MTrauman

I am starting this new thread since we have a person (WEBSRFR) that continues to "Advertise" for Tesla on MBWORLD. He/she continues to be off topic and tell us MB enthusiasts why one should buy a Tesla.


Hopefully this thread can atleast discuss any negatives about the Model S.

Heisenberg

I have a friend trying to talk me into one, rather than an S Class. Tesla owners tend to be pretty opinionated about the cars. I've considered it and it has its advantages and my interest did increase somewhat after a ride in his car, although I still don't expect to jump on the EV bandwagon.

I was amazed at how fast it is - the P85D-L model accelerates like a supercar at any street speed, butt dyno said about 2.7sec to 60mph. On the outside it is pretty nice looking for a 5 seat sedan, and the recent 'refresh' which basically eliminated the grill is an improvement, although it needs more extensive changes to avoid becoming stale. The standard and upgraded factory turbine-type wheels are not at all to my taste; I'd definitely have to purchase a good aftermarket wheel set.

Inside it is a very mixed bag, and ultimately why I probably won't buy one. The interface is mostly fantastic, and far superior to any infotainment system I've seen from Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc. Being able to overlay Google Earth satellite imagery on the navigation is a wonderful feature that I wish Mercedes and BMW would implement; other than Tesla, I believe only Audi offers this. The autonomous driving feature was impressive for sure, but I believe most of the functionality is already available from Mercedes in the form of Distronic Plus and Steering/Lane Assist. I would not use it for daily driving anyway, although it is nice to have it for short periods of time. It seemed that running a red light or stop sign would be very, very easy to do in the Tesla running in autopilot mode.

Alas the materials used and overall look of the interior does not cut it... lots of plastic pieces everywhere. The leather and seats - which were the latest upgraded ones - are far inferior compared to the S Class, even without a designo upgrade. On the lower end 70kWh models it is passable, but in a loaded P85D-L running about $140,000 it just doesn't compete with the S class, or even the BMW 5/6/7 class. I did not at all like the 'yacht galley' between the front seats where a transmission tunnel would normally be. Maybe for a female carrying a large purse it would be desirable, however. It seems the latest production S includes a console filling the space.

Financially, right now the $7500 tax credit is still available. Here in Arizona that would basically pay for the sales tax. Also in this greedy state, annual registration fee is based on 1% of the assessed value for a plug in EV, rather than 60% for gasoline cars... which means the cost of registration is about $35 a year, rather than over $2000 a year for a S class. Tesla also offers cheap (1.7% APR) financing which is better than you can get with a Mercedes, from either a private bank or CU or certainly MBF. Time will tell how resale values will be, although so far Tesla is holding value considerably better than S Class, which is known to be a quickly depreciating vehicle. Cost per mile is of course less too, with a 300 mile range costing about $7 in electricity compared with $40 in gas; to most who can afford these vehicles that savings is fairly trivial. I'm not 'green' at all so could care less about emissions and fossil fuel use. An pure EV here does allow use the HOV lanes, which is definitely a plus if driving on the highly during rush hour.

PaulE550

Thanks for creating a new, hopefully more balanced thread.

PeterUbers

I don't think the reliability and dealer network for malfunctions is all there yet. Many of the interior parts are sourced from Benz but I agree it's underwhelming compared to an s class or hell even a new 2017 c class or e class

The exterior is bland to me and much of why I buy a car is ego driven, as it is for many people and tesla doesn't do anything for my ego yet, I am way more impressed with current Mazda styling and Infiniti styling than this $140,000 tesla.

The tech is great in the tesla but I just don't care much about the tech in a tesla enough to validate overlooking all the things I don't like about it to ultimately buy a tesla

And... $2000 a year to register an s class in Arizona??!!! Every year or just the first year?

Quadcammer

looked at a model S at the mall the other day.

1. Styling looks terribly dated at this point. Its not ugly per se, but it is nowhere near a classic look.

2. The ipad in the dash interior is not for me.

3. God the build quality is dog****. Panel gaps all over the map, trim and weatherstripping sloppily installed, plastic everywhere, etc etc. It may have a premium price, but a premium product it is not.

4. The thing is fast off the line. Above 80, less impressive. Nevertheless, its a quick car. I don't care for the ride quality.

fathom6

I am currently in market to purchase a car for my daughter. We are considering a used Model S or a Nissan Leaf and also have looked at Toyota Prius. We have a longstanding experience driving Teslas (and sadly getting rid of them). Our chatty next door neighbor currently has a P85D so we get a pretty good inside peek as well.

1. We personally like the exterior styling, but that alone The quality is another story, it is terrible, absolutely not worth the price. Opening the hood reveals cheap plastic compartment areas that close/open sloppily. The entry doors are very light-weight and just miss that newer car feel. If its priced brand-new $50K I like it, if its a cent more, it is over-priced.

2. Test driving various models show that the company is really in its infancy / research & development phase. Various models P85(d)(+) drive differently, feel different, with no consistency / that brand feel is lacking. If you drive a Toyota's you recognize that brand feel (Corolla vs Camry ride), in Tesla you dont get that consistency. P85 (terrible steer) seems a different brand altogether than a P85+ (much better steer).

3. The driver/passenger drive comfort is good, but the back seats reveal a sloppy ride experience not behooving a car sold at this price.

4. Driving range .... ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE. You park your car at night with battery pack at 58%. In morning you wake up, finding it at 52%. You scratch your head, start the car, travel a mile, stop and pick cup of coffee, WTF, the drive range now shows 44%. The battery technology, the charging technology, the measurement technology is simply not at par. That constant fear of forgetting to re-charge batteries at night. That constant fear, of the un-reliability of charging systems, it takes all the fun out of an electric car.

5. Rattles. Hate them. I say on a car priced above 15K there should be no rattles. In Model S at 100K, rattles/squeeks are unjustified. Aging is even terrible. 2 year old Model S's drive as if they'v been abused for 5 years. Rattles really show that the company is an infant and needs years and years of maturation.

In short, at its current price, Model S is a TOTALLY UNJUSTIFIED PURCHASE. You have to be a "believer" in the "cause", otherwise it just is not a value purchase. It is NOT a luxury car, at best a premium vehicle.

Heisenberg

So they assess non-EV cars at 60% of the base retail price the first year, and the tax is $2.80 per $100 of assessed value. It is recurring year-after-year, but each year they reduce the assessed value by about 10%.

The S63 I'm planning to get will be nearly $2750 the first year, dropping only 10% on each subsequent year. Crappy state to own an expensive car!

hyperion667

IMO they're just plain ugly!

Streamliner

I happen to think that the Model S is a truly beautiful car. I love the fact that you can order a plain, body colored roof and I like that it's made in America, but that's where the attraction ends.

One of the main reasons I drive a new S550, is because I feel it is probably one of the safest cars available at any price. MB has lineage in this respect. They have been engineering and perfecting safety systems for generations. The Tesla may, indeed, be a very safe car, but who knows for sure? It's a brand new company, still in its infancy. Nope, not good enough for me.

Seeing that little star leading the way at the top of my hood (where it BELONGS) constantly reminds me of the over 100 years of engineering excellence that went into my car and that's comforting, as 30 year old, poorly maintained, 5,000 pound, "lifted" SUV's, driven by texting, "No Fear" teenagers roar through stop signs.

Give up my S Class for a car made by a start up company? I don't think so.

El Cid

Article in the newspaper today about Tesla share prices dropping. I think Tesla has lost money for last five quarters?
When I hear Tesla, I think Kaiser although I only know about the car company historically.

MTrauman

The question really is "has Tesla ever made money?"


Tesla loses just over $19000 per car. If the government incentives (tax credits, etc) were to go away the company would be forced to take evasive action such as sell out to another car company or fold.


They are literally banking on the Model 3 deposits to help finance the company. To me this company is advancing the electric vehicle but will it survive as a standalone?


I will not buy a car, especially at the Model S price, knowing the company is unstable. This is the "bleeding edge" and I will not risk my car purchasing dollars on a Tesla under these circumstances.

400ixl

People have to understand the reason behind Tesla. It is an Elon Musk (Former Paypal founder) company (like SpaceX) and is not set up to try to be a corporate profit machine for stake holders like Mercedes Benz. It is his vision for changing the sustainability of the human race on earth whilst we work out how to populate other planets.

The people who buy them are either also interested in a car for a better planet or the Brand image that has been built around it (ala people who buy an Apple iPhone).

The Tesla Roadster was a silly price, but owners knew its limitations and flaws and that they were actually crowd funding the next model which would be better and cheaper. The same goes for the Model S as it is still over priced, but is crowd funding the X and the 3. The deposits for the 3 are funding the development of the next model not the manufacturing as that line is in place (although investment in capacity may be required to meet the demand).

These are the people who are willing to buy, to better the planet, or buy the brand value.

Now if I were looking to send the kind of money an new Type S or S class was and my driving style could fit within the range restrictions, I'd go with the Tesla S, purely for the crowd sourcing to further the technology. An S Class, be it more refined just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid, not that its a bad product (its a good product) but doesn't fit with my core values if I were in that position.

Its not necessarily about which is the better car for many people.

white_raven0

First of all, I am not a fanboy, but I do drive a Model S, because I think it's the best car for me. I never owned an EV before, never really thought about owning an EV and am not an environmentalist at all. Instead, I just like good cars that drive well and have great tech.

Certainly Model S has some significant issues. EVs have limitations that everyone knows about, so I won't expand on those matters. A Model S's interior is not on par with cars in similar price range. However it's not totally ****ty. Most certainly the interiors of the S class, 7 series, are far better (except technology related items). I mean I owned a 13 Lexus GS Fsport and I would say that interior was better than Model S (except technology related items). Build quality of the other premium brands are higher, paint quality better, sheet metal more solid etc, etc.

Regardless, I think the Model S is a terrific car and its technology and everyday driving dynamics are really amazing.

Overall, I really don't think Model S and Mercedes anything compete. MB is a luxury brand and makes luxury cars. The Model S instead competes with BMW 6 gran coupe and/or the Porsche Panamera. Compared with those cars, I am very glad I got a Model S.

I am and will likely not be in the market for a S class like car for the next 20 years. If I really liked a S class like car, I wouldn't be interested in a Model S at all.

S class is an ultimate luxury barge; Model S is on the other hand a techy and driving dynamics focused car... So I don't think they have similar audience in mind. For now, compared it is intended competitors (BMW 6 GC, Porsche Panamara), I think the model S is superior and therefore drive it.

I assume most S class lovers would not really be interested in those two cars either (poorer interiors, less space, ****ty back seats, poorer ride quality, more noise, etc).

PaulE550

Just an FYI El Cid. Tesla has yet to ever turn a profit. Most analysts covering the stock at this point don't expect the company to potentially be profitable until 2020 or 2021. Mind you, that all seems to be the most optimistic projection and discounts the fact that in order for Elon Musk to make his just raised production estimates, that NO ONE on Wall Street seems to believe is based on reality, Tesla will have to spend another billion+ to build another one or two lithium battery factories to support that production number. Can't expect to find another existing Toyota plant that he can pick up for a song ($40 million) and do a little re-tooling. Never mind the other costs regarding facility and staffing ramp-ups that would need to take place, and cost more money (further pushing out the day of profitability), to hit the new production targets Musk laid out. So that in a nutshell is why the stock price has been dropping.

PaulE550

I would have to say you are absolutely correct. Without the ongoing government supports, the timetable to sell the company to someone else (the business plan the whole time) would have to be moved up substantially. Musk is brilliant at creating businesses dependent on government rent-seeking. That is why he has managed to avoid the fate of all the other EV start-ups. He understands the importance of influencing public policy and cultivating political connections to advance his personal business goals. Great for him, but not necessarily so good for his customers long-term. I would really be surprised if Tesla was an independent car company in another five years. The company will be shopped, if that process hasn't already begun quietly, to another much larger and financially stable auto manufacturer. All to meet the future mileage standards of 54 mpg that he helped influence to create.

400ixl

They are using less than 1/4 of the capacity of the manufacturing factory, so no need find any new premises, and the mega battery factory has more than enough capacity to come on line as well. Tooling would be a pretty big expense to raise the capacity though.

Raw materials for all of the batteries in the timescale, that is a different challenge altogether.

Tesla is also a little different to many stocks as well. A lot of the shareholders are betting on Musk's potential and the long term. Many of the big stock holders are angel investors. It is currently trending down, but that is returning to norm from the hype of the Model 3 launch. Whether it will continue down is to be seen.

Its not done badly over the last 5 years.

400ixl

You are most likely right that once the company has done what Musk wants to achieve and that is to kick life into a sustainable EV model for the future, he will probably look to hand on custody. Not sure it will be to one of the legacy manufacturers though.

white_raven0

Humm suddenly going from car discussion to stock/finance discussion. On that front, I think the company is significantly overvalued.

Regardless, since it's now an established brand with significant brand prestige (probably equal to MB or Porsche), and with significant demand for its products, it ll be very attractive for a major manufacturer or other tech company to purchase. Really, just the supercharging (SC) network alone is worth purchasing the company for... Without supercharging, all other EVs are purely city commuters while Teslas can be driven across states fairly hassle free. Moreover the commercial opportunities around SCs are enormous... Just imagine, a bunch of affluent or at least upper-middle class people driving around and having to stop 40 mins instead of 5 mins to recharge. They need food, drinks and entertainment.

AMG 17GT

Yeah they used to do this in Ga. Happy Birthday 2000$ please and oh here's your sticker.....

South Carolina was best max sales tax 300$. And low yearlys

white_raven0

SC has low sales tax indeed, only 300, however we need to pay yearly property tax for cars. It's a LOT. I paid around $2500 last year... Yes this repeats every year, but fortunately depreciate with the car. It's the highest such tax I know of. I wish we could be like AZ where EVs get huge discount...

Newzchspy

I don't own one, BUT have driven several from S70 up to and including the P90D. Feels like an expensive golf cart to me and build quality is just above an EZ GO. Yes, they are very quick and should be with instantaneous torque, BUT it drops off rapidly after about 100 MPH and many "sports cars" can clean its clock at that point. Look at the recent Model X with the Gull Wing doors. Total disaster and a feature that no one was really asking for, BUT got anyway. The X Model 90D is running above $140,000 and while that doesn't scare some, its scares many. Secondary market is iffy too, as in where do you sell one and whats its value on a trade??? Dealers don't even know.

Wanna know how they really perform once you turn on headlights, iPad in dash, run the heat or A/C and radio and drive at highway speeds above 70 MPH. You'll see that the range is "dramatically" reduced from what is advertised. Figure 20-30 % reduction in range= range anxiety. Talk to people at the Superchargers and if they are honest, they'll give you the real scoop on owning the car and HOW FAR it'll really go on a full charge. Once again, range anxiety.

Charging is NOT as simple as it seems as many SC are overloaded or overcapacity with everyone trying to get their "free gas." You can get to 80% charge pretty quickly, as in the time it takes to get and eat lunch, BUT then that other 20% is OH so slow. What happened to battery swaps??? Idea in thought only???

Nice car, YES. Is it a car that someone really needs?? Probably not, as a Prius or Volt will get you to the same place without the range anxiety.

hyperion667

^that's banana's! "range anxiety"........never heard of that one.....but it makes perfect sense......I think I'd be susceptible

fathom6

It really makes your life to the worst. For small 5-10 miles trip it is great, as a secondary vehicle, it is nice, but no way I can again trust its range calculator. The miles drop rapidly sometimes for no reason. Imagine being at night with your wife and kids, on a highway ...

I personally feel it is RECKLESS to be driving a Model S, until Tesla improves the technology significantly, unless there are major advances in the field of physics, batteries, chargers... In Prius, at least I get the peace of mind.

WEBSRFR

Oh my god. The "RECKLESS" Tesla owners!

My god all those people who own a Tesla. How do they live with that car and drive hundreds of miles? Right?

You do realize the Tesla Model S is the most satisfying car ever sold with an owner satisfaction rate in the mid 90-percentile and higher than even for Porsche; right?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...faction-survey

If it makes you happy to think that Tesla owners are not happy with their cars, have at it but apparently the only people who have problems with owning a Tesla are those who don't own one

WEBSRFR

Oh and since this thread is about why you should not buy a Tesla Model S, here's my contribution. I'll add more contributions later

Don't buy a Tesla Model S if you want a car that can't be updated with the latest technology with a software update.

If you like driving a car that will not get better over time with new features don't buy a Tesla Model S -- it will drive you nuts to get in your car a year from now and then find your car has the same features of cars rolling out of the assembly line a year later.

You will also be horribly disappointed when you get software updates and the self driving capabilities of the car get better every couple of months.

The Model S is an awful choice for those who expect their car's technology, features, and user interface to stay the same and never get better