E43 tuning
01-16-2017, 08:40 AM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
There are a few like rentech. Their tune of the delos 276 (3.0 v6) gets similar results to the AMG tune. You could probably get more but with significantly more "side effects".
01-16-2017, 12:51 PM
#4
MBWorld Fanatic!
Personally I would leave this one be since its already "tuned". I'm sure its possible to extract more from it but at the cost of drivability, refinement and fuel efficiency. The E43 already pays for the AMG "tune" by way of a few miles per gallon. If I were looking for more, I'd bite my tongue and buy the cheapest E63. A fully loaded E43 is 90K, a striper E63 should not be much more (10K?).
I bought the E43 because for me it seems the perfect "sleeper" its fast enough to not have to fear 99% of the cars you will encounter on the road but still maintains day to day drivability. I think that anyone that thinks its a track worthy car will be disappointed.
Just think of it as a GTO or 442 that can handle and brake and it makes sense.
I bought the E43 because for me it seems the perfect "sleeper" its fast enough to not have to fear 99% of the cars you will encounter on the road but still maintains day to day drivability. I think that anyone that thinks its a track worthy car will be disappointed.
Just think of it as a GTO or 442 that can handle and brake and it makes sense.
01-16-2017, 01:55 PM
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Ended up being a moot point. My wife wanted a new s550 so I traded my 14 and my GLA45 for the new one. Got a really great deal on it and she's happy. That's all that matters I guess.
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01-16-2017, 04:51 PM
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
The E43 is faster than the s550 in all respects! Not a lot faster but faster nonetheless. Though the S has a little more HP and a bit more torque it weighs a lot more. That AMG sticker does have a little AMG sauce to go with it. Now that I think about it, AMG has worked it out so that all non AMG models are slower than any AMG regardless of what motor is being used.
01-16-2017, 05:17 PM
#9
Member
Thread Starter
I agree, I think what they've done by giving you the midpoint car, e43, is fantastic. Cadillac was doing that with VSport version of their cars. A bit of the look and juice but not an all out V. I was vary impressed with the e43 package but my wife is S550 lover I can' complain because I'm getting my G wagen in the spring that's been order. She thinks I'm nuts.
01-16-2017, 11:46 PM
#10
Member
Years ago manufactures tended to be somewhat sloppy in sizing turbo's to their intended power level. (the engine just being convenient a hot gas generator for the turbine) Bringing up boost was done crudely and with various results, some very negative.
Today, modern engine management systems are quite sophisticated, and provided the tuner has broken into the manufacture's ECU software, they have access to the full control feature set. This is often not the case, and piggy-back solutions of more or less sophistication are often employed. I for one, have only dealt with full code access to the OEM or special racing engine management systems. Here, again, we must pay attention to proper turbo sizing, and often physical parts replacement is needed for an effective re-tune of the power output.
The problem with doing anything more than a mild mid-range torque increase these days is compressor/tubine matching is itself a science and the manufactures usually are quite exact in getting as small a compressor as possible for efficiency, leaving little room for over boosting without adding unwanted high inlet temps. Thus, the compressor efficiency "map" is already running in the sweet spot. Bring up boost and you get out beyond the sweet spot and start making as much heat of compression as boost increase. That is what is hard on motors, the way it is often achieved, not the increased power output itself, all else being equal.
For this reason, often intercooler upgrades are really indicated, but not always specified. And, they are somewhat of a band-aid approach to not changing out the turbos. There is also the question of injector capacity, along with several other parameters the tuner must both understand, and know when to change. Slightly larger injectors, a larger compressor and a bigger intercooler are perfectly reasonable modifications when looking for more top end power. And, done right, you will get it with superb engine reliability.
Fuel economy, low end throttle response and drive ability may suffer, but you will have "The big power". I have seen a tuned, two liter, 1994 Subaru WRX-RA just demolish a BMW 550i off a stop light all the way into the top of third gear. So much for needing power to merge theory.
The other issue when over boosting stock turbo setups is maximum critical altitude, usually 5-6000 feet, after which the turbo motor ECU reduces power to avoid over-speeding the compressor (again inlet heat production risk, not so much a shrapnel risk) An up-rated engine power output will lower the critical altitude downwards, and if it lowers it into the 3-4000 feet range without the built-in safe guards of correct compressor sizing and engine management boost limits adjusted within the re-tune, excess heat can lead to engine damage through detonation when running a high 8-9,000 foot mountain pass. even though the retune seemed fine 'in town'.
While all these concepts discussed above are true, note it will apply to MB V-6 bi-turbo only as is know by experts with this particular engine. I do not know the latest M-B setups. I have known a great deal about Subaru and Porsche, but even this knowledge is becoming decades ago now. The point is to stick to reputable tuners, often of European origin, although there should be one or two in the states. Again, I know turbocharging principles, but nothing about MB activity in this area, but forewarned is forearmed.
Signed,
"Your friendly one-percenter."
Today, modern engine management systems are quite sophisticated, and provided the tuner has broken into the manufacture's ECU software, they have access to the full control feature set. This is often not the case, and piggy-back solutions of more or less sophistication are often employed. I for one, have only dealt with full code access to the OEM or special racing engine management systems. Here, again, we must pay attention to proper turbo sizing, and often physical parts replacement is needed for an effective re-tune of the power output.
The problem with doing anything more than a mild mid-range torque increase these days is compressor/tubine matching is itself a science and the manufactures usually are quite exact in getting as small a compressor as possible for efficiency, leaving little room for over boosting without adding unwanted high inlet temps. Thus, the compressor efficiency "map" is already running in the sweet spot. Bring up boost and you get out beyond the sweet spot and start making as much heat of compression as boost increase. That is what is hard on motors, the way it is often achieved, not the increased power output itself, all else being equal.
For this reason, often intercooler upgrades are really indicated, but not always specified. And, they are somewhat of a band-aid approach to not changing out the turbos. There is also the question of injector capacity, along with several other parameters the tuner must both understand, and know when to change. Slightly larger injectors, a larger compressor and a bigger intercooler are perfectly reasonable modifications when looking for more top end power. And, done right, you will get it with superb engine reliability.
Fuel economy, low end throttle response and drive ability may suffer, but you will have "The big power". I have seen a tuned, two liter, 1994 Subaru WRX-RA just demolish a BMW 550i off a stop light all the way into the top of third gear. So much for needing power to merge theory.
The other issue when over boosting stock turbo setups is maximum critical altitude, usually 5-6000 feet, after which the turbo motor ECU reduces power to avoid over-speeding the compressor (again inlet heat production risk, not so much a shrapnel risk) An up-rated engine power output will lower the critical altitude downwards, and if it lowers it into the 3-4000 feet range without the built-in safe guards of correct compressor sizing and engine management boost limits adjusted within the re-tune, excess heat can lead to engine damage through detonation when running a high 8-9,000 foot mountain pass. even though the retune seemed fine 'in town'.
While all these concepts discussed above are true, note it will apply to MB V-6 bi-turbo only as is know by experts with this particular engine. I do not know the latest M-B setups. I have known a great deal about Subaru and Porsche, but even this knowledge is becoming decades ago now. The point is to stick to reputable tuners, often of European origin, although there should be one or two in the states. Again, I know turbocharging principles, but nothing about MB activity in this area, but forewarned is forearmed.
Signed,
"Your friendly one-percenter."
Last edited by Mike__S; 01-17-2017 at 12:02 AM.
01-17-2017, 12:35 AM
#11
MBWorld Fanatic!
Years ago manufactures tended to be somewhat sloppy in sizing turbo's to their intended power level. (the engine just being convenient a hot gas generator for the turbine) Bringing up boost was done crudely and with various results, some very negative.
Today, modern engine management systems are quite sophisticated, and provided the tuner has broken into the manufacture's ECU software, they have access to the full control feature set. This is often not the case, and piggy-back solutions of more or less sophistication are often employed. I for one, have only dealt with full code access to the OEM or special racing engine management systems. Here, again, we must pay attention to proper turbo sizing, and often physical parts replacement is needed for an effective re-tune of the power output.
The problem with doing anything more than a mild mid-range torque increase these days is compressor/tubine matching is itself a science and the manufactures usually are quite exact in getting as small a compressor as possible for efficiency, leaving little room for over boosting without adding unwanted high inlet temps. Thus, the compressor efficiency "map" is already running in the sweet spot. Bring up boost and you get out beyond the sweet spot and start making as much heat of compression as boost increase. That is what is hard on motors, the way it is often achieved, not the increased power output itself, all else being equal.
For this reason, often intercooler upgrades are really indicated, but not always specified. And, they are somewhat of a band-aid approach to not changing out the turbos. There is also the question of injector capacity, along with several other parameters the tuner must both understand, and know when to change. Slightly larger injectors, a larger compressor and a bigger intercooler are perfectly reasonable modifications when looking for more top end power. And, done right, you will get it with superb engine reliability.
Fuel economy, low end throttle response and drive ability may suffer, but you will have "The big power". I have seen a tuned, two liter, 1994 Subaru WRX-RA just demolish a BMW 550i off a stop light all the way into the top of third gear. So much for needing power to merge theory.
The other issue when over boosting stock turbo setups is maximum critical altitude, usually 5-6000 feet, after which the turbo motor ECU reduces power to avoid over-speeding the compressor (again inlet heat production risk, not so much a shrapnel risk) An up-rated engine power output will lower the critical altitude downwards, and if it lowers it into the 3-4000 feet range without the built-in safe guards of correct compressor sizing and engine management boost limits adjusted within the re-tune, excess heat can lead to engine damage through detonation when running a high 8-9,000 foot mountain pass. even though the retune seemed fine 'in town'.
While all these concepts discussed above are true, note it will apply to MB V-6 bi-turbo only as is know by experts with this particular engine. I do not know the latest M-B setups. I have known a great deal about Subaru and Porsche, but even this knowledge is becoming decades ago now. The point is to stick to reputable tuners, often of European origin, although there should be one or two in the states. Again, I know turbocharging principles, but nothing about MB activity in this area, but forewarned is forearmed.
Signed,
"Your friendly one-percenter."
Today, modern engine management systems are quite sophisticated, and provided the tuner has broken into the manufacture's ECU software, they have access to the full control feature set. This is often not the case, and piggy-back solutions of more or less sophistication are often employed. I for one, have only dealt with full code access to the OEM or special racing engine management systems. Here, again, we must pay attention to proper turbo sizing, and often physical parts replacement is needed for an effective re-tune of the power output.
The problem with doing anything more than a mild mid-range torque increase these days is compressor/tubine matching is itself a science and the manufactures usually are quite exact in getting as small a compressor as possible for efficiency, leaving little room for over boosting without adding unwanted high inlet temps. Thus, the compressor efficiency "map" is already running in the sweet spot. Bring up boost and you get out beyond the sweet spot and start making as much heat of compression as boost increase. That is what is hard on motors, the way it is often achieved, not the increased power output itself, all else being equal.
For this reason, often intercooler upgrades are really indicated, but not always specified. And, they are somewhat of a band-aid approach to not changing out the turbos. There is also the question of injector capacity, along with several other parameters the tuner must both understand, and know when to change. Slightly larger injectors, a larger compressor and a bigger intercooler are perfectly reasonable modifications when looking for more top end power. And, done right, you will get it with superb engine reliability.
Fuel economy, low end throttle response and drive ability may suffer, but you will have "The big power". I have seen a tuned, two liter, 1994 Subaru WRX-RA just demolish a BMW 550i off a stop light all the way into the top of third gear. So much for needing power to merge theory.
The other issue when over boosting stock turbo setups is maximum critical altitude, usually 5-6000 feet, after which the turbo motor ECU reduces power to avoid over-speeding the compressor (again inlet heat production risk, not so much a shrapnel risk) An up-rated engine power output will lower the critical altitude downwards, and if it lowers it into the 3-4000 feet range without the built-in safe guards of correct compressor sizing and engine management boost limits adjusted within the re-tune, excess heat can lead to engine damage through detonation when running a high 8-9,000 foot mountain pass. even though the retune seemed fine 'in town'.
While all these concepts discussed above are true, note it will apply to MB V-6 bi-turbo only as is know by experts with this particular engine. I do not know the latest M-B setups. I have known a great deal about Subaru and Porsche, but even this knowledge is becoming decades ago now. The point is to stick to reputable tuners, often of European origin, although there should be one or two in the states. Again, I know turbocharging principles, but nothing about MB activity in this area, but forewarned is forearmed.
Signed,
"Your friendly one-percenter."
01-17-2017, 02:46 AM
#12
Member
I've known of the Rentec guys for years, highly competent tuners.
On the C400 or C450 vs. the E43, I be curious to check the turbo part numbers. It is very probable they have two different turbo sizes spec'd. I know has been true for other manufactures for what we would consider modest power increases. Intercoolers, as could injectors, may be larger. Pistons may also be different.
The best way to think about turbocharging is the motor is just a convenient hot gas generator for the turbine (which happens to pump air back into the engine to make its power) It is the turbine that makes the power, not the V-6. Sizing turbo parts are critical to good performance characteristics for any given power level.
At some point above 150 hp/L (450hp) they might consider oil spray cooling the undersides of the pistons, sodium filled exhaust valves and a few other little tricks, thermal stress being the issue with engine longevity at higher outputs. I imagine that at 130hp/l, Mercedes has stopped well short of needing such complex and more expensive design elements.
On the C400 or C450 vs. the E43, I be curious to check the turbo part numbers. It is very probable they have two different turbo sizes spec'd. I know has been true for other manufactures for what we would consider modest power increases. Intercoolers, as could injectors, may be larger. Pistons may also be different.
The best way to think about turbocharging is the motor is just a convenient hot gas generator for the turbine (which happens to pump air back into the engine to make its power) It is the turbine that makes the power, not the V-6. Sizing turbo parts are critical to good performance characteristics for any given power level.
At some point above 150 hp/L (450hp) they might consider oil spray cooling the undersides of the pistons, sodium filled exhaust valves and a few other little tricks, thermal stress being the issue with engine longevity at higher outputs. I imagine that at 130hp/l, Mercedes has stopped well short of needing such complex and more expensive design elements.
Last edited by Mike__S; 01-17-2017 at 02:51 AM.
01-17-2017, 08:12 PM
#13
Junior Member
I've known of the Rentec guys for years, highly competent tuners.
On the C400 or C450 vs. the E43, I be curious to check the turbo part numbers. It is very probable they have two different turbo sizes spec'd. I know has been true for other manufactures for what we would consider modest power increases. Intercoolers, as could injectors, may be larger. Pistons may also be different.
The best way to think about turbocharging is the motor is just a convenient hot gas generator for the turbine (which happens to pump air back into the engine to make its power) It is the turbine that makes the power, not the V-6. Sizing turbo parts are critical to good performance characteristics for any given power level.
At some point above 150 hp/L (450hp) they might consider oil spray cooling the undersides of the pistons, sodium filled exhaust valves and a few other little tricks, thermal stress being the issue with engine longevity at higher outputs. I imagine that at 130hp/l, Mercedes has stopped well short of needing such complex and more expensive design elements.
On the C400 or C450 vs. the E43, I be curious to check the turbo part numbers. It is very probable they have two different turbo sizes spec'd. I know has been true for other manufactures for what we would consider modest power increases. Intercoolers, as could injectors, may be larger. Pistons may also be different.
The best way to think about turbocharging is the motor is just a convenient hot gas generator for the turbine (which happens to pump air back into the engine to make its power) It is the turbine that makes the power, not the V-6. Sizing turbo parts are critical to good performance characteristics for any given power level.
At some point above 150 hp/L (450hp) they might consider oil spray cooling the undersides of the pistons, sodium filled exhaust valves and a few other little tricks, thermal stress being the issue with engine longevity at higher outputs. I imagine that at 130hp/l, Mercedes has stopped well short of needing such complex and more expensive design elements.
01-17-2017, 08:16 PM
#14
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ecu tune; edok tcu tune; BB intakes; dyno tuned
