operating in areas like Illinois - with absolutely no concern about the quality of fuel they are using.

Yes - ongoing use of B15/B20 will frack you up - and frankly fuel standards for higher B-Count here in the US is absolutely lousy.

Euro has been way farther down the diesel road than the US - and frankly the Bio-Debate some view simply as state's varying their regulations to allow higher Bio with state tax breaks to allow lower cost fuel to "capture" more fuel business on heavy rigs passing thru that state... bowling for higher retail tax dollars on higher fuel volume..

Phil.mount

This past Sat we had a MB Club event at new Dealer in Rochester, Mn. I asked the service Mgr about the 10% biodiesel coming? he said he was in communication with MB about it and could have information in net 2 weeks or so. he thinks they will lean towards more frequent fuel filter and oil changes but that is not an Official MB answer yet.

JimBarnhart

I received an e-mail from my service adviser, they are checking to see what MB will do here.

I also received a call from MBUSA. She stated that obviously the warranty would be in effect for all coverage non-related to fuel. She said that should I encounter a problem that is believed to be caused by use of unapproved (i.e. greater than 5% biodiesel) they would handle these on a case by case basis.

In my opinion here, they will look at your MB purchase history, your service history at MB dealerships, whether you purchased an MB extended warranty, etc in deciding how to help out. But there's not a definitive position. Some opinions seem to think 10% or even 20% biodiesel doesn't impact engines, others seem to think it will clearly cause issues, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure how this makes me feel. I'm obviously exposed, but not sure to what extent. I'm a loyal customer, having owned 3 MBs over the last 12 years, have purchased extended warranties, and have done all my service at my dealership.

I'll let you know if I hear anything from my dealership as well.

dave2001auto

Seems like a gamble either way. With 4 diesel MBZ all without extended warranties, I expect the diesel fuel dealers, government and MBZ to come to some agreement on what ULSD diesel #2 specifications and not to void the warranty or foul up the fuel system. Not only biodiesel but also ethanol-diesel to be concerned about. No one really seems to know what and how much are being put into the tank.

fabbrisd1

In Illinios, where B20 and higher are widespread due to Illinois State legislative tax breaks - it has been commonly reported those customers wanted a BlueTech disel have to do a sign-off form on delivery that acknowledges they understand Mercedes will NOT warranty problems that are caused by higher-level bio-diesel...

JimBarnhart

Interesting, I can't imagine people would actually sign that document. Thanks for buying this new $75K plus vehicle - oh yeah, did we forget to tell you we won't warrant the engine?

I'll be weighing my options. While engine failures have been rare in my years on these forums, the ones that have happened usually came with well over $10K repair bills. I don't like holding that risk, in fact that's why I have bought extended warranties.

Perhaps it's time to consider the upcoming Audi Q9. Has anyone heard any details about it? I believe Audi is honoring warranties on their diesels using >5% bio. Don't think I can wait as long as the BMW X7 (2017 MY?) And a gasser GL450 or GL550 would be options, but not sure I like rewarding Mercedes for their position on this situation.

JimBarnhart

My dealer confirmed that MB requires 5% or less biodiesel and any issue considered caused by using greater than 5% biodiesel would not be covered by warranty or extended warranty.

dave2001auto

Are we to play mercedes bluetec roulette each time we will up with diesel?

I guess we can test the diesel every time we fill up, but the test might take a few hours to perform. :{

Todd in PA

As I have a '14 GL 350 BT on order, expected delivery in a few weeks, I have followed this thread with interest. I called Mercedes Benz customer service this morning and the person there confirmed that any engine damage occurring due to using a biodiesel blend greater than 5% would void the engine warranty. When I mentioned that my state of Pennsylvania has passed a law that mandates a higher percent of biodiesel in the near future she didn't seem to care. I asked her how could Mercedes Benz sell a vehicle when there won't be any approved fuel for it in the future, she said that they might not sell the diesel in PA!
I cross shopped the BMW X5 diesel and therefore gave them a call this morning as well. At first they too said a max of 5% biodiesel would be allowed. When I mentioned I was incredulous that BMW was bringing out 5 new diesel models to the US, where biodiesel blends greater than 5% were mandated by law, I was put on hold and the BMW rep said he checked with higher ups and they said all the BMW diesel engines at present will run on 11% biodiesel blend and they are making provisions for greater percentages as time goes on. He said they might accomplish that with some type of additives. All in all a much more positive and thoughtful response form BMW then Mercedes Benz. I am worried.

Mbenz260e

This is not good news. I guess I need to make sure I have a enough fuel before entering PA in the future?

JimBarnhart

and Illinois, and Minnesota, not sure how many others.


As an aside, I talked to a 'fuel expert' today on the phone. Interestingly enough he drives a 2012 ML350 Bluetec. He always uses B5 in the winter and B20 in the summer. He has 50,000 miles and has never had a problem. He also has a VW passat TDI and a VW jetta TDI and has never had a problem. Hardly a statistical sample and of course he is a biodiesel advocate so have to consider the source, right?

What was interesting is he said he's been following and researching Illinois for years as he's been evaluating biodiesel in Minnesota. He said he's talked with many, if not all MB dealers in Illinois. He said Illinois has been using 11% biodiesel for 10 years. In all his calls to dealerships he said he's only found a couple of engine failures, and it's very speculative whether it could be attributed to using biodiesel. In addition in 10 years of usage in Illinois he's never heard of Mercedes turning down a warranty repair because of biodiesel.

He seemed knowledgeable about diesel fuels, Mercedes, biodiesel, potential impacts to engines, etc. While he didn't come right out and say it, I got the impression that Mercedes is seeing what field issues surface over time before making a decision that higher percentage biodiesel is acceptable. He did say Mercedes was at the Minnesota congressional proceedings and they asked for a couple more years before implementing. The legislature said they passed this law almost 10 years ago, and the waiting is over.

I told him I feel like I am exposed to warranty coverage on engine failure because I run higher than B5 - whether B10 or B20 caused the damage or not. He understood corporate positioning and while he couldn't deny the exposure he felt that 1) the chance of engine failure on these engines is low, 2) the likelihood it was caused by biodiesel is lower, and 3) Mercedes will want to keep loyal customers by honoring a warranty instead of losing them for life.

I do feel better after talking to him. Not sure what I will do yet, but feeling better.

Todd in PA

With more web surfing I came up with this chart. It seems as though MANY manufacturers have already approved the use of B20 in their diesel engines and some are extensively testing (Audi/VW) for approval of B20.
Note that GM diesel powered trucks are B20 already. Interesting reading.
Here is the link........

http://www.biodiesel.org/using-biodi...-summary-chart

JimBarnhart

Sorry, I thought I shared that link. As you can see it's the German's that have an issue. However, both Audi and VW have warranted their engines for people in the state of Illinois.

JimBarnhart

Here's another where you can submit your location/state/zip code and see who is selling biodiesel and to what blend.

http://www.biodiesel.org/using-biodi...ons/retail-map

Todd in PA

Jim, your comments on this matter are greatly appreciated by me and I am sure, others as well. I can't for the life of me imagine that Mercedes Benz could possibly not have the technology to successfully address this (only potential) problem. I am more worried about their attitude than the actual chance of needing an engine repair covered under warranty denied by my use of the only available government mandated fuel in the future. I'd feel better if Mercedes Benz were reassuring their customers, not telling them "too bad for you, our policy is steadfast, damage due to use of biodiesel blends greater than 5% is not covered under your warranty"